Why there is no glitchless category in Doom speedrunning?

[MrHellstorm17]

Like, without utilizing all sorts of glides, through-wall-grabs etc. Just straightforward gameplay as intented by level designers, but done quick. As far as I know, contemporary games where going out of bounds and skipping the majority of the game is a common thing usually feature glitchless category. So, why doesn't classic Doom have it? On the contrary, it has some really obscure categories e.g. MMH.

[Edward850]

Be the change you want to see.

Though FYI, you may just be looking for UV MAX runs, as glitches benefit that category the least given you already have to complete everything inside the map in the first place.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Edward850

[baja blast rd.]

1 hour ago, MrHellstorm17 said:

Like, without utilizing all sorts of glides, through-wall-grabs etc. Just straightforward gameplay as intented by level designers, but done quick. As far as I know, contemporary games where going out of bounds and skipping the majority of the game is a common thing usually feature glitchless category. So, why doesn't classic Doom have it? On the contrary, it has some really obscure categories e.g. MMH.

 

Doom predates contemporary games' concept of a "glitchless category." In the olden times the runs had many fewer tricks. So for those reasons it would not have made sense to have such a category long ago.

 

A lot of the more common tricks slowly built up over the years, accelerating more in recent times w/ stuff like zero presses and somewhat more common void glides. But even then, most tricks are difficult jumps of various kinds, and tricks are far from skipping the majority of the game, so it still doesn't make a great deal of sense. 

 

It's not like you glide out of map02 right into the Icon of Sin map. Besides, speedruns are so entangled with very mundane "tricks" (like SR40, which is not intended by the designers) that it would be way too much trouble than it's worth to try and determine what a "glitchless" category is. 

Also there's a way cooler category Stroller that exists and scratches glitchless itches anyway.

 

 

About MMH existing, that doesn't mean anything because no one runs it at all and hasn't for a while. It's more a historical footnote. 

 

 

 

I remembered that sometimes people do "intended run" routes for various maps...

 

...okay I stopped and actually watched parts of them and they still press the switches underground before they are visible, breaking intended progression that way. All they do is avoid the first glide that ends the map in seconds. Which is a perfect example of why people don't bother with this; you'd have to legislate every trick and jump not allowed and not allowed (pressing the switches in the proper order would be a very different run). Also note that in general, a lot of skips are possible without tricks, and not all tricks are skips, so just saying "no glides, no vilejumps (lol), etc." would not be enough to enforce mapper intent. There's also lots of weird stuff like linedef skips and "waiting for a monster to block a door to skip a lock-in" which can happen intentionally but also inadvertently. Sounds like a big chore.

 

If someone wants to do a speedrun of something that avoids tricks and jumps that seem like skips, nothing is stopping them or has stopped them; I'm pretty sure plenty of people have done that. The question really becomes not that, but why multiple people were never interested in putting a bunch of effort into meticulously deciding which tricks/skips are kosher and which aren't on a per-map basis. And the answer to that question should be obvious now. 

[Shepardus]

Technically straferunning is a glitch, so if you want your run to be truly "glitchless" you'd better not press forward and a strafe key at the same time. Of course you could be more selective in what's considered a "glitch" (that's how other games' "glitchless" categories are), but the devil's in the details. What's the "intended" way to play? If Zero Master discovers a new trick tomorrow, would it be allowed? Is the rocket jump to the E3M6 secret exit allowed since that was the intended way to reach the exit? How about the one in MAP07? If a player accidentally skips a linedef trigger, is the run invalidated? Oftentimes these are just a reflection of the opinions of those with influence at the time the decision is made.

 

With that aside...

 

There hasn't been much demand for a "glitchless" category among active Doom speedrunners to push past the hurdles, and I think there's a number of good reasons for that. One is that Doom isn't nearly as broken as many other games with glitchless categories. Sure, there are levels that go by in a flash, but it's nothing like skipping the entire game to the final boss like you see in some games. The tricks that do exist are often difficult to pull off, and the nuance they add is what appeals to the people who run Doom.

 

Another reason is that existing categories besides UV Speed cover much of the niche that "glitchless" would appeal to, like "not skipping 90% of a cool level." There are still glitches used in UV Max and NM 100S runs, but by the nature of those categories they showcase a lot that you wouldn't see in UV Speed. UV Max in particular tends to align close to what most would imagine as "intended gameplay done quick."

 

One more reason is that much of Doom speedrunning today, as seen on DSDA, takes place on PWADs rather than the original levels. While it may be possible to settle on a set of "glitchless" rules for the IWADs, it's absolutely unscalable for the literally thousands of PWADs on DSDA. This isn't a problem most games face because they don't have a significant focus on speedrunning user-made content. The ones that do tend to adopt practices similar to DSDA, as far as I'm aware.

