Editing process?

[Opulent]

It would be useful if one of you fancy wad authors out there wrote a true how-to for editing.
I don't mean how to EDIT maps, but how to process the map and with what tools.
What editor can handle large maps, what bsp tool to use and when, dshrink, what editors are best for texture alignment, what editors are best for using all the linedefs, DCC, RMB, what editors support what ports, etc...
no one ever posts the process for HOW they make maps; only how the editing is done.
You may say: "then write one"; but I don't know this information, I am asking. :)
/Op changes his sig to n00b-in-training

[ReX]

I've been writing some simple tutorials for DooM-editing newbies, but nothing as in-depth as you've suggested. Nigel "Enjay" Rowand is a good candidate for the job, as he explains things well, goes into the right amount of technical detail, and is an unbiased user of available utilities. Perhaps he'll read your post and volunteer.

[myk]

First they browse the editors sections of DOOM related sites, keeping in mind the text files of WADs they've liked as a reference for what can be done using what, then they test a couple of promising applications. When they feel ready they start to click on the executables, make choices in menus or use shortcuts, and sometimes read textfiles or help menus (like when they get stuck or something.)

There you go!

[ReX]

Myk, I think Opulent was thinking about a look at specific attributes of utilities as they pertain to the map building process, not at utilities in general.

[myk]

I was being a bit impish... but I think that generally the process is very particular, and varies according to what the user likes to do, his or her preferences. Looking at the "Editors used" section of a WADs text file gives quite a few hints... plus people generally stick to a set of utilities, and they try others in specific situations if necessary. Someone could write a sort of guide on this matter, but it'd hardly be complete (unless lots of varied authors contributed their input), and could be misguiding on some things. Experimenting is the best way for the editing process in my opinion, and it's what lets one achieve a personal style (the tools used and how they are used play an important role in the WADs produced.) Working with "manuals" might speed up the process in some respects, but also tends to standardize things.

[Searcher]

Pretty tall order Opulent. The only guys that would know this info are the guys that have used all the editors and various tools. It might be a project more suited to several guys together that can pool their knowledge. Then hopefully one of them has the ability to write well, which is no easy task either.

My own knowledge is very limited outside of Deepsea, which is a great tool for everything I need in map making, but a lot of guys use Wad Author and other tools to do as good or better job than I do. Like Deep says "Just depends on what you get used to"

It certainly is an interesting idea.

Enjoyed your newdoom interview BTW.

[Cyb]

Well the thing is there's no right or wrong way to go about editing maps.

For instance, one person may like to use deth or zeth and another may perfer wadauthor's method of editing, and yet another may prefer deepsea.

For the most part though, generally speaking all editors are the same. You (either by drawing them ala deu or with prefabs ala wadauthor) make sectors and assign speials to linedefs to make the sectors move in some way, that's really all there is too it. It gets a bit more complicated with hexen format stuff and when scripting comes into play, but the same findamental basis is still there (though in hexen pretty much anything can trigger anything else).

Anyway, how you get from point A (the idea) to point B (the finished map) is totally up to you. Obviously you'd want to use an editor you're comfortable with, and your chioices become somewhat more limited if you want to use a port.

I can go a bit into a few of the specifics you asked. The main one being nodes builders. In general, internal nodes builders included with editors aren't nearly as good as external stand alone ones. The major ones are BSP, Zennode and Warm which each have their own following as well as pros and cons. BSP, for instance, was programmed by someone who knew the doom source like the back of his hand and it is considered to be the best at building nodes. However it's probably the slowest of the three. Zennode is one of the quickest, but it has been known to mess things up on occasion, but the major selling point of it is the speed. Warm (the one I use) is quick and also capable of a variety of other things that I'm not sure the other two can do (map compression, reject, and a few other things). I mean what it really comes down to is the one most people have used first, as pretty much there isn't any real clear cut advantage to using any of the three. I've seen each one screw up when the other two didn't.

RMB is probably the best reject map builder you can get. That said it's amazingly slow (due to the large amount of calculations it does) but, like I said it's excellent at what it does. Side note, reject maps aren't as necessary as they used to be, and usually if your map doesn't have an excessive amount of monsters you can get away with a zero filled reject and not have any performance suffering. Reject maps simply calculate the line of sight for all the monsters and when they can see the player, and they are always the same size for every map, so even though a zero filled reject takes a fraction of the time a more efficient one takes to make, you save zero in terms of file size.

