Vanilla/limit-removing WADs with immersive settings

[continuum.mid]

One of the main things I love about Doom is its aesthetics - the blocky environments and colorful pixel textures. But most of the time, maps look like either abstract art pieces, or randomly connected rooms that vaguely resemble the setting the map is going for. This isn't a bad thing, as those can still look great and there's nothing wrong with optimizing for gameplay over visuals. However, I just beat Eternal Doom, and have been looking at Auger;Zenith, Epic 2, Lost Civilization, and those maps feel very different from other Doom sets I've played because I feel like I know what kind of place each map represents. Especially Auger;Zenith's cyberpunk cityscapes, Lost Civilization's sprawling adventures, and Jim Flynn's Doomcute-filled buildings in Eternal Doom. There are moments in other WADs that have this feel too, like the mini-city in Struggle: Antaresian Legacy's Infinity Edge, the bank heist of JPCP's Blood Fund Gang, the offices in early Going Down. But I want more than just a few overdetailed spectacles scattered throughout an abstract map. I want maps that have a real sense of place.

 

It seems common for GZDoom maps to be designed this way, but I prefer to stay close to vanilla-style gameplay and visuals when I can. So, are there other vanilla/limit-removing, or even light Boom/MBF WADs that match or exceed the above-mentioned WADs, in terms of the verisimilitude of their settings? Preferably without sacrificing gameplay all too much?

[baja blast rd.]

Solar Struggle is a very good example of that. I have to finish e4 but here's a shot for each of the first three episodes. 

 

  

 

[continuum.mid]

42 minutes ago, baja blast rd. said:

Solar Struggle is a very good example of that. I have to finish e4 but here's a shot for each of the first three episodes.  

This looks great. Really easy though, I got through the first three levels saveless on first try with almost no difficulty and only gave on e1m4 because I couldn't figure out how to progress.

 

Surprisingly, it looks just as cool with Freedoom:

Spoiler

(Am I the only one who regularly uses Freedoom to play WADs?)

[Omniarch]

One would be hard-pressed to find a vanilla mapset with a greater sense of place than the late Espi's Suspended in Dusk:

 

  

 

These screens really don't do the set justice, to be frank, but they do represent the average level of immersion reasonably well.

 

Back to Basics, by the same author, is similarly immersive, despite utilizing only D1 resources:

 

  

 

Again, these screens are not highlights: dozens of areas at this level of detail and beyond await any would-be basecrawler in Espi's lesser known masterpiece.

 

In a similar vein to the above, URE2020 generally tries to present itself in a pseudo-realist style, though Zylinderkatze is more willing to veer into abstraction than Espi:

 

  

 

Finally, it would be remiss of me not to take the opportunity to plug No End In Sight gratuitously. While the set is, on the whole, more of an abstract work, there are a surprising number of maps that do strive to establish a sense of place, best exemplified by E2M4:

 

  

 

In addition to the above, Scypek2's Three's a Crowd often ventures into pseudo-realist territory, especially in the third episode. Same can be said of TNT: Revilution, albiet to a lesser degree. Do note that all wads mentioned here are very much exploration-focused, with combat playing a supporting role. That doesn't make any of them dull, far from it: NEIS in particular can get pretty damn hairy at times, and Three's A Crowd's more challenging outings can be downright brutal.

[continuum.mid]

23 minutes ago, Omniarch said:

One would be hard-pressed to find a vanilla mapset with a greater sense of place than the late Espi's Suspended in Dusk: 

 

23 minutes ago, Omniarch said:

Back to Basics, by the same author, is similarly immersive, despite utilizing only D1 resources:

aha! I've heard all about Espi from the Cacowards and Top 100, so I'm surprised I haven't played these already. Anyway, these both look great - using Freedoom again to replace the vanilla textures:

 

Spoiler

 

Solar Struggle might be a bit closer to what I'm looking for, but I think these mini-episodes will be a great addition to my ever-expanding backlog.

 

I don't mind the exploration focus - after all, I just finished Eternal Doom - but I would like the puzzles to be at least a little easier than ED.

[PKr]

Have you played Mordeth?