[heliumlamb]

i don't give an iota of a hoot about "fast video game playing/competitionist video game game playing but also fast". yet it's pretty much impossible for me to *not* at least straferun in some form or another, and some might consider that a glitch. (and, over in quake, it is 100% impossible for me to not circle jump, bnuuy hop and spend 20 minutes seeing how i can launch myself off of any given sloped surface any time i boot that game up, and i've had people decry that mere act of hopping around as a hooligan as "speedrunner tricks", which is far from the truth)

whatever, more tools for the collective doom-consciousness to use, regardless of intent.

Edited March 3, 2023 by heliumlamb : +to not, where needed

[Mr Masker]

I feel like you'd probably need to go through what strategies count as, "glitches"

 

As other people have said, would straferunning, rocketjumping etc be allowed?

[Klear]

This is why "glitchless" categories are starting to be called "no major glitches". Too many edge cases. Also a lot of minor glitches make speedrunning more fun/technical.

 

Ultimately the categories are set up to accommodate people who enjoy running the games, not what some watchers consider "gameplay as intented".

 

Plus weren't the more egregious glitches like void glides only implemented into runs recently? There might not have been enough time for this discussion to take place yet, with the game being mostly solid for most of its life.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Klear : typo

[Doomy__Doom]

2 hours ago, MrHellstorm17 said:

without utilizing all sorts of glides

2 hours ago, MrHellstorm17 said:

gameplay as intented by level designers

 

Once you go through all the trouble to define what are glitches, a map is going to come and ruin your day :)

 

Source: Disorder map06 (flipped vertically for readability)

[LexiMax]

Given recent out-of-bounds tricks, I could see "No out-of-bounds" being a reasonable category.  As in, no going into the void.

[Kinsie]

Every Glitchless% category is ultimately a Glitchless-Except-For-The-Specific-Glitches-The-Speedrun.com-Moderator-Leans-On-For-Their-Leaderboard-Spot% run. What's the point?

[heliumlamb]

15 minutes ago, Kinsie said:

Every Glitchless% category is ultimately a Glitchless-Except-For-The-Specific-Glitches-The-Speedrun.com-Moderator-Leans-On-For-Their-Leaderboard-Spot% run. What's the point? 

see

 

1 hour ago, Klear said:

This is why "glitchless" categories are starting to be called "no major glitches". Too many edge cases. Also a lot of minor glitches make speedrunning more fun/technical.

don't forget to have fun playing the video game(s), however one may want to play the video game(s)!

[Dweller Dark]

Would John Romero's par times count as glitchless runs? I know he's the one who did those, but I'm not sure if they were glitchless or not.

[Maribo]

3 hours ago, MrHellstorm17 said:

On the contrary, it has some really obscure categories e.g. MMH.

Worth mentioning that MMH is essentially a dead category (same with Collector, although for different reasons). UV-Respawn and UV-Fast are also not very popular, they pretty much each have a couple of dedicated runners in current year and that's about it.

 

Anyway, if you're talking for DSDA, then you're totally allowed to submit whatever demos you want, even "glitchless" stuff, but they won't have their own category and probably won't for the forseeable future, if ever. Doom's categorization is significantly different to other speed games, which is design that's only really shared by like... Quake, lol. I also think that getting into what would count as a "major glitch" is borderline unfeasible for Doom, because like... what do you define as major? We spend every possible second straferunning because it's significantly faster, does that mean that it's a major glitch even though it's incredibly easy to perform? Void glides are obviously major because you're literally exiting the playable map space, but what about rocket jumping? Archvile jumping? Wallruns? It's a massive headache and I don't really think anyone wants to sit down and hash out the entire Doom Movement Bible to come to a consensus on what's "major" and "minor" in Doom.

[GarrettChan]

53 minutes ago, Maribo said:

Doom's categorization is significantly different to other speed games, which is design that's only really shared by like... Quake, lol.

Although I'm not defending that UV -Fast and UV -Respawn (or maybe even Tyson) are kinda towards the meme side, have to say they were kinda smart that you can use a parameter to alter the gameplay a little bit (or a lot whichever you prefer).

 

It seems from around 2016, games like to have customizable difficulty etc., but they just add/remove some features in the game, which doesn't really change the gameplay like "-Fast" and "-Respawn".

 

With this, I still want to see UV -Fast and UV -Respawn to be there because occasionally I would like to run them.

[Graf Zahl]

The big question here is indeed what constitutes a glitch and what doesn't.