As far as ports, any editor that supports Hexen probably supports zdoom (the ones I can recall off the top of my head are zeth, wauthor and deepsea), and all the other editors in one way or another have at least partial support for boom, legacy etc etc as they all have the same map format as Doom and all their new features are additioal linedef triggers and sector types.

Really in the end it all comes down to is trial and error and what editor(s) you prefer to use. Currently myself I use wauthor and wintex for pretty much everything. I used to use warm, but I only edit for zdoom which now has an internal nodes builder, so I don't even use that any more. I could write a book on all the stuff you have to do to trick wintex into doing certain things for you (importing mods or data lumps, what it does when it cleans up a file etc etc). I could use something better and less picky, but I'm just used to it, so I stay with it. shrug.

Yeah, that's about all I can think of right now, I hope something helps perhaps.

[Opulent]

First off: thanks all for the replies.
Cyberdemon has been very helpful in many editing threads recently and his reply is at the heart of what I was asking.
The entire process is not very intuitive for someone who has never edited... but everyone's words made complete sense to me.
I was surprised that RMB took more than a second on my computer -- man, that must take forever on a 486. :P
yes, Enjay's site is very useful.
Myk: yeah, I'm looking for that final process by people who have already trial-and-error'd for 7 years. Chris Lutz is not learning, or trial-and-error'ing when making P:AR, he has an editing process. THAT is what I am looking for. :)
Searcher: thanks for reading my interview. :)

so in the end: I guess it would be useful (to me anyway) to ask all of the expert DOOM mappers to give me _their_ processes for editing.

Opulent - DCK w/zennode (I'm so lame)

Cyb - Wadauthor (w/wintex for resources) -> Warm

at the moment, what I would recommend for the less-informed: Deepsea or Wadauthor (if in windows), deth or DCK in dos -> DCC or your editor's internal checker(DeepSea's is very nice) -> remove unneeded textures/resources from the wad -> BSP -> RMB -> ftp :P
(and yes, most of the more popular map editors have a following; and it should be noted that DeepSea can do virtually everything on it's own)
oh, and add dshrink perhaps if you feel your wad is bloated, but do not dshrink without testing.

[Fletcher`]

Opulent said:

Opulent - DCK w/zennode (I'm so lame)

ravage - DCK + w/zennode + NWTpro 1.14b (01d5|-|0oL, |-|3h. :) )

[Epyo]

I'm busy, I'll do it some other time. Sounds like fun.

[deep]

Cyb said:

BSP, for instance, was programmed by someone who knew the doom source like the back of his hand and it is considered to be the best at building nodes.

Not to start a fight, but that is not true. Although Lee K modified BSP, he did nothing that signicant. More like optimizing. And he did this BEFORE the DOOM source came out. (I know this because I also started from BSP source and know exactly what he did.) IOW, there's really not much difference between DeePBSP and BSP except for speed - the one thing most people did not realize is the DeePBSP run from the GUI was not the same as run from the command line:) I've changed the defaults in standalone to be like the GUI defaults - but the GUI can still change more options.

The rest boils down to personal choice and MONEY ... [evil laugh]

[Enjay]

Hmmm, putting down your process, your system. Hmmm...

Not sure how easy that would be. Even writing a step by step for a level as you create it probably wouldn't capture that "Je ne sais quoi" that defines what you do. eg when I was at teacher training college, as students were were eternally frustrated by the endless lectures on child psychology, course structure and so on, when all we wanted to find out was how to teach. It wasn't until near the end of the course, an into our teaching jobs that we realised that's the one thing they can't tell you. They can tell you the rules, they can tell you what to do with a text book, but how you "do it" becomes your thing. Not exactly the same as doom editing, but there may be something in that.

Tutorials for newbies are easy. Telling them what a sector is, how to make a teleport work etc etc - no problem - but trying to define your own thought process and what you do as you decide which sectors to build, where to put them, how to link them, and where the teleporter goes - that's a lot harder. I know for a fact that people have widely varying techniques. Some people plan on paper from the get go. Other people's levels develop more "organically". I guess the planner people would have an easier time capturing what they do than the organic people.

A consolidated "resource" of a million and one tips from experienced authors might be more useful than getting someone's "proccess" down anyway. I know such resources exist to a greater or lesser extent already, but imagine a cross referenced database of the combined knowledge of the community (however unlikely such a thing would be). Some worthy soul with the time, inclination and enough knowledge themself to sort the wheat from the chaff could gather a lot for such a resource from combing these boards alone.

