Can you sell a Doom II Wad you created commercially?

[Havok]

Do you know of anybody who sold a Doom II WAD they made commercially as a standalone game (after the 1990s)? Did they sell well? I'm not expecting to get rich but it would be cool if I could make at least a year's salary.

 

GZDoom is licenced under the GPL so I assume that means you can sell it commercially and bundle it with a WAD you created? But what about the original Doom II textures used in my WAD, is it legal to include those and the music and sound effects? 

 

The Gloome Source Port seemed to suggest you could sell a WAD you made using the original Doom II textures. Is that correct?

 

A video game developer who published their own game commercially (nothing to do with Doom) said that under copyright law, in video games if you change a texture even very slightly then you're aren't breaking copyright. Haven't the original Doom 2 textures been upgraded with high resolution textures in GZDoom or is there some other high resolution texture pack that can be commerically used? And would that count as changed textures?

Edited February 3, 2023 by Havok

[Somniac]

You can use the GZDoom engine as the basis for a commercial game with custom assets, sure, because it was created following the release of the Doom source code, but using/distributing any id software assets as a commercial package will definitely get you in legal trouble.

[Stabbey]

No, you cannot sell a Doom 2 WAD. The guy(s) who made "The Lost Episodes of Doom" got away with it because they were selling the Strategy Guide for the "free" WAD which came bundled with it.

 

26 minutes ago, Havok said:

I'm not expecting to get rich but it would be cool if I could make at least a year's salary.

 

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Oh, you're a funny guy!

 

It's the year 2023. Why would someone pay to play your WAD file when there are literally hundreds of thousands of free ones out there already?

 

[Nefelibeta]

1 minute ago, Stabbey said:

No, you cannot sell a Doom 2 WAD.

I'm curious if you can just sell map datas and nothing else.

[Andrea Rovenski]

1 minute ago, Stabbey said:

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Oh, you're a funny guy!

 

It's the year 2023. Why would someone pay to play your WAD file when there are literally hundreds of thousands of free ones out there already?

 

There's no reason to be rude. The idea of buying a bigbox copy with awesome artwork for a wad I love (like sigil) should be encouraged. It's a source of creativity. 

[Stabbey]

2 minutes ago, Andrea Rovenski said:

There's no reason to be rude. The idea of buying a bigbox copy with awesome artwork for a wad I love (like sigil) should be encouraged. It's a source of creativity. 

 

I'm not being rude. I'm laughing at the idea that someone thinks they could make a year's salary selling a Doom WAD. Am I really supposed to treat that seriously? Pointing out the the indisputable fact that there are thousands of free WADs out there already is also not being rude.

[Yugiboy85]

I guess if you have completely original graphics (sprites, textures, gfx, etc...) and sounds/music THEN, perhaps you can. But, even then, I dunno. AND OF COURSE MAPS, Original levels 

[Wyrmwood]

Yeah there are some recent games on Steam like Hedon and Hands of the Necromancer. Don't know if the devs got rich though, hopefully made enough to actually pay themselves something but I'm guessing it's more along the lines of make a living doing something you love. All assets need to be your own though, textures, sprites, sound effects, music, etc.

[Redneckerz]

1 minute ago, Stabbey said:

 

I'm not being rude. I'm laughing at the idea that someone thinks they could make a year's salary selling a Doom WAD, especially given the indisputable fact that there are thousands of free WADs out there already.

I suppose a custom IWAD or IPK3, such as Selaco or Supplice, might get there.

 

GZDoom is port of call for that tho.

[Stabbey]

Just now, Redneckerz said:

I suppose a custom IWAD or IPK3, such as Selaco or Supplice, might get there.

 

GZDoom is port of call for that tho.

 

Sure. But Havok was specifically asking about using Doom II assets like textures, music, and SFX.

[Mr Masker]

I guess if it was scrubbed clean of any Doom 2 stuff (textures, sounds, etc), any copyright-ridden assets and the engine for it was ok with being used for a commercial use, then maybe. I might be missing other stuff to look out for though.

[Stupid Bunny]

43 minutes ago, Havok said:

But what about the original Doom II textures used in my WAD, is it legal to include those and the music and sound effects? 

absolutely it isn’t, in fact technically we’re not even supposed to use e.g. Ultimate Doom or Plutonia assets in the Doom II wads we release here. Nothing from the commercial games is supposed to be bundled with them. You would either have to create all your own assets from scratch, including palettes and all that, to have a functioning IWAD with no overlap or necessity of DOOM2.WAD or any of the other commercial IWADs; or else you could release maps or partial conversions using homemade assets that still require the commercial wads to run, which would be a much harder sell especially if a year’s salary is your target. Not impossible, mind you, but you’d have to make something pretty damn cool to convince people to throw down money on it.