[continuum.mid]

12 minutes ago, PKr said:

Have you played Mordeth?

no I haven't! Though judging by the first level it's exactly what I'm looking for. (Not quite sure of the right way to load it though, outside of DOSBox.)

[PKr]

1 minute ago, continuum.mid said:

no I haven't! Though judging by the first level it's exactly what I'm looking for. (Not quite sure of the right way to load it though, outside of DOSBox.)

In Chocolate Doom and Crispy Doom that would be:

-aa MDEUGRAP.WAD -file MORDETH.WAD -deh MORDETH.deh

[Wilster_Wonkels]

I remember Base Ganymede having good atmosphere

[continuum.mid]

6 minutes ago, PKr said:

In Chocolate Doom and Crispy Doom that would be:

-aa MDEUGRAP.WAD -file MORDETH.WAD -deh MORDETH.deh

Never had to use -aa before. Probably going to go with Chocolate Doom because it's a vanilla WAD. Thanks.

 

5 minutes ago, Wilster_Wonkels said:

I remember Base Ganymede having good atmosphere

 

Hmm. Maybe not quite what I'm looking for but it does look nice.

 

I'm surprised how many Ultimate Doom WADs I'm getting recommended here, you'd think it'd be harder to do detailing and combat setpieces with that more limited set of textures and enemies, but I guess that just pushes mappers harder.

[Omniarch]

39 minutes ago, continuum.mid said:

I'm surprised how many Ultimate Doom WADs I'm getting recommended here, you'd think it'd be harder to do detailing and combat setpieces with that more limited set of textures and enemies, but I guess that just pushes mappers harder.

UD maps, as a rule, tend to emphasize progression, secret-hunting and atmosphere over combat, likely due to the limited bestiary. As a result, setting-focused experiences make up a larger proportion of UD content vs D2 content. There's also the fact that UD represents the zero-level of the medium in terms of resource variety, which is bound to attract the kind of masochists who go out of their way to make detailed and immersive maps under the vanilla limits. That's my best guess as to why so many UD wads have been recommended thus far.

 

Incidentally, if you are interested in something a little more combat-oriented that still goes out of its way to establish a sense of place and overarching narrative, then Cheesewheel's Uprising is definitely worth checking out. While far more abstract in presentation than my earlier recommendations, most of the maps do have some sense of place, and great care has been taken to ensure seamless map-to-map progression that really grounds the setting. Do note that the set has some pretty major dehacked changes, though few of these alter the experience substantially from the base game.

[Wilster_Wonkels]

In that case Scythe 2 might be up your alley. Each episode carries a theme and does a good job conveying those themes. The first two episodes are Medieval and then Egyptian if that's what you're looking for.

[baja blast rd.]

Alpha Centauri by Nicolas Monti is another one. Even with the really loose, impressionistic texturing, you definitely get the sense that you are in highly specific places, such as this botany lab and decrepit subway.

 

 

[Klear]

I'm working on something close to what you describe. I want to have the maps connect in a way to make a clear sense of progression, but so far I only have map 1, map 7-ish and a map which will most likely not make the cut at all. ETA is about two or three years from now the way I'm progressing =D

 

It's boom-compatible and I'm only using stock textures, but I do make heavy use of Boom trickery.

[continuum.mid]

25 minutes ago, Omniarch said:

Incidentally, if you are interested in something a little more combat-oriented that still goes out of its way to establish a sense of place and overarching narrative, then Cheesewheel's Uprising is definitely worth checking out. While far more abstract in presentation than my earlier recommendations, most of the maps do have some sense of place, and great care has been taken to ensure seamless map-to-map progression that really grounds the setting. Do note that the set has some pretty major dehacked changes, though few of these alter the experience substantially from the base game. 

2021 was an unreasonably good year for Doom, wasn't it. This and Auger;Zenith only ended up getting Cacoward honorable mentions.

 

I really enjoyed Cheesewheel's contribution to PUSS IX, so I'll have to give Uprising a try sometime.

 

24 minutes ago, Wilster_Wonkels said:

In that case Scythe 2 might be up your alley. Each episode carries a theme and does a good job conveying those themes. The first two episodes are Medieval and then Egyptian if that's what you're looking for.