As for ReX's vote of confidence, thanks, but I actually suspect that I'm not the person to give an over view of most tools these days. Sure, I would do my best to be even handed but I reckon increasingly over the last 5 years, maybe more, I've used less and less tools and am really only fully up to speed with DeePsea these days because it does everything I need. I think I have probably used every editor going to a greater or lesser extent, but I also think I would have a job even getting started with WA or DETH these days. Lack of familiarity has allowed the little grey cells to escape out of my ear and run off down the road singing bawdy songs. Dunno who taught them the songs though :-/

[Gokuma]

DETH for 99% of level editing even if I plan to finish a level's features in ZETH. So basically any and all variations of DETH. I align my textures manually in it. WadAuthor can do it automatically but not so good when something wraps around in a circle (I omit a few pixels of the texture here and there to make something wrap properly). I only use WadAuthor for copying and pasting stuff from one level to another.

Some version of BSP for node building.
RMB's effect utility for reject efects.

Resources:
ALWAYS insert sounds with dmaud since it correctly converts them 100% of the time.
Usually insert graphics with dmgraph and batch file. Sometimes I use Wintex.
Edit textures with Wintex.
NWT v1.3 for exporting from wad to wad and insertion of raw resources (like lumps composed of plain text)
Ted.exe for endoom creation
Deutex v4.4.0 and NWT for extracting from Alpha Dooms
Dehacked and dos text editor for dehacked patches
dos text editor for text lumps
midi2mus.exe and qmus2mid for converting midis to mus and vice versa
Kege's colremap.exe for remapping colors of graphics in the Doom palette

Stuff I used in past, mainly when learning how to edit:
WARM
Deu v5.21
Deu 2
Some old version of DCK a little bit
I think I tried WinDeu and maybe DoomCad and didn't like how the windows level editors worked.

[Cyb]

deep said:

Not to start a fight, but that is not true. Although Lee K modified BSP, he did nothing that signicant. More like optimizing. And he did this BEFORE the DOOM source came out. (I know this because I also started from BSP source and know exactly what he did.)...

I'm well aware bsp was around before the source, but Lee did release versions optimised after the source release. BSP 2.3 was released in 98 and supports > 64k blockmaps (with source modification) it says right there in the text file. 3.0 was released (by Lee) a few months after 2.3 Here's a snip from the changelog of 3.0:

The visplane counting code in BSP22x and BSP23x was never 100% accurate, but
was about as close as I could make it based solely on empirical evidence.

So, while in fact bsp was around before the source, Lee released new versions of it after the source release.

[Pate]

Zennode is one of the quickest, but it has been known to mess things up on occasion, but the major selling point of it is the speed.

Actually, this is a bit incorrect. ZenNode is very fast, but the newest versions don't thrash level data. (Note that Doomworld has an old version of ZenNode, the newest is 1.1.0, get it at http://www.mrousseau.org/programs/ZenNode/) I have used ZenNode for years on many many maps (like Eternal, Evilution, Plutonia, and so on) and have had zero problems.

However there is a very good reason to use ZenNode: Legacy. Every other node builder (except maybe DeepBSP, haven't tried that) create node trees that are slightly incorrect. Legacy's renderer is very anal about the correctness of the nodes, and bad nodes show up as missing textures and holes.

So if you plan on making a level for stock Doom/Boom/Legacy, please run the final release through ZenNode. That makes us Legacy users very happy, since we don't have to remangle your map.

[mmnpsrsoskl]

Isn't the purpose of this forum about asking questions reltaed to or about problems we get too when we edit?

[Opulent]

this board is about Editing, yes.
so is this thread.

[The Ultimate DooMer]

Opulent said:

so in the end: I guess it would be useful (to me anyway) to ask all of the expert DOOM mappers to give me _their_ processes for editing.

I draw maps in a notebook, often well before I make them (eg. if I'm making a megawad, I draw all the maps before I actually start making them). I also do all of the graphics (with Paint/PSP), sounds (with AudioRack) and data lumps (with Notepad/WordPad) beforehand.

When I get going, I use

WadAuthor for all the actual map making.
Wintex for most lump handling.
DeePsea for adding new textures (it's easier than Wintex) and midi files (Wintex doesn't support this).
Zennode for node building.