 

[Havok]

The reason I ask is that the Gloome Source Port seemed to suggest you could sell a WAD you made using the original Doom II textures. 

 

A video game developer who published their own game (nothing to do with Doom) said that under copyright law, in video games if you change a texture even very slightly then you're aren't breaking copyright. Haven't the original Doom 2 textures been upgraded with high resolution textures in GZDoom or is there some other high resolution texture pack that can be commerically used? And would that count as changed textures?

[Lucius Wooding]

I'll go even farther and say if a year's salary is your goal, any kind of game dev isn't likely to be a productive use of your hours unless you got hired on to a big developer. You'd be considerably better off taking up cabinet making, throwing pottery, or acting as a guide dog for the blind. If you want to still develop games, by all means do so; but assume you'll make nothing because that's a lot more realistic. There are thousands of talented people lining up to give out the proverbial milk for free.

 

As for using anything remotely similar to the original Doom assets, I think you'd torpedo any kind of goodwill from the community in an instant even if technically you legally could. Remember this community is going to be the most interested in a Doom-like game and it isn't too active to support a large number of buyers; and also has been known to pirate commercial releases on principle from time to time. A classic Doom inspired FPS is probably not going to be commercially viable unless your name is John Romero. Make a cancerous and addictive smartphone game and then port it to the Switch and your audience would grow from a few thousand to hundreds of millions of potential buyers. 

 

I speak as someone who once wanted to develop games and who knows talented people who walked that path. It's very easy to waste a lot of hard work and time and get nothing in return. However, if it's only a hobby, and you enjoy the creative process, you'll waste nothing. Don't waste an awesome hobby by trying to make it an awful career.

[roadworx]

if you want a lawsuit up the ass and 99% of the doom community to think you're a sleazeball, then sure thing

 

19 minutes ago, Havok said:

The reason I ask is that the Gloome Source Port seemed to suggest you could sell a WAD you made using the original Doom II textures. 

 

A video game developer who published their own game (nothing to do with Doom) said that under copyright law, in video games if you change a texture even very slightly then you're aren't breaking copyright. Haven't the original Doom 2 textures been upgraded with high resolution textures in GZDoom or is there some other high resolution texture pack that can be commerically used? And would that count as changed textures?

...nnnnnno. that's not how copyright law works. you can't just take other people's assets and slightly change them in order to skirt copyright law, that's illegal as shit. if that were the case, you'd be seeing all sorts of media plagiarizing other media and changing it ever so slightly in order to make a quick buck. whoever said that is an idiot with no idea how copyright works

[Kinsie]

17 minutes ago, Havok said:

The reason I ask is that the Gloome Source Port seemed to suggest you could sell a WAD you made using the original Doom II textures. 

You read it wrong. Possibly intentionally.

 

18 minutes ago, Havok said:

A video game developer who published their own game (nothing to do with Doom) said that under copyright law, in video games if you change a texture even very slightly then you're aren't breaking copyright.

They're wrong and stupid.

 

Also is your wad actually worth money compared to the thousands of other wads released for free. Look at the Selaco and Beyond Sunset demos and think very carefully before answering.

[dasho]

You'd have better luck developing a reputation as a good mapper and maybe trying your luck with Patreon or something, where people want to support you and not necessarily "pay for a WAD"

[Andrea Rovenski]

Is there a reason to judge someone for making a commercial product out of freeware? What is the advantage of this judgement? Does it help anyone or even answer the original subject? 

 

If someone loves making maps and wants to offer a paid-release that includes physical items, it sounds perfect. 

 

Since anyone buying would probably already own Doom2, there's no real reason to include any iwad assets in the first place. Look at the oldschool wads that sold in stores as an example. You needed Doom 2 to play it, therefore the market of buyers would know that and probably already have it. 

 

I doubt you'd make a year's salary, but if that's a long-term goal, as in make 50k over 20 years, why not shoot for it? 

 

Either way, I think the idea of making a bigbox or a book, something physical, is awesome and more wad authors should consider it. I'd happily buy a book or box copy of wads that I love if it meant directly supporting the authors and also getting a cool shelf item.

 

Either way, if the GOAL is to make money, I think it's a bad route to take. If there's a freely distributed wad, and you're selling a cool container for it as a fun creative project and if people love the work and want to spend, say, $10 on some cardboard and paper, it'd be a cool and mutually beneficial transaction.

