Smugglers - first map, feedback welcome

[Klear]

Edit: Working on a wad based on the ideas in this map. It lives here.

 

The original plan for this was to make a WAD specifically for VR play, but I got quickly distracted by various things and ended up with just a normal Doom map. A practice run of sorts. I haven't made any Doom maps worth mentioning before, though I was making Duke 3D levels about a quarter of a century ago and it seems like the skills transfer rather nicely.

 

I had no real plan or theme in mind when I started, but pretty soon the map became all about crates, boxes and containers of various sizes. I chose Boom for a nice balance between vanilla experience (I like working under constraints) and the possibility of making some neat tricks (I like to try and break through said constraints).

 

The map is relatively small, with two big arena-type fights and a lot of exploration in between. I'm guessing the difficulty is a bit above iwads - I don't play community wads very often so I suspect my comfortable difficulty level is on the lower end. That said, this map has kicked my ass a few times while testing. I tried to avoid any unfair traps, though I'm thinking maybe some parts are a tiny bit overtuned. In any case, difficulty of the fights and ammo/health/armour placement is where I'd appreciate feedback the most.

 

Aside from balancing and testing on more source ports, I'd still like play around more with light and shadows. There's one experimental beam of light thingy early in the level - that's where I realised I'd never ever finish the map if I were to fiddle with details like that. And there's always more little details that can be added. Anyway, onto the technical things:

 

- IWAD: Doom2

- Map format: Boom

- Difficulty levels implemented, though not tested as extensively as UV.

- Tested with...

GZDoom:

  - I made the map with freelook in mind, but it's perfectly beatable without it

  - There's a certain effect that only really shines with freelook AND hardware rendering, but it's not biggie and nothing breaks with software rendering

  - I *think* I've put blockers everywhere to prevent jumping from breaking the map, but it's not required or encouraged

PrBoom:

  - There are some minor graphical glitches, but nothing gamebreaking.

  - A live arch-vile spawns instead of a corpse in one place. He's friendly though - won't attack you.

  - The exit doesn't seem to register BFG balls for some reason. If you get stuck at what looks like an end, shoot around with a different weapon, I guess =/

QuestZDoom:

  - Errr... no.

 

Hope you enjoy!

 

Download link

 

Screenshots:

Spoiler

Edited April 4, 2023 by Klear : updating link to a new version

[Steve D]

Hi, Klear. This is a very interesting map, and I hope you get more feedback on this, because it's the type of map that can be a bit polarizing.

 

For my money, I think this map goes overboard with the Boom tricks, leading to obtuse progression as well as making it a bit difficult to score 100% kills. I managed 91% because I couldn't find my way back to the Red Key fight, and also because after I finally escaped the circular-scroll battle I had no desire to go back. ;D I should have, though, because I'd be able to potshot the surviving monsters from relative safety.

 

Let me first go over my complaints along with some suggestions to alleviate them.

 

The opening room is a bit too bland, and movement is awkward because the boxes are at step-height. It's just annoying. This can be solved by making the boxes higher, and giving the player a bit more maneuvering room would be nice, too. Another issue is that I backed onto a Zerk, when I had no idea it was there. I'd prefer to have a visible Zerk which I can grab, or save for later in case I need a big health boost. IMO, putting the Zerk outside in a visible and easy to avoid location would be best.

 

The Plasma Gun fake-out was brilliantly done. Kudos! The fight that followed relied heavily on Pinky meat walls and other heavy mid-tiers such as Hell Knights, which became an issue when the Archies showed up and rocket use became dangerous. Some players love to strategize weapon use in those situations. Me, not so much. Maybe I should have played HMP instead so there's less of all the monsters. Oh, well! ;D One thing I can say is that I would have liked the Backpack to appear much earlier, since it comes in so late that you're liable to waste shell boxes as you get the SSG.

 

This map is probably geared to a more puzzle-oriented player. Lucky you, that the first person to playtest this puppy is the one most likely to be put-off by obtuse stuff, like having to shoot some objects to open a path to the circle-scroll fight and the exit. You really pulled the short-straw with me. :D

 

In the circle-scroll fight, you again lead with Pinky meat walls, followed by Barons and Revvies, and in order to demonstrate your bedrock sadism, you throw me a bunch of rockets when what I needed was cells for the PG. Again, some players will love the challenge of weapons-handling. Me, not so much. The circle-scroll fight itself will tend to raise the hackles of players who don't wish to be in the grip of forces beyond their control. It's an insanely clever and well-executed battle, and I'm certain it will find many fans, but it does take away from the player's movement control as they constantly have to fight against the pulling force. I had some success going backwards against the current, and I also tried to hoard my cells -- I only had 140 racing in -- to try and take out the Revvies, but I never made it to the nirvana point where all the Revvies were dead and I could just rocket the Barons, which is why I eventually ran away after suffering about 5 deaths.

