Biggest Doom WAD Turnoffs

[Jacek Bourne]

1 minute ago, Roofi said:

 

Is there an audience which loves being softlocked by accident in a Doom map?

Yes. Yes there is.

[Stupid Bunny]

While we're at it, I can't remember any time anyone here has said "Yes, great use of stealth monsters, please more stealth monsters." That could be either (a) selective memory, (b) I haven't read the right threads, or (c) someone has yet to come up with the use case where stealth monsters are actually cool and not a cheap pain in the ass. Somebody please set the record straight if they have differing opinions or experience on this

[GhostyPep]

I'm not personally into long first levels. I, personally, think that they should be beatable in under 18 seconds (if you just speedrun through it.)

[Nefelibeta]

3 hours ago, knifeworld said:

-stealth monsters

what the hell even is that

[Vermil]

17 minutes ago, Nefelibeta said:

what the hell even is that

 

ZDoom has variants of the original monsters that only become visible when attacking.

 

https://zdoom.org/wiki/Stealth_monster

[Bobby :D]

13 hours ago, Garnto said:

What do you guys hate to see the most in Doom WADS? Posting this as a new and fairly inexperienced WAD maker so I can know what to avoid.

Oh my god make it stop please I just want something different for once. 

[Endless]

Technically speaking, the actual turns offs are game breaking bugs or terrible map making, like save game buffer overflow, visplane crash, softlocks, untagged actions, grossly imbalanced gameplay (like throwing 100 barons vs 10 shotgun shells), FPS tankers, etc

 

As for personal preferences, what may turn off someone might turn on someone else. Doom kinks if you will.

 

From my POV, this is what makes me question if I should finish a map:

 

- Unnecessarily cryptic progression

- Obligatory secrets

- More than 300 enemies (I just don't have the stamina anymore)

- 3 textures for the entire map

- Deathtraps and softlocks

- Puzzles

[Noiser]

6 hours ago, Roofi said:

 

Is there an audience which loves being softlocked by accident in a Doom map?

Bug testers, speedrunners, curious people... I mean, some people are fascinated by glitches. Remember when Minus 1 World on Mario was a thing? :-)

Edited February 10, 2023 by Noiser

[Dillar]

I personally don't mind a bit of high-enemy count slaughter as long as it isn't tedious, i.e. shotgunning barons. Tbh I am more bored by incredibly easy rooms with no sense of danger or challenge.

 

I mostly tend to lose patience when I have to resort to backtracking, switch-hunting, wall-humping, etc. If I can't find how to progress through an area on a second or third look, that's boring to me. As gloriously brilliant as Magnolia was, I didn't really enjoy a lot of it because of how much time I had to spend cluelessly running around and alt-tabbing to a playthrough.

[baja blast rd.]

The issue with trying to learn this way is that you will "beginner gains" your way out of needing to ask it, and beginner gains are by definition almost inevitable given time and effort. More people at the intermediate level and above should be asking the better counterpart to this question, which is something like "what are the common mediocrity traps -- stuff that robs 'okay' maps of the chance to be really good?" Imo that is way more valuable because even expert designers run into those. The answers to that question are cool and valuable. 

 

A few other issues you'll run into that haven't been described upthread:

 

- Ill-defined skills (like art) are different from strongly defined skills (like performance and sports that humans have developed strong specific training methods for) in how you get better at them. With strongly defined skills, you should beeline to the 'best methods', but with ill-defined skills (ill-defined btw = there are many ways to do it and get better at it and many possible ideal outcomes) a major way you get better at them is through heavy experimentation. Which means that asking for what you should "avoid" is counterproductive. 

 

- Responses will overrepresent stuff that is legible (has a clear label like 'platforming' or 'inescapable death pits'). But illegible, vaguely defined turnoffs are way more important anyway but will hardly ever surface in threads like this.

 

- Among responses, you're also just getting the 'hate this' part of the vote. If you imagine every possible element as having people who like it and people who hate it, sort of like -- revenant hordes: [30% of people find really fun, 40% of people find fun, 20% of people find unfun, 10% of people detest] or pinkies: [10% of people find really fun, 90% of people don't give a shit] -- threads like these are basically sorting by max(people who hate this). But it's possible a lot of people love it too, and you would not know. You're not really getting a true picture of the overall 'value' of something this way. 