[deep]

Cyb said:

it says right there in the text file. 3.0 was released (by Lee) a few months after 2.3

READ what I write Cyb and don't just defend. I don't care what the text file says, I'm going by the code.

The changes were TRIVIAL and NOT SIGNIFICANTLY different from the original BSP code. BLOCKMAP code change is also trivial (a type change) and done by me way before any port could use it. DMAPEDIT guy is actually the guy that invented blockmap packing - he doesn't get enough credit for that at all.

The "visi" thing was/is a waste of time. Some of the other claimed features don't work except in special cases - so also a waste of time.

I optimized the code myself and looked at the changes made over time in BSP - nothing radical at all. Geez how many times to I have to explain the same thing?

And yes, I agree that ZENNODE is pretty damn good.

[Fletcher`]

Opie said:

so in the end: I guess it would be useful (to me anyway) to ask all of the expert DOOM mappers to give me _their_ processes for editing.

1. Draw map sketch or map parts

1a. Look around for architecture. You'd be suprised what you'd find in town.

2. Make map.

2a. Detail. Detail. Detail.

2b. Gameplay. Gameplay. Gameplay.

3. Playtest.

4. Playtest.

5. Playtest.

6. Get others to playtest.

7. Repeat steps 3 through 6.

8. Repeat steps 1 through 7 unless project is finished.

9. Release.



I think that covers it.

DCK is one of the easiest map editors I've ever used, but the only downside is that it's only for dos, and there's no real extra flat support(not replacing existing flats) like with textures. If Ben ever released the source code, this would be no problem. Besides what does he do with it now anyway? Probably forgot it because it's so old.

NWTpro. It's like NWT but it's better. You can do most of the things wintex can do, but easier. You can import any kind of lump without having to *trick* the editor. The only downfall is you cannot playback sounds, and you cannot edit textures bigger than 256 x 128.

[The Ultimate DooMer]

ravage said:

1. Draw map sketch or map parts

1a. Look around for architecture. You'd be suprised what you'd find in town.

2. Make map.

2a. Detail. Detail. Detail.

2b. Gameplay. Gameplay. Gameplay.

3. Playtest.

4. Playtest.

5. Playtest.

6. Get others to playtest.

7. Repeat steps 3 through 6.

8. Repeat steps 1 through 7 unless project is finished.

9. Release.

You forgot one:

10. Flamewar ensues in newstuff over it's review.

[Epyo]

I wanna make one of these!!!! First get Deepsea, then...

1-get idear
2-make a sector and pick a MAIN texture
3-test
4-pick a texture you can spam that looks like detail
5-test
6-test again, just for fun
7-make a few more sectors
8-test
9-stairs!
10-test
11-repeat steps 7-10 a few times
12-switch themes, that is, repeat steps 2-4
13-repeat step 11
14-repeat step 12
15-repeat steps 10-14 a few times
16-test
17-test
18-be sure to make sure you are not over the shareware sidedef limit
19-if step 18 was true, I don't know what to tell you.
20-make a rather large room, with many monsters, for a good battle.
21-trap!
22-step 13!
23-HAHAHAHAHHA I MA t36 1337 455nnyy&yy
24-stairs!
25-pity yourself for being such a bad mappah
26-step 25 a few times
27-step 26 a few times
28-remember that you have a map to make
29-steps 6-7
30-mess up
31-try to fix but fail
32-ask doomworld
33-wait until Epyo or Enjay come to the rescue
34-remind them how cool they are (DONT FORGET THAT STEP!)
35-make sure you did step 34
36-continue with map
37-step 30-34
38-...and 35...
39-and 37
40-another big battle
41-refill/recharge room, where ammo is stored
42-tough final stretch, where the action never stops...
43-...until you get to teh ultra boss, complete with a symetrically- fun room
44-put in the last hallway, leading to an uber cool-looking techie exit room
45-I forgot to add some repeats of steps 3 and 30-35, during 40-44, so just remember to do some of that
46-test
47-test
48-test
49-test and then do step 49 again
50-make sure detail and lighting is accurate. Make sure your lighting is 1337ly-1337!!!!!
51-steps 46-49
52-ask where to send for /newstuff chronicles
53-steps 32-35
54-send
55-steps 25-27
56-watch the flames and various fire-like elements
57-repeat all
58-step 34 as many times as you can don't forget!!!

That was fun, I should make more.