 

And then we get to the exit. This is where, IMO, the map really overdosed on obtuse cleverness, because I used the BFG on that Wolfie, and as a result, I could not exit. I was going to simply quit, but after wandering around wondering where the exit was, I opened my save and used the Chaingun instead, and that pushed the Wolfie over the line and allowed me to exit. I'm lucky insofar as being a savescummer, but people who play saveless, and who assume, as I did, that in a map as clever and tricky as this, you might have made a superhuman Wolfie that needed some BFG blasting to die, will be hopelessly stuck in the map, and in no good humor about it, either. The exit also wasn't marked with an exit sign. So here, I would definitely say, just give us a nice plain exit. I understand the joke of giving the player a BFG to blow away a little Wolfie, but the laughs die quickly when it imprisons you in the map.

 

Now for what I liked. I thought the standard-style gameplay was very well done and engaging. I also thought that the architecture effectively conveyed the sense of a container facility. Another plus was blowing a hole in the wooden structure at the start. Nicely done! The rising pillars in the Red Key fight was also extremely cool, and you did a great job feeding in the hordes. The deep-liquid effects were well done, too, and add a touch of realism. This map also had enough health and ammo for a successful playthrough on UV, and with luck, you'll have a better player than myself go through this next time. As I stated above, I think the map needs more cells to up the fun-quotient, instead of rocket-trolling us in 2 arena fights.

 

You're obviously a skillful mapper. Your scrolling and voodoo-doll effects led to some impressive transformations, and I certainly hope you keep going. My personal opinion is that next time out, maybe concentrate more on standard fights and good architecture, and hold back a bit on the Boom tricks. That's all up to you, of course. Follow your bliss.

 

One last complaint, though. The switch in this pic is repeat-use, but that causes a large structure to vanish into the sky leaving only this unattractive strip of Flat4. In general, it's a bad idea to have structures disappear even partially into the sky, but you could have maybe got away with it if it was just a 1-use switch. All that said, looking forward to your next map!

 

 

 

[Klear]

Wow, that's a lot of feedback! I'd say I'm indeed lucky to get you as the first reply - not only is it detailed, but I can see exactly where you're coming from as my preferences happen to be similar to yours. It's just that what map I want to play and what map I can create (especially with zero planning) are two very different things. Once I started playing with Boom tricks I just couldn't stop. It's addicting. This being my first map, I was mostly trying to answer whether I could do various things, never stopping to ask myself whether I should. I mean, I did ask myself whether I should, the answer was "no", but I still went ahead. I think I mostly got it out of my system, though.

 

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For my money, I think this map goes overboard with the Boom tricks, leading to obtuse progression as well as making it a bit difficult to score 100% kills. I managed 91% because I couldn't find my way back to the Red Key fight, and also because after I finally escaped the circular-scroll battle I had no desire to go back. ;D I should have, though, because I'd be able to potshot the surviving monsters from relative safety.

 

The red key fight should be the only place where you can't backtrack. I was considering either keeping the teleporter open in some manner or turning that whole room into a crusher after you leave it. The first solution goes against the "it was all an illusion" narrative, the second sounded like too much work at the time. I should give it a go. I think there's also a low chance of being prevented from getting 100% kills if a hell knight gets picked up by a fast-rising blood pillar and gets stuck in the ceiling, though I never saw that happen.

 

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The opening room is a bit too bland, and movement is awkward because the boxes are at step-height. It's just annoying. This can be solved by making the boxes higher, and giving the player a bit more maneuvering room would be nice, too. Another issue is that I backed onto a Zerk, when I had no idea it was there. I'd prefer to have a visible Zerk which I can grab, or save for later in case I need a big health boost. IMO, putting the Zerk outside in a visible and easy to avoid location would be best.