I have played Scythe 2, but gave up not long after reaching the hell episode. It was getting unreasonably difficult. But the visuals ARE great, some of the best of its time.

 

21 minutes ago, baja blast rd. said:

Alpha Centauri by Nicolas Monti is another one. Even with the really loose, impressionistic texturing, you definitely get the sense that you are in highly specific places, such as this botany lab and decrepit subway.

 

Looks very interesting, I like the open spaces and the alpha textures.

 

22 minutes ago, Klear said:

I'm working on something close to what you describe. I want to have the maps connect in a way to make a clear sense of progression, but so far I only have map 1, map 7-ish and a map which will most likely not make the cut at all. ETA is about two or three years from now the way I'm progressing =D 

 

It's boom-compatible and I'm only using stock textures, but I do make heavy use of Boom trickery.

 

Dunno if I'll be around then, but have fun with that. I do like the idea.

[Klear]

1 minute ago, continuum.mid said:

Dunno if I'll be around then, but have fun with that. I do like the idea.

 

Who knows? Maybe the final release will happen in a few months. Depends on when exactly I burn out, really =P

[Shepardus]

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Comatose or 5till L1 Complex yet.

[Obsidian]

Always keen to recommend Reconstruction/Decomposition .

[continuum.mid]

36 minutes ago, Shepardus said:

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Comatose or 5till L1 Complex yet.

I think I might have tried Comatose once but didn't get very far. In any case the atmosphere in both of these is excellent, and seems to take priority over the game play.

 

10 minutes ago, Obsidian said:

Always keen to recommend Reconstruction/Decomposition .

 

Also looks it has an excellent atmosphere, and I've never heard of it, so great find.

[Doomkid]

Just as a slight offshoot from the main driving force of this thread, I'm curious to hear about what everyone individually considers immersive when it comes to Doom maps (alongside the recommendations), if you'll humor me.

 

Personally, the stuff the keeps me the most rapt in a wad are:

- thematic consistency / themes changing as you progress in a way that makes some kind of sense (or is at least compelling),

- sense of place, even if that place is abstract.

 

Doomcute (and realism) are both fantastic ways to achieve immersion, but for me I think consistency of quality, tone, and atmosphere have to be even higher up when it comes to making me feel like I'm in the game's world. This is why, despite its age, I still consider Area51 an engrossing experience to this day. Definitely a great sense of place, while not being even remotely beholden to realistic ideas of how buildings should be laid out. Consistent level of detail, too. That wad informed so much of how I approach making my own wads.. well, the decent ones anyway.

 

I rarely feel immersed when playing wads that take the arcadey Doom 2 approach where sense of place and sense of consistency mean little. This is not always a bad thing, sometimes I want a "Doom challenge box" rather than a consistent world, but usually I do prefer that feeling of cohesion. Even my own wads with "arcadey" gameplay and lighter vibes have to have some sense of purpose: that makes a wad feel like a total package. Immersion almost fools me into feeling like I'm achieving something as I progress through a little world rather than simply mastering a series of arbitrary Doom challenges.

 

All this stuff said: I was totally enraptured in the what-could-have-been world of Beta Labs. It really felt like playing a 50/50 fusion of id and Tom Hall's original idea for Doom, and what Doom actually ended up as. I love that. The triple-whammy of Doomcute, emphasis on consistent mapping quality, and emphasis on consistent theming are what did it for me. I honestly feel like playing through that wad again just talking about it!

 

Also, as Abscission's #1 fan, I just have to mention it as well. I think it's the lowest "doomcute to immersion" ratio I've ever seen in a wad, truly. On one hand it has the abstract feel of not necessarily being a "specific place" similar to many other good older Doom maps, but what makes it engrossing are the moody/haunting MIDIs, pervasive darkness, consistent high-quality, and well-paced descent into a Hell that felt very unique among Doom wads - especially vanilla stuff. These things are what made it a special experience, particularly gripping compared even to other good Doom 2 sets.

[continuum.mid]

2 hours ago, Doomkid said:

Just as a slight offshoot from the main driving force of this thread, I'm curious to hear about what everyone individually considers immersive when it comes to Doom maps (alongside the recommendations), if you'll humor me.