Aside from a few gotchas Doom is a relatively robust engine where you cannot do outlandish things like walking through solid walls. And straferunning for example is so commonplace that several maps out there require it to complete them or get all secrets.

 

 

If this was Duke Nukem, things would be different because if you know how you CAN walk through walls or cross obstacles you are not supposed to.

[4shockblast]

There aren't actually any major game-breaking glitches in the game, I'd say. Outside of TAS, we haven't seen heavy use of void glides to dominate runs in the same way OOB dominates other games, so there's not much point even having a no-OOB category. As Maribo pointed out, if anything, the most major glitch is straferunning given how often it is implemented, but I hardly think you'll have anyone interested in running Doom without straferunning (unless it's Stroller). That said, intended route runs are something we do sometimes if it's fun; you can see some here for Sunder map 5 for example (although really, that's more of a no-glide route run as it still abuses infinite height switches but w/e). But defining proper glitches or even no major glitches is too difficult and IMO pointless, as I don't know of any major runners currently who have expressed any interest in this.

 

BTW, MMH is basically not a real category, so it's not really a point of discussion. It was actually excluded from the current DSDA, and submissions for it will never be accepted basically as it never made much sense.

 

Also, I wouldn't even necessarily qualify gliding as a glitch anyway. It's a 32-unit gap that a 32-unit wide player can enter; by definition, it should be possible, it's just that map authors up until the late 90s or w/e didn't know how. Yeah, you use some specific techniques to make it work, but those techniques are literally just the way Doom movement/physics work, so idk how you can define those as glitches either.

[darmok]

Because you'll get into an endless debate about what constitutes a glitch.

 

I don't really follow speedrunning but I wasn't aware that there are many glitchless categories for other games.

[Bauul]

6 hours ago, baja blast rd. said:

like SR40, which is not intended by the designers

 

I didn't realize SR40 wasn't an intended effect - do we have information anywhere on how we came to know id didn't intend for it to happen?

[boris]

10 minutes ago, Bauul said:

 

I didn't realize SR40 wasn't an intended effect - do we have information anywhere on how we came to know id didn't intend for it to happen?

 

From https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Straferunning:

 

Quote

According to John Romero, straferunning did not come about until almost a year after Doom's release, and was unanticipated in the design of the original levels.

 

[Kinetic]

11 hours ago, baja blast rd. said:

I remembered that sometimes people do "intended run" routes for various maps...

Intended routes/runs are cool, I think they can provide an interesting way to play the map without breaking progression as the mapper intended. Even then what's intended and what isn't is still a gray area and vague, but it usually can be mutually agreed what an intended route is vs progression breaking most of the time. Of course "intended route" can't be a category, since it would call for judgment on a map-by-map basis and very few people care about speedrunning a map as intended, and even they usually don't care often.

 

Anyways, running the intended route is awesome when it offers a significantly different experience than a more progression-breaking route. I think my favorite instance of this, are the Sunder Map19 maxes, I think it's absolutely amazing how the map was maxed in 2 completely different ways, one that destroys the progression of the map using tricks and another that just progresses through the map normally.

 

That's all I have to say, great to see maps run in completely separate ways, which comes up often in intended route vs. progression-breaking routes.

[ImproversGaming]

I am currently far too slow to be a speedrunner but have always enjoyed following the speedrunning escapades of the community and love the discovery mix provided by:

https://youtube.com/@DoomSpeedDemoArchive

 

So out of interest is there any sense of an "official" speedrun category or any group or people that approve or moderate new categories?

From my perspective it seems like people can do whatever they want. The DSDA archive is highly regarded, and I guess there are others, but looks like they are happy to support any demo entries:

Quote

The following categories and types are the most common and widely recognized, but this archive will host any demo.

 

Just interested as demos need to be reviewed (I assume) so it could require a lot of effort to check demos, particularly when the categories overlap. This is exacerbated when random new categories are created, like UV 50% or Barrels 100%, or whatever.

 

To be clear I dont intend to spray around new categories just have a general interest to know about how new categories are created or agreed, how demos are submitted, what the review process is and whether there is an omnipotent power that governs it all.

[Maribo]

I'll answer the stuff in this post that I can:

 

4 hours ago, ImproversGaming said:

I am currently far too slow to be a speedrunner but have always enjoyed following the speedrunning escapades of the community and love the discovery mix provided by:

https://youtube.com/@DoomSpeedDemoArchive

No one is too slow to speedrun. It's not an exclusive club that you have to get Really Good At to be let in. There's tons of value in doing stuff like submitting runs for wads that don't have any (filling tables, if you will), or just doing runs because you think it's fun. Side note: the DSDA twitch channel is more up to date than the DSDA YouTube (usually, ZM updates it a few times a year), runs 24/7 on Twitch, and has a system that weighs what will get played, so you're not just getting a stream of demos that are really old 15 minute maxes of wads from 1998.