 

The first room is a relic from when I was designing this map for VR play (I gave up on that very soon, and put a final nail in it with the rotating room). The boxes and stuff really pop-out when you have 3D vision and being blocked by them is not annoying since you can easily see under where your feet would be. There's also an unreasonably detailed 3D drain tucked in a corner where you have no reason to go being a complete waste of time to make, but like I said, I was experimenting with stuff. 

 

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The fight that followed relied heavily on Pinky meat walls and other heavy mid-tiers such as Hell Knights, which became an issue when the Archies showed up and rocket use became dangerous. Some players love to strategize weapon use in those situations. Me, not so much. Maybe I should have played HMP instead so there's less of all the monsters.

 

I haven't implemented other difficulties yet, since I really have no idea how difficult the map is compared to what's normally expected. I suspected the pinkie numbers are way too high, though. I was considering turning at least of of the knights into a baron, but the idea is to have most of the monsters dead by the time the archies show up.

 

Quote

In the circle-scroll fight, you again lead with Pinky meat walls, followed by Barons and Revvies, and in order to demonstrate your bedrock sadism, you throw me a bunch of rockets when what I needed was cells for the PG. Again, some players will love the challenge of weapons-handling. Me, not so much.

 

There's a small bug here - I put a bunch of items in the enemy-spawner room that would trickle in during the fight, except I forgot the items pass through the monsters and form a pile which gets spawned together with the first pinky. This does contain two small energy cells as well two rockets which serve more as "crap being dumped on your head" rather than ammo refill. Clips, health and armour bonuses serve the same purpose. I was mostly testing the room with the SSG, since you're not guaranteed the plasma at this point (there is an extra SSG tucked in the dark sewer room with revenants, I should probably move it to a more visible location).

 

I've been thinking and I'll probably slightly rework the room:

1) I'll make it slightly bigger. There's not much room without altering other geometry, but I think there should be a tad more room to maneuvre.

2) Remove the initial three pinkies and delay the first enemy spawn for a few seconds. This will hopefully give the player a bit of time to get used to the way movement in the room works. The floor is faster the closer to the edge you go, so you can be somewhat stationary if standing in the middle. There probably isn't nearly enough time to figure this out with enemies falling on your head.

3) Start the spawns with some random crap (clips, armour bonuses) before throwing in the enemies.

4) I tested the map in PrBoom and the spawns never start, so I might as well try to fix that.

 

As for more PR ammo, I think I'll look for some nice places (not *too* hidden) where to but it throughout the level rather than dumping more on you during this fight, to reward exploration. Maybe instead of the revenant SSG, now that I think about it.

 

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And then we get to the exit. This is where, IMO, the map really overdosed on obtuse cleverness, because I used the BFG on that Wolfie, and as a result, I could not exit. I was going to simply quit, but after wandering around wondering where the exit was, I opened my save and used the Chaingun instead, and that pushed the Wolfie over the line and allowed me to exit. I'm lucky insofar as being a savescummer, but people who play saveless, and who assume, as I did, that in a map as clever and tricky as this, you might have made a superhuman Wolfie that needed some BFG blasting to die, will be hopelessly stuck in the map, and in no good humor about it, either. The exit also wasn't marked with an exit sign. So here, I would definitely say, just give us a nice plain exit. I understand the joke of giving the player a BFG to blow away a little Wolfie, but the laughs die quickly when it imprisons you in the map.

 

Hmm... I've tested the exit extensively, with the BFG most of the time and never ran into any issues, but I have managed to replicate this once since then. I think it's just the bad luck of the BFG projectile passing through the invisible wall which normally activates the teleport. The wall is only 1 MU wide, a really bad decision in retrospect. I can definitely make it wider.

 

Additionally, shooting the invisible wall activates a scrolling floor, sending the guy away to a crusher room where he triggers a voodoo doll which ends the level. Not happy about the delay, but I wanted to make sure he gets crushed before the level ends. Thinking about it now, I should make the gunshot trigger the end of level sequence by itself so if the SS dies for any reason the level still ends. At the very least the level should then be always exittable by shooting the invisible wall again if the first shot missed somehow.

 

At any rate, the ending is definitely a dumb joke and one I would certainly remove if I were to turn this into a full megawad - the idea is to use the SS guard as a sort of a G-man character, watching you progress throughout the levels (there are three places where you can see him in this map, besides the ending). The final level would see him transformed into his true form and give you a proper bossfight (that is, have him telefragged by a cybie, most likely). That would require me to make 29 more maps though. Not sure if I'm up to that =D

 

I was considering adding an exit sign somewhere as a courtesy, but I wanted you to think I was building up to a final fight, plus I hoped the three-key door would be enough of a hint that you're nearing the end.