[DooMBoy]

1. Get a good, clear idea of what I want to see in my map.
2. Mull it over some in my head, switching ideas around, trying to get the one that "feels" right.
3. Select a level idea (always like a thousand floating about in my head).
4. Load up Deepsea and start editing.

[Cyrez]

Cyrez does step 34

Epyo & Enjay your the coolest :P

[Enjay]

Epyo said:

Enjay come to the rescue

Cyrez said:

Cyrez does step 34
Epyo & Enjay your the coolest :P

Awwww, I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy now. Do you know "all warm" and "fuzzy", my 2 pet hamsters? :-)

...and in the next episode of curious names...

Butt Winnet - Pilot of the 25th century, and his faithful side kick Scroat Nugget face the evil duo Dangerously Wet and Strangley Sticky.

Tune in same time next week.

[Cyrez]

Enjay said:

Awwww, I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy now. Do you know "all warm" and "fuzzy", my 2 pet hamsters? :-)

...and in the next episode of curious names...

Butt Winnet - Pilot of the 25th century, and his faithful side kick Scroat Nugget face the evil duo Dangerously Wet and Strangley Sticky.

Tune in same time next week.

Oh you need a nap real bad :)

[Mordeth]

First, choose your editors: either go with DCK 2.2f (the last freeware version) or Deepsea. Optionally: NWT for WAD handling, Neopaint / PSP for graphics editing. To make this short, I'll only deal with level editing here.

DCK v2.2f has an intuitive GUI, fast access to main controls and sector/linedef-based drawing. It is somewhat configurable for use with source ports, but usually crashes when clicking on 'weird' sector flags/types. It has a low linedef/sidedef upper limit which makes it impossible to create really large levels with it. It also has limits on the number of new patches and flats it can handle, which will again bring you into trouble when using a large resource WAD. Still, it will go a long way before you run into these problems.

Deepsea can do everything you want but the shareware version has an upper linedef limit - you need to buy it to work without limits. It is still updated, but it seems you are not always eligible for upgrades if you bought it once. Mainly linedef-based drawing, but you can insert sectors as easily. Also comes with its own WAD tools. Completely up-to-date with almost every source port. It's not an easy editor to learn, but comes with tutorials and it really can do everything you possibly want. I wouldn't recommend it to complete newbies though - try the ropes with DCK first. Requires a somewhat recent computer (I used to run into memory / speed problems when working on a Pentium 60 with 24MB RAM). This is my current editor of choice, and if it's good enough for Mordeth it's sure is good enough for you :)

Before you even start up your editor, you need to have a pretty good idea of what you want. Choose your engine. Don't use a particular engine for just one gimmick... when going for a source port make use of most, if not all, its features. Choose your theme (texture choices) and setting (spaceship, or city, etc) beforehand. Do not mix themes or settings (eg. half a level inside a spaceship, the other half in a city). Stick to it when designing your level, but - very importantly - always be on the lookout to improve on it, or even switch tactics / architecture when not pleased with the result. When actually designing, playtest often... and I don't mean actually playing the level, but more like looking around. I can spend ages in a half-finished room, just looking, because in-game you can develop a "feel" for the architecture... light settings, dimensions of a room, monster placement... you can judge or envision these so much better in-game. My best ideas come from 'seeing' stuff while wandering around in-game. Then go back to your editor, and put your ideas or improvements into the map.

Don't put off detailing too long. When you're satisfied with the basic layout of a room or corridor (dimension, light setting) start putting in detail. Keep in mind that you can merge identical sectors in the same surroundings. Take note of the grid, and try to align your floors to it (not always possible, or even needed).

While designing, try to not make your level too linear but allow the player some freedom to explore. Exploration is a very important part of gameplay. When the architecture is almost done, start paying close attention to the monster / health / ammo balance. Playtest, but this time for real and see where you run into trouble. Rule of thumb: if you cannot finish a level, somebody else won't be able to either. Do not use secrets when testing balance, nor require the player to find a secret to finish a level, and always avoid to get the player trapped or stuck.

Make sure only those monsters wake up which are needed to keep the player occupied. It's a waste of CPU power to letting the player wake up monsters he won't even see for the next half hour. Do a reject map build (use RMB) when your level is done.

When using tricks or suspended middle texture, make sure monsters don't wander in and ruin it.

If you don't have the inspiration to work on your level, don't. Either wait for inspiration to return, or work on something else in the meantime. This sure does slow development down, but it assures that all your work is top-notch.