"people don't know how to make good doom1 wads"

[TimeOfDeath666]

I thought this was a funny and true clip from last night's /idgames playthrough:

 

 

[Barondante]

Only John Romero knows how!

[continuum.mid]

I thought Freedoom Phase 1 was fun, and SIGIL, but it's true that mowing down enemies with the chaingun and picking them off with the shotgun can get old, and having cacos and barons to rocket sometimes isn't nearly enough to add variety...

[Biz!]

REKKR is technically a Doom 1 Wad, though more-so Ultimate Doom because it uses replacements for the Doom 2 bestiary.

[Faceman2000]

Hard disagree. The regular shotgun is incredibly satisfying to use - I frequently swap to it when playing Doom 2 wads - and, as someone pointed out in the comments, the chaingun practically is a power weapon in Doom 1 since you can mow down the enemies with the lower health pools. No End in Sight, Sigil, Tech Gone Bad, DTWID, Double Impact, Switcheroom, Nihility. . . There’s a very healthy list of solid wads for Doom.

[Roofi]

I like to meditate on the meaning of my own life every time I shoot barons with my single-barreled shotgun. Boredom is good for your health.

[Doomkid]

Although I've played some Doom 1 wads that were great and remained entertaining throughout, I agree with pretty much every single word in this video. The SSG and the D2 monsters made the game stay fun to play for a longer time.

 

I will say that there's honestly plenty of boring Doom 2 wads that just mindlessly plop the D2 exclusives everywhere and let their cool attacks do all the gameplay legwork (even a lot of my maps have done this) - whereas a Doom 1 wad has to be well designed and use the enemies well to be fun. So in a sense, I think making a Doom 1 wad that's more fun than a standard Doom 2 wad is a great achievement.. but, as a rule of thumb, the Doom 2 assets simply allow for a lot more gameplay variety.

[the_kovic]

Don't make DOOM 1 WADs, make DOOM 64 WADs!

[TheDanMarine]

1 hour ago, Faceman2000 said:

Hard disagree. The regular shotgun is incredibly satisfying to use - I frequently swap to it when playing Doom 2 wads - and, as someone pointed out in the comments, the chaingun practically is a power weapon in Doom 1 since you can mow down the enemies with the lower health pools. No End in Sight, Sigil, Tech Gone Bad, DTWID, Double Impact, Switcheroom, Nihility. . . There’s a very healthy list of solid wads for Doom.

 

I started using the normal shotgun in D2 when I realized it was the same shotgun as it is in D1, that is that it's a workhorse that's good at literally everything (even long range sniping). now I only pop out the super shotty if I need the damage of a rocket launcher in a small, enclosed space, otherwise it's pretty much always more ammo efficient to use the shotgun. most people overuse the SSG though because they made it feel so good. 

 

as to the topic at hand? it's always harder to do more with less, so I can believe that good doom 1 wads are rare. the flipside though is that no one making levels for that game can spam archviles or pain elementals, so the kind of person who'd do that has to be content with spamming chaingunners everywhere which is still way easier to deal with.  

[Faceman2000]

42 minutes ago, TheDanMarine said:

the kind of person who'd do that has to be content with spamming chaingunners everywhere which is still way easier to deal with

Chaingunners aren't in D1 either. :P

[TheDanMarine]

1 hour ago, Faceman2000 said:

Chaingunners aren't in D1 either. :P

apparently I need to replay E4 of ultimate doom because my brain thought they were in there.

ah right, people spam barons in D1. 

 

edit: I opened up the game and now I remember, twelve shotgun guys in a small room is basically a makeshift chaingunner.

Edited April 19, 2023 by TheDanMarine

[StarTanned]

Pretty funny that I was just considering making an E2M5 level remake as my next map, and was wondering about whether to stick to only to the D1 roster, or include D2 as well. Maybe a hybrid would even work well for replay value, where HMP uses only D1 stuff, but UV uses D2 as well?

[OceanMadman]

Honestly I always have a hard time knowing if people would enjoy playing my map and if it could be considered "good", doesn't matter if it's Doom or Doom 2. What makes good gameplay anyway? I know that is subjective but I guess there is stuff most people can agree with.