 

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One last complaint, though. The switch in this pic is repeat-use, but that causes a large structure to vanish into the sky leaving only this unattractive strip of Flat4.

 

Ah, nicely spotted. That was indeed meant to be a single-use switch.

 

Anyway, thanks for the detailed feedback! I've already begun fixing a bunch of stuff you mentioned, as well a whole bunch of stuff that popped out at me the second I uploaded the first version. I swear some textures just move on their own. Hopefully I'll have an updated version up shortly.

[Klear]

Updated OP with a link to a newer version.

 

- Implemented difficulty settings. Mostly by removing / replacing enemies on a whim and adding a few extra items. The hellmouth fight can end way sooner in HNTR, leading to a bit of wait before the exit opens.

- Rebalanced the sewer fight
   - Still pretty tough. Made a secret (with blue armour) just before the fight more visible and replaced the armour with an invuln on lower difficulties
   - Since the enemies trickle in more slowly, the door opens much sooner into the fight, allowing escape route if things turn ugly
- Moved backpack from the hellmouth fight to an earlier unmissable place
   - Replaced it with a partial invisibility. Not that you'd want it in that fight, but it's easy enough to avoid so why not.
- Level exit should hopefully trigger every time now. Worked every time I tried in GZDoom. It still causes some trouble on PrBoom. Will need to investigate more.
- Bunch of textures alignments and other touchups

 

There's still a bunch of improvements and eye-candy I want to add, but this will do for now.

[Insaneprophet]

That was definately something different from most levels. I gotta say I liked every bit of it. Nothing ever lasted so long as to out stay its welcome and every new thing was completely its own unique experience. The architecture/texturing was a bit jarring at first but succeeded in adding yet another detail that makes this wad its own thing unlike anything else Ive encountered. I truely enjoyed all of the gimmicks that lead to each new area, secret or fight and the mechanics of the different arenas were something special in their own right. This one gets a Star++ from me, thank you for making it.

[Zahid]

popi96.zip 

here is my fda using latest  prboom+ cl9 and iddt*2 code for secrets also second attempt uv max but 3 monster were not killed, 2 didn't spawn at all

it is very very interesting map progression reminds me of kamasutra and going down i really like the way it progress,its boom gimmicks and tricks and visuals which resembles some dock for smuggling as name mentioned 

fights are rather plain just red key area offer some challenge otherwise its too easy 

it was a pleasure to play this map ...kamasutra and going down are two of my all time favorite wads and this maps seems to remind me of those....

 

[Klear]

4 hours ago, Insaneprophet said:

That was definately something different from most levels. I gotta say I liked every bit of it. Nothing ever lasted so long as to out stay its welcome and every new thing was completely its own unique experience.

 

I would expect my levels to stick to a single theme a bit more in the future, as here I was trying out different things and was usually very keen to start something new rather than continue with whatever I'm doing right then. The sewer section in particular I felt should be a bit longer and mazey, but then again, who likes sewer sections in games?

 

Anyway, thanks for playing, glad you enjoyed it!

 

2 hours ago, Zahid said:

here is my fda using latest  prboom+ cl9 and iddt*2 code for secrets also second attempt uv max but 3 monster were not killed, 2 didn't spawn at all

 

 

I watched the replay and I think the missing monsters got stuck during the sewer fight. The spawner was previously completely broken on PrBoom. I thought I fixed it, but I can tell some of the enemies came in way too late in the fight in your demo. I'll try to fix it properly for the next version.

 

Being compared to Going Down is, of course, the highest honor I could even imagine, as that's the wad that in a way inspired me to get into mapmaking in the first place. I suspect any similarity is more due inspiration by build-engine maps on the fundamental level. Goota check out kamasutra. Sounds like I'd really enjoy that.

 

Thanks for the demo. It was a thrill seeing a better player than myself have a go at the map.

[Klear]

Well then. The reception of this map was way better than I imagined for which I am thankful. But ultimately this was a sort of an "accident". What I really want is to focus on my original idea of making a mapset tailor-made for VR play, and besides that I have several non-doom related projects I should really go back to. Picking up mapmaking was only really meant to be a short break and I've already spent way too much time on it. But then again...