 

4 hours ago, ImproversGaming said:

So out of interest is there any sense of an "official" speedrun category or any group or people that approve or moderate new categories?

This is a recreational hobby so anyone can, of course, make their own rules up and start running Doom however they want. However, the largest and easily most recognized set of categories are the ones listed on DSDA are the closest thing you'll find to an "official" list, although Collector demos are not being accepted to DSDA at this time (you can still post them in the demos forum, they just won't be scraped for upload). The people who decide these categories are the DSDA team, which you can find listed here.

 

4 hours ago, ImproversGaming said:

Just interested as demos need to be reviewed (I assume) so it could require a lot of effort to check demos, particularly when the categories overlap.

They're not reviewed in high scrutiny anymore, it's simply not feasible with the sheer number of demos being submitted. 4shock (and I presume Zero-Master as well) have scripts that scrape the forum's attachments and do basic sanity checks (proper complevel? Tyson demo that only uses Tyson weapons? Pacifist run that didn't do damage to monsters? all monsters dead and secrets tagged for Max? etc), but they're not sitting down and watching every single demo. Category overlap is not really common. You can also easily opt out of DSDA submission by simply not including a txt in the zip file, or by linking the demo via a service like dropbox or mega.nz instead of attaching it to the forum post.

 

4 hours ago, ImproversGaming said:

This is exacerbated when random new categories are created, like UV 50% or Barrels 100%, or whatever. 

New categories are really uncommon. Since I've been running, there haven't been any, and I think the last one added was Stroller. 4shock will probably see this and have a better concrete idea of how long it's been since there was actually a new full category, instead of something that gets relegated to a note about the run (for instance: Ballerina, which is holding a turn key for the entire runs, or UV-Tank, which is essentially Stroller UV-Max).

 

4 hours ago, ImproversGaming said:

how demos are submitted

Demos are submitted via the threads in the Demos forum over here. It really is as simple as writing a text file with info and zipping it with the demo itself. The welcome thread is intended to make it as quick and easy to understand as possible, but I would appreciate any feedback if it is confusing or hard to follow.

[Klear]

I like how if you go to the last page of E1M1 speedruns for the unity port and scroll down, you'll see a bunch of people running on a phone with touchscreen controls. They'll never get to the top that way, but who cares? It's a legit way to speedrun and I really like how they just submit the scores to the main leaderboard.

[ImproversGaming]

Spoiler

37 minutes ago, Maribo said:

I'll answer the stuff in this post that I can:

 

No one is too slow to speedrun. It's not an exclusive club that you have to get Really Good At to be let in. There's tons of value in doing stuff like submitting runs for wads that don't have any (filling tables, if you will), or just doing runs because you think it's fun. Side note: the DSDA twitch channel is more up to date than the DSDA YouTube (usually, ZM updates it a few times a year), runs 24/7 on Twitch, and has a system that weighs what will get played, so you're not just getting a stream of demos that are really old 15 minute maxes of wads from 1998.

 

This is a recreational hobby so anyone can, of course, make their own rules up and start running Doom however they want. However, the largest and easily most recognized set of categories are the ones listed on DSDA are the closest thing you'll find to an "official" list, although Collector demos are not being accepted to DSDA at this time (you can still post them in the demos forum, they just won't be scraped for upload). The people who decide these categories are the DSDA team, which you can find listed here.

 

They're not reviewed in high scrutiny anymore, it's simply not feasible with the sheer number of demos being submitted. 4shock (and I presume Zero-Master as well) have scripts that scrape the forum's attachments and do basic sanity checks (proper complevel? Tyson demo that only uses Tyson weapons? Pacifist run that didn't do damage to monsters? all monsters dead and secrets tagged for Max? etc), but they're not sitting down and watching every single demo. Category overlap is not really common. You can also easily opt out of DSDA submission by simply not including a txt in the zip file, or by linking the demo via a service like dropbox or mega.nz instead of attaching it to the forum post.

 

New categories are really uncommon. Since I've been running, there haven't been any, and I think the last one added was Stroller. 4shock will probably see this and have a better concrete idea of how long it's been since there was actually a new full category, instead of something that gets relegated to a note about the run (for instance: Ballerina, which is holding a turn key for the entire runs, or UV-Tank, which is essentially Stroller UV-Max).