 

Personally, the stuff the keeps me the most rapt in a wad are:

- thematic consistency / themes changing as you progress in a way that makes some kind of sense (or is at least compelling), 

- sense of place, even if that place is abstract. 

I think what I look for is a strong, unique aesthetic that remains consistent throughout or evolves in a compelling way. It also helps to have some sense of storytelling, and landmarks that invite close attention.

 

Gotta play Abcission sometime, given that it's one of the big new releases.

[Catpho]

As mentioned, Russian mappers are really good at this place-y feeling that you are after. My first rec would be Dragon Hunter's map 15 for Whitemare 2, "Floating World":

 

You should also try Sacrament if you haven't already. All maps (even the weaker ones) are very good at atmospherics, but the crown jewels are map02 and map13. the latter of which is one of the greatest maps to come out of the RDC:

 

Try everything in the Creative Progeny of this chapter of Roots as well. A.L.T. is a bit of a weird rec at first, but with the right mindset it's as immersive as anything.

I could go on for a long time, so I'll stop myself here at a more obscure rec. Obscure by virtue of being a WIP project, but the author uploads maps as they are finished so you can play them. BeeWen (who made the map13 i mentioned above, screenshot 2) is one of the true heirs to Eternal Doom's tradition of creating contemplative labyrinths that requires curiosity (important word, as I feel most of Eternal Doom relies on being inquisitive rather than true puzzle-solving with a few exceptions) and lateral thinking to get through, and the reward is a true journey. The wad I am recommending, Voyager, is his Eternal Doom, a megawad-length planet hopping adventure. Tons of varied, pretty locals rendered in lavish detail. Here's a sampler:

 

 

His maps tend to be tougher and more demanding than the average ED map, but they are really cool imo and that's really all that matters. He released another cool (but more abstract) megawad called Relyctum recently, but it didn't get much fanfare beyond a shout from the 2022 Cacos. He's a great mapper, jockeying for the top spot in the already highly regarded output from the RDC, but isn't really visible in the popularity contest due to most of his stuff ending up in CPs or WIPs, in addition to the language barrier. Hopefully, blurbs from his cult like this one can get more eyes on his works.

 

Since Voyager is a WIP, the releases are disparate. So I took the liberty of putting them all in one .zip.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Catpho

[Scypek2]

Three Is A Crowd certainly has its fair share of immersion and realism, though just as often its maps are as abstract as any other. I kept things deliberately simple in many of its aspects, which is no doubt why I actually got it released, while Dawn of the Arrow remains unfinished do this day. I always liked realistic settings though, and the most realistic thing I did finish and release was MAP12 of DMP2018 (Boom format, no custom resources). It's the biggest stand-alone map I've created and with plenty of immersion to be had, as you explore different sections of a grand human-made building. Built by very messed up humans, but still.

 

Self-promotion aside, I believe Doom 2 Reloaded definitely deserves a mention. While its story is pretty much the same as Doom 2's the aesthetic of it is very different, getting closer to Half Life at times. Very immersive, although I'd really recommend loading it up alongside a custom music pack, as the default Doom 2 midis don't really fit it well at all. A perfect megawad for trying out gameplay mods, too. It's not perfect in every way, but the architecture is great.

[Gez]

18 hours ago, Doomkid said:

Just as a slight offshoot from the main driving force of this thread, I'm curious to hear about what everyone individually considers immersive when it comes to Doom maps (alongside the recommendations), if you'll humor me.

Doom, I feel, is too simple and abstract a medium to really convey some sort of verisimilitude, so what matters most to me (as far as immersion is concerned) is how successful it is at evoking a place rather than representing a place. Which does tend to make semi-abstract levels more immersive than pseudo-realistic levels. One thing I'm a sucker for is environmental storytelling, place some details that make it look like something happened in there before you arrived.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Gez

[Helm]

22 hours ago, Obsidian said:

Always keen to recommend Reconstruction/Decomposition .

What an excellent experience that was. The automap dérive was silent poetry. Thank you for the recommendation.

Spoiler

 

 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Helm

[Celestin]

Speaking of the Russian community, I'd like to add Bloody Steel.