 

- Responses also can't contain actionable nuance. So for all you know, the most fun map archetype possible in Doom might be maps with 400 monsters that have two-thirds low-tier fodder like imps and zombies, but if "maps with 400 monsters" is listed as a turnoff and you don't know any better you're not distinguishing between that and other types of 400-monster maps. What makes a fun inescapable pit that increases the fun value of a map? What makes a bad one that is simply annoying? There are definitely answers to those questions, but learning 'inescapable pits = controversial' has no useful insights to those questions. Simplification while learning as a beginner can be useful, but there is such a thing as being too simplified to be useful, and a laundry list of pet peeves is very much that. 

 

14 hours ago, Garnto said:

What do you guys hate to see the most in Doom WADS? Posting this as a new and fairly inexperienced WAD maker so I can know what to avoid.

If you want to know what to avoid as a 'new and fairly inexperienced WAD maker' avoid being afraid of failure. Try different shit and get feedback on it and don't shy away from experimenting, doing stuff that might not necessarily be beloved. 

[Not Jabba]

5 minutes ago, baja blast rd. said:

The issue with trying to learn this way is that you will "beginner gains" your way out of needing to ask it, and beginner gains are by definition almost inevitable given time and effort. More people at the intermediate level and above should be asking the better counterpart to this question, which is something like "what are the common mediocrity traps -- stuff that robs 'okay' maps of the chance to be really good?" Imo that is way more valuable because even expert designers run into those. The answers to that question are cool and valuable. 

 

...

 

but there is such a thing as being too simplified to be useful, and a laundry list of pet peeves is very much that. 

 

This is the best explanation I've seen of something that people have been trying to parse for the entire almost 20 years that I've been on this forum.

[Mr Masker]

a light switch

[Alper002]

1 hour ago, Stupid Bunny said:

While we're at it, I can't remember any time anyone here has said "Yes, great use of stealth monsters, please more stealth monsters." That could be either (a) selective memory, (b) I haven't read the right threads, or (c) someone has yet to come up with the use case where stealth monsters are actually cool and not a cheap pain in the ass. Somebody please set the record straight if they have differing opinions or experience on this

I don't think I've read it in any doomworld thread, but I've seen it said that stealth Arch-Viles in particular have potential due to being fully visible for their decently-long attack cycle. Resurrection probably gives away their position too.

Probably still not for everyone.

[Smoothandz]

1: Spend time and effort making a map

2: Post map

3: Receive advice from play testers

4: Learn from advice and criticism

5: Go back to step 1

6: Keep repeating until satisfied or move on to making more maps

7: Be proud of you accomplishment and profit

 

No one starts at the top. I've learned most everyone here will notice when someone puts time and effort into making a map. Most everyone here will give you positive criticism, so take it and run with it. Treat your mistakes as a learning experiences. Learn and grow

 

[knifeworld]

4 hours ago, Nefelibeta said:

what the hell even is that

probably the worst gzdoomism to ever exist, other than fixing zerotags behind the scenes so that new mappers don't know their map is borked in other ports

[Barry Burton]

Mandatory secrets to finish or progress in a level.

[pcorf]

Ambush where you are trapped in a room (or area) while waiting forever for the bars to lower. Yes you are forced to fight, but once you beat it you are just waiting and waiting and waiting.

[Dubbag]

When they start talking about their ex on the first date.

[Jacek Bourne]

27 minutes ago, pcorf said:

Ambush where you are trapped in a room (or area) while waiting forever for the bars to lower. Yes you are forced to fight, but once you beat it you are just waiting and waiting and waiting.

Not if properly timed.

[Garnto]

4 hours ago, baja blast rd. said:

The issue with trying to learn this way is that you will "beginner gains" your way out of needing to ask it, and beginner gains are by definition almost inevitable given time and effort. More people at the intermediate level and above should be asking the better counterpart to this question, which is something like "what are the common mediocrity traps -- stuff that robs 'okay' maps of the chance to be really good?" Imo that is way more valuable because even expert designers run into those. The answers to that question are cool and valuable. 

 

A few other issues you'll run into that haven't been described upthread:

 

- Ill-defined skills (like art) are different from strongly defined skills (like performance and sports that humans have developed strong specific training methods for) in how you get better at them. With strongly defined skills, you should beeline to the 'best methods', but with ill-defined skills (ill-defined btw = there are many ways to do it and get better at it and many possible ideal outcomes) a major way you get better at them is through heavy experimentation. Which means that asking for what you should "avoid" is counterproductive. 

 

- Responses will overrepresent stuff that is legible (has a clear label like 'platforming' or 'inescapable death pits'). But illegible, vaguely defined turnoffs are way more important anyway but will hardly ever surface in threads like this.