 

Demos are submitted via the threads in the Demos forum over here. It really is as simple as writing a text file with info and zipping it with the demo itself. The welcome thread is intended to make it as quick and easy to understand as possible, but I would appreciate any feedback if it is confusing or hard to follow.

 

Thanks @Maribo this is just what I was looking for. Really nice to see the insights into how this works. Also, ya, I do like running fast so will keep your encouragement in mind. I was recently playing Go To It with a goal in mind of halving my original completion time - because I love playing that map and wanted to spice it up. It is a lot of fun to work out the strategies and play around with routing. However, rest assured that the record is not under threat, but it is very enjoyable and I will stick with it! Thanks!

Spoiler

11 minutes ago, Klear said:

I like how if you go to the last page of E1M1 speedruns for the unity port and scroll down, you'll see a bunch of people running on a phone with touchscreen controls. They'll never get to the top that way, but who cares? It's a legit way to speedrun and I really like how they just submit the scores to the main leaderboard.

 

@Klear absolutely, nice to see the variety and interest in speedrunning. There are lots of ways to do it and lots of fun to be had. Thanks.

[4shockblast]

The latest official categories were inducted during the perdgate demo pack actually, I think that was the time nomo100 and Stroller became first-rate categories on Andy's DSDA in 2016 or so. Both categories existed prior to that, but neither had their own specific sections.

 

The Cz-N demos were brought in around that time too, which is when Collector got named on DSDA, largely to support that comp.

[ChopBlock223]

On 3/3/2023 at 11:56 AM, MrHellstorm17 said:

Like, without utilizing all sorts of glides, through-wall-grabs etc. Just straightforward gameplay as intented by level designers, but done quick.

Kind of get where you're coming from, personally I'm not that put off by grabs and what not, but stuff like void glides aren't that fun to look at.

 

However, most people don't do void glides, they're only useful in some levels, and they're very difficult to do. So, maybe they'd fit in some sort of "VG" category, but they aren't common enough to ruin my fun as a spectator, being more like an occasional party trick for impressing nerds like me.

Maybe someone will come up with some fucking ridiculous arbitrary code execution to let them comfortably b-line it to every exit in seconds, or toggling the end screen, but I feel like that would be a passing novelty, speedrunners are still looking to actually play the game in some capacity.

 

The only thing I lament is the (relative) lack of Tyson runs, would love to see one of the pros knuckle their way through one of the games on -fastmonsters, for the sheer spectacle and sick moves, even if just as a segmented run.

 

On 3/3/2023 at 5:11 PM, Graf Zahl said:

Aside from a few gotchas Doom is a relatively robust engine where you cannot do outlandish things like walking through solid walls.

Maybe this is one of the gotchas, but countless runs exhibit grabbing items not meant to be reached from where they are, hitting switches not yet intended to be reachable, and squeezing through barriers meant to prevent the player from getting through without a key, switch, or outright going around.

 

Then there's the more recent void glides, one example being the runner breaking out of E1M8 to move directly to the room with the hurt exit at the end, skipping the Barons entirely. It's easier to do that kinda stuff in Duke Nukem 3D because it's held together by chewed gum, but it's still in Doom.

 

That reminds me of how it would be fun if Doom had an equivalent to that Duke Dead Quick thing, where the goal is for the player to die as fast as possible.

[Foxpup]

2 hours ago, ChopBlock223 said:

Then there's the more recent void glides, one example being the runner breaking out of E1M8 to move directly to the room with the hurt exit at the end, skipping the Barons entirely.

That one's not a true void glide, though: it's an intercepts overflow, an entirely unrelated glitch. The reason it has only been utilised very recently is because it is almost impossible to trigger on demand (at least in the stock IWAD levels) and even harder still to do anything useful with: it completely disables all collision detection on the map, which means normal exit lines can't be triggered and bosses can't be killed, so the only way to complete the map is through the rarely used exit sector special. Trigger the glitch on any map which doesn't have such an exit (ie, literally anything except E1M8 and a very few PWAD maps) and you're stuck and have no option but to restart.

[Klear]

2 hours ago, ChopBlock223 said:

It's easier to do that kinda stuff in Duke Nukem 3D because it's held together by chewed gum, but it's still in Doom.

 

Is it? It's been ages since I played, but I remember going out of bounds in any way (including the noclip cheat) just kills you instantly. I should look up some Duke speedruns...

[Beginner]

11 hours ago, ChopBlock223 said:

That reminds me of how it would be fun if Doom had an equivalent to that Duke Dead Quick thing, where the goal is for the player to die as fast as possible.

You're in luck, kinda... here's a series of demos by Alfonzo where the goal was to get player gibbed as soon as possible E1, E2, E3, E4.