 

As long as the goals remain clear, and money isn't the sole focus, there's no real downsides to offering things to people that are completely optional, or even say, the box version comes with a BONUS level of some sort. There's lots of room for creativity here and the discussion shouldn't be shut down immediately. 

[Pezl]

Even if you were selling your maps for money I doubt many people would buy it because you can play ten thousands and more maps for free.

[roadworx]

2 minutes ago, Andrea Rovenski said:

Is there a reason to judge someone for making a commercial product out of freeware? What is the advantage of this judgement? Does it help anyone or even answer the original subject? 

 

If someone loves making maps and wants to offer a paid-release that includes physical items, it sounds perfect. 

 

Since anyone buying would probably already own Doom2, there's no real reason to include any iwad assets in the first place. Look at the oldschool wads that sold in stores as an example. You needed Doom 2 to play it, therefore the market of buyers would know that and probably already have it. 

 

I doubt you'd make a year's salary, but if that's a long-term goal, as in make 50k over 20 years, why not shoot for it? 

 

Either way, I think the idea of making a bigbox or a book, something physical, is awesome and more wad authors should consider it. I'd happily buy a book or box copy of wads that I love if it meant directly supporting the authors and also getting a cool shelf item.

 

Either way, if the GOAL is to make money, I think it's a bad route to take. If there's a freely distributed wad, and you're selling a cool container for it as a fun creative project and if people love the work and want to spend, say, $10 on some cardboard and paper, it'd be a cool and mutually beneficial transaction.

 

As long as the goals remain clear, and money isn't the sole focus, there's no real downsides to offering things to people that are completely optional, or even say, the box version comes with a BONUS level of some sort. There's lots of room for creativity here and the discussion shouldn't be shut down immediately. 

you're misunderstanding what op is going or. selling a physical copy of your wad is fine - hell, @Scuba Steve did that for action doom 2, so there's even a precedent for it. however, op isn't talking about that. what they're asking is if they can take a standard doom 2 pwad and make it exclusively be a paid product, which you not only legally can't (it doesn't matter if it doesn't have doom 2 assets within the wad file, you can't go around making paid expansions of games without people's permission), but you also shouldn't. it's honestly just a terrible idea in general, considering that i really don't think op's maps would be good enough to justify paying for when there's boatloads of wads that're a thousand times better and made by people who don't wanna rob you of your money

[Redneckerz]

43 minutes ago, Stabbey said:

 

Sure. But Havok was specifically asking about using Doom II assets like textures, music, and SFX.

Yeah, i am aware. But this should be obvious, no?

 

The fact this very thread exists tells me it isn't, but come on lol

34 minutes ago, Havok said:

The reason I ask is that the Gloome Source Port seemed to suggest you could sell a WAD you made using the original Doom II textures. 

Where exactly does this say (I am also confused by how your phrased the name of Gloome as Gloome Source Port.)?

34 minutes ago, Havok said:

A video game developer who published their own game (nothing to do with Doom) said that under copyright law, in video games if you change a texture even very slightly then you're aren't breaking copyright. 

Which developer exactly is claiming this?

6 minutes ago, Andrea Rovenski said:

Is there a reason to judge someone for making a commercial product out of freeware? What is the advantage of this judgement? Does it help anyone or even answer the original subject? 

I am going to hazard a guess and say that OP has a reputation for asking the obvious or at the very least something that's easily findable.

 

Hey can i make a standalone version of these assets in a new game that is sold at a price is basically the question. The answer should be equally obvious.

 

I also think most of the smirk is because of the expectation OP introduces (A year salary). It is, at best, a simplistic outlook on indie gaming and at worst a gross expectation.

[Andrea Rovenski]

1 minute ago, roadworx said:

you're misunderstanding what op is going or. selling a physical copy of your wad is fine 

I believe the subject is open to interpretation, OP didn't really make many definitive claims in either direction in my opinion. 

[Havok]

15 minutes ago, Andrea Rovenski said:

Is there a reason to judge someone for making a commercial product out of freeware? What is the advantage of this judgement? Does it help anyone or even answer the original subject? 

 

If someone loves making maps and wants to offer a paid-release that includes physical items, it sounds perfect. 

 

Since anyone buying would probably already own Doom2, there's no real reason to include any iwad assets in the first place. Look at the oldschool wads that sold in stores as an example. You needed Doom 2 to play it, therefore the market of buyers would know that and probably already have it. 

 

I doubt you'd make a year's salary, but if that's a long-term goal, as in make 50k over 20 years, why not shoot for it? 

 

Either way, I think the idea of making a bigbox or a book, something physical, is awesome and more wad authors should consider it. I'd happily buy a book or box copy of wads that I love if it meant directly supporting the authors and also getting a cool shelf item.