 

- Among responses, you're also just getting the 'hate this' part of the vote. If you imagine every possible element as having people who like it and people who hate it, sort of like -- revenant hordes: [30% of people find really fun, 40% of people find fun, 20% of people find unfun, 10% of people detest] or pinkies: [10% of people find really fun, 90% of people don't give a shit] -- threads like these are basically sorting by max(people who hate this). But it's possible a lot of people love it too, and you would not know. You're not really getting a true picture of the overall 'value' of something this way. 

 

- Responses also can't contain actionable nuance. So for all you know, the most fun map archetype possible in Doom might be maps with 400 monsters that have two-thirds low-tier fodder like imps and zombies, but if "maps with 400 monsters" is listed as a turnoff and you don't know any better you're not distinguishing between that and other types of 400-monster maps. What makes a fun inescapable pit that increases the fun value of a map? What makes a bad one that is simply annoying? There are definitely answers to those questions, but learning 'inescapable pits = controversial' has no useful insights to those questions. Simplification while learning as a beginner can be useful, but there is such a thing as being too simplified to be useful, and a laundry list of pet peeves is very much that. 

 

If you want to know what to avoid as a 'new and fairly inexperienced WAD maker' avoid being afraid of failure. Try different shit and get feedback on it and don't shy away from experimenting, doing stuff that might not necessarily be beloved. 

I think I've gained the most out of this response, thanks for sending it. I've been worried about failure so much and this has sort of encouraged me to just experiment and see what works and what doesn't. 

[Major Arlene]

9 hours ago, MFG38 said:

STARTAN2.

this is the only correct answer to this thread.

 

but yeah, main thing to keep in mind is to make the things you like making. for example I just like making really brightly colored maps and do it often. just be sure to do plenty of testing for technical issues, the worst thing you can do is accidentally get a player stuck in your WAD and them not being able to progress forward.

[LadyMistDragon]

Anyone that slaps down brown textures and doesn't even bother to add in any detailing or anything in their spaces. If you're going to use a default pallette, at least try to add a little more character to it.

[kalensar]

My biggest turn off is cranking the combat from zero to 100 by the 3rd room. I love exploration and even hard fights, but puzzle slaughter ain't my cup of earl grey. 

[pcorf]

15 hours ago, Jacek Bourne said:

Not if properly timed.

 

I don't like it at all. Although I am guilty of it one time because in MAP13 of WOS I did it but made sure it was properly timed to the extreme.

[Jacek Bourne]

3 hours ago, pcorf said:

 

I don't like it at all. Although I am guilty of it one time because in MAP13 of WOS I did it but made sure it was properly timed to the extreme.

I find it’s best to have the bars finish lower a bit before the fight is over when you use this technique.

[NPC_CO8ALT]

Archville spamming, and overuse of traps in early maps.

 

After a while, its stops being a fun surprise, and becomes annoying, lazy fake difficulty that shows the creator didn't have any other fresh ideas for said map or wad.

(seriously guys, don't throw Archvilles into the first map of a wad on ALL DIFFICULTIES when you know you didn't give the player proper weapons to deal with them. Making the player run to the exit isn't fun.)

[ChaseC7527]

Backtracking, very dark areas, I mean too dark to see without gogs, excess of monsters (chaingunners in particular), and ugly textures.

[ChaseC7527]

On 2/10/2023 at 2:23 PM, Barry Burton said:

Mandatory secrets to finish or progress in a level.

fucking this, map08 evilution fucked me with this one.

[pcorf]

6 hours ago, ChaseC7527 said:

Backtracking.

 

Yes, something I really tried to avoid in my later projects such as Zone 400 and 2022ADO. But in MAP20 of Zone 400 you do need to backtrack a bit but new fights will open up.

[ChaseC7527]

2 minutes ago, pcorf said:

 

Yes, something I really tried to avoid in my later projects such as Zone 400 and 2022ADO. But in MAP20 of Zone 400 you do need to backtrack a bit but new fights will open up.

yeah, backtracking is a bitch when improperly done, the one time it's done well is in a linear map or linear area where all you have to do is go back the way you came, not search through 20 rooms connected to the one you're in for some hidden buried treasure to get to the end, basically puzzles that are just run around until you find shit, it really pumps the brakes on the action and messes with the flow of the level. 

It's only ever done just to pad for time so it feels longer than it actually is. 

Maybe I'm just too frantic and spontaneous in my gameplay but having to slow down to a crawl just to find some shit turns my brain off.