 

...aw, screw it. Who am I kidding? I've already started working on a full megawad to house this map. Making maps is a goddamn addiction. I'm halfway done with the first map and have a rough idea of where I want to go with this. I'll be working on that for a while now and maybe post a separate thread once I have at least a bunch of maps. I won't be updating this one until I have a clearer idea of how it will fit in the full wad, since it will probably need to be reworked to some extent.

 

See you then.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Klear : iwad -> megawad, I'm still struggling with the terminology =P

[Steve D]

Please forgive my late reply.

 

First thing is I'm stoked that you're going to keep on mapping. Smugglers shows that you did a lot of homework before getting started, learning the sky-height-trick and all the Boom wizardry from the get-go. Doing a megawad straight off the bat is something that many try and relatively few accomplish, so if at any point you feel your energy flagging, consider joining a community project or try shrinking your megawad down to an episode or even minisode, just to get something out there. In any case, good luck!

 

I ought to mention your "unreasonably detailed 3D drain." I like it! I actually did something similar recently. 

 

I played your revised map and did much better this time. I'm especially proud of maxing the secrets. On my first play, all I found was the rocket launcher.

 

I only died 3 times on this playthrough, and my second proudest moment was getting through the Red Key fight on the first try, albeit at rather low health. I also appreciated the early Backpack and the much less jerky starting room. The sewer fight went much better this time, though I'm guessing some players will consider it too easy now. Yeah, Doomers are hard to please. I still took a beating, tho. ;D

 

Worth noting, I saved at the end and blasted the Wolfie with the BFG, and successfully exited. Pleased. :)

 

The only real downside for me in this version concerned the following sky-height-trick issues;

 

Spoiler

 

 

In the top pic, the lower container should be a solid sector with a 128 floor, because putting the sky on it makes the top container look paper-thin. In the lower pic, you have an impressive trick -- the sky rises with the container, but again, the sky grafted to the container makes the upper container vanish. Once the container and the sky rise together, it creates an impressive effect, but maybe it's better to lose the switch and just put the container in its raised position, so it looks natural. Feel free to search for other opinions on this.

 

What you have here is a fun map with incredible transformations and Boom tricks. Keep 'em coming!

[Klear]

Well, one reason I want to aim for a full megawad is so that I could get to those juicy text screens, but I've since discovered the joys of UMAPINFO, so that's no longer a priority. There's still the bragging rights aspect. But realistically I'm ready to cut back on my plans if I start running out of steam. Better to have fewer levels than filler.

 

Right now I have the first map more or less finished. I have significantly cut down on boom trickery without compromising on the style I've set in this map - in the first half at least. Then I started going overboard with the final fight again. Then I spent a full day overengineering the end level switch =D At least I've decided to rigorously test the maps in PrBoom+ in addition to just GZDoom as a sanity check.

 

I have the basic theme for the first few levels set up and I know exactly what I want to do for the finale, plus a bunch of ideas for levels without a specific place in the wad so far. One of these is coming along rather nicely, so I'll just keep at it and see how far I get.

 

The sky-height-trick is actually one of the things I learnt way back when I was messing around in build. Fun fact - I hate it. Always hated it, I just forgot I did. It was especially painful in build, since AFAIK there wasn't an easy way to delete or merge sectors and the supporting sectors always ended up as a mess. This map still has a bunch of extra linedefs that I was simply too afraid to delete. That messed up part you pointed out? I gave up at that point hoping nobody will notice. What I really need is to plan ahead more especially when making outdoor maps. Otherwise it's a pain to check all the angles and ceilings.

[Custom Longplay]

The link above no longer works?

[Klear]

9 minutes ago, Custom Longplay said:

The link above no longer works?

 

Sorry about that. Fixed now.

[Custom Longplay]

Thanks...

[Biodegradable]

 

[Klear]

Thanks for the video!

 

In the confusing part you're just supposed to shoot the line of barrels. Everything explodes and the pool drains. The lost souls you saw are there to trigger a linedef when hit by an explosion. The single zombieman is positioned so that his gibs fly out of the window. That was before I found out I can easily teleport gibs anywhere I want =D

 

Looking at your vid, the break in the fence does look like it's inviting you to jump across. That's my bad. The platform is unrelated, kinda unfortunate placement. The real reason for the missing brick is that the fence is otherwise too high to shoot over without freelook.

 

I should probably place some zombiemen in front of the barrel line, so the barrel line can get caught in the crossfire.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Klear