 

Either way, if the GOAL is to make money, I think it's a bad route to take. If there's a freely distributed wad, and you're selling a cool container for it as a fun creative project and if people love the work and want to spend, say, $10 on some cardboard and paper, it'd be a cool and mutually beneficial transaction.

 

As long as the goals remain clear, and money isn't the sole focus, there's no real downsides to offering things to people that are completely optional, or even say, the box version comes with a BONUS level of some sort. There's lots of room for creativity here and the discussion shouldn't be shut down immediately. 

 

Yeah, it's not about making a living, would just be cool to get something back for the time invested, I'm mainly doing this for fun as a hobby. The main goal is to donate 50% of the profits to the Doom community in adding features to GZDoom such as realistic water, scenery, better monster textures, etc. What I was thinking was I would build a reputation making several well received WADs for free and then I would release my commercial game. 

 

I know on Steam you have a main game and then you have DLC addon packs for it. But what if you don't have the main game and just sell an IWAD, is that allowed?

[Gothic]

Unless your name is John Romero, no.

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

I'm pretty sure you can't. Somebody more knowledgeable please chime in but I remember hearing that Romero got away with selling SIGIL only because he was actually selling either a bunch of goodies with the pwad included, or a soundtrack with the pwad included. Not the actual pwad itself. Or am I wrong about this? Please correct me if I am.

 

edit: on the other hand, there are standalone games based on gzdoom that are just fine. Also, there's a ton of shovelware disks in the 90s and 2000s that were presumably also fine? I don't know.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Sneezy McGlassFace

[Andrea Rovenski]

5 minutes ago, Sneezy McGlassFace said:

I'm pretty sure you can't. Somebody more knowledgeable please chime in but I remember hearing that Romero got away with selling SIGIL only because he was actually selling either a bunch of goodies with the pwad included, or a soundtrack with the pwad included. Not the actual pwad itself. Or am I wrong about this? Please correct me if I am.

This is my understanding as well. 

 

7 minutes ago, Havok said:

I know on Steam you have a main game and then you have DLC addon packs for it. But what if you don't have the main game and just sell an IWAD, is that allowed?

I know nothing about steam honestly so I can't answer that haha

[dasho]

6 minutes ago, Havok said:

 

Yeah, it's not about making a living, would just be cool to get something back for the time invested, I'm mainly doing this for fun as a hobby. The main goal is to donate 50% of the profits to the Doom community in adding features to GZDoom such as realistic water, scenery, better monster textures, etc. What I was thinking was I would build a reputation making several well received WADs for free and then I would release my commercial game. 

 

You better be shooting for a lot more than a reasonable year's salary if you want 50% of it to be able to afford to pay a development team to not only add features to a source port but make new art assets from scratch.

[roadworx]

15 minutes ago, Andrea Rovenski said:

I believe the subject is open to interpretation, OP didn't really make many definitive claims in either direction in my opinion. 

if they're saying that they'd be selling it as a bonus instead of making it exclusively a commercial product, then that's a different story. however, i really don't think that that's the case here. maybe i'm wrong though, who knows ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

13 minutes ago, Havok said:

Yeah, it's not about making a living, would just be cool to get something back for the time invested, I'm mainly doing this for fun as a hobby. The main goal is to donate 50% of the profits to the Doom community in adding features to GZDoom such as realistic water, scenery, better monster textures, etc. What I was thinking was I would build a reputation making several well received WADs for free and then I would release my commercial game.

...what? graf would probably tell you to fuck off lol, those are all way outside the scope of gzdoom. it's not doomsday

[roadworx]

17 minutes ago, Sneezy McGlassFace said:

edit: on the other hand, there are standalone games based on gzdoom that are just fine. Also, there's a ton of shovelware disks in the 90s and 2000s that were presumably also fine? I don't know.

standalone games made using gzdoom don't use assets from doom though, that's the thing. they use their own assets, made by the developers behind the game. they're not making a doom game, they're making a game based on the gzdoom engine (which is so far from the doom engine that you arguably can't even call it a doom source port at this point, it's more a game engine that doubles as a doom source port lol).

 

also, if by "fine" you mean that they were sued into oblivion by id software back in the 90s, then sure. shovelware disks are totally fine

[Havok]

2 minutes ago, roadworx said:

 

 

...what? graf would probably tell you to fuck off lol, those are all way outside the scope of gzdoom. it's not doomsday

 

I've seen realistic textures using PBR materials. If it can do that then why can't it handle realistic water? In any case, the source code is available for GZDoom so I could potentially add those features myself if I wanted.