[Lonespacemarine]

3 hours ago, the_kovic said:

Don't make DOOM 1 WADs, make DOOM 64 WADs!

Ah heck yes

[TheDanMarine]

10 minutes ago, OceanMadman said:

Honestly I always have a hard time knowing if people would enjoy playing my map and if it could be considered "good", doesn't matter if it's Doom or Doom 2. What makes good gameplay anyway? I know that is subjective but I guess there is stuff most people can agree with.

Spoiler

 

all the basic gamefeel stuff like enemies reacting to being shot and big beefy sound effects is taken care of for you with doom 1/2, so all  that's left (unless you're making custom weapons/enemies) is the level design. basically a good level has a "flow" to it that makes sure the player's never too confused about what to do or where to go while not being handholdy, and the challenge of the encounters themselves should be steadily increasing throughout, keeping variety in mind. 

 

let's look at some examples that most people would consider bad: a giant empty room with a single baron and a shotgun that's filled with ammo. what's the problem with this setup? it's boring. the baron is tanky and the shotgun takes a long time to take him down. there's also no reason to use the big empty space whatsoever aside from "dodge baron missile". 

 

so how would we modify this to make it more enjoyable? well, there are many options. you can close off the space and make it more cramped, making it far mor difficult to dodge baronfire. you can also give a shotgun with barely any ammo, and have the player explore the immediate area for enough to take him down. or, you could add more enemies to increase the gameplay variety and give them a more tactical use of ammo. "do I use the shotgun ammo I have to take down the baron, or spare some to clean up some imps and make things less dangerous, but risk not being able to kill him?" that's the kind of interesting choice you want your player to have to make. you can also do all of these things at the same time, and make a particularly tricky baron fight. 

 

on the steadily increasing challenge front, we have this bad example: a cyberdemon fight right at the start of a long level. starting at such a high point only gives you two options: escalate further (which risks you not being able to beat your own map, eventually) or start lower down and work your way up. doom 1 does this masterfully, because they kind of had to. players back then weren't skilled enough to start off fighting barons as normal enemies or dealing with a lot of traps while fighting, so none of that happened until the later episodes. it might seem boring to start your level off with fighting imps and zombiemen, but it's standard for a reason. it's a really easy way to make sure you have ways to escalate!   

 

on the subject of variety, that's something doom 1 and 2 give you fantastic tools for. every combination of enemies + the weapons + the environments you have access to gives you different styles of encounter. fighting pinkies with a berserk pack or a chainsaw vs fighting pinkies with a shotgun vs fighting pinkies with a berserk pack but they're over a nukage pit and there's no rad suit nearby are all three radically different encounters, despite using the exact same enemy. really think about what you want your player to end up doing, and whether or not it's fun to do. using the chaingun to mow down enemies and the rocket launcher to take down cacos (as mentioned earlier in the thread) is a staple because it's a very fun thing to do that's easy to come up with, but it does get boring after a while. considering things that are radically different, like having to chainsaw a cacodemon or using a berserk pack to take down a mancubus, will help you immensely even if they end up being bad ideas that you don't use. get into the habit of experimenting and it'll pay great dividends. 

 

finally, the level flow. this is the hardest part to describe, but I'll try. basically, there's tons of little tricks that add up to a good level. stuff like using lighting to guide the player around the level (half life is famous for this and doom itself uses it sometimes, like on e3m5 where the door they want you to start with is lit up like a christmas tree compared to the other three), making each area visually distinct from each other and giving places interesting landmarks so you can tell exactly where you are, having levels loop around into themselves to give you a better sense of place (one of romero's famous tips), putting more detail into places that are extra important so they stand out to the player better, and letting the player see places they can only get to later so that when they get there, they can anchor their sense of location by seeing the place they were earlier. 

 

and most importantly, playtest your level until you're sick of it. if that takes a really, really long time then you definitely have a good level. get other people to playtest if you can, but absolutely do it yourself and do it constantly. a well tested level is a well made level! 

 

I ended up writing a very lengthy post to help you out with what I think so don't unspoiler that until you're ready for a small essay. 

[TheShep]

5 hours ago, Roofi said:

I like to meditate on the meaning of my own life every time I shoot barons with my single-barreled shotgun. Boredom is good for your health.

 

hrPOG

[msx2plus]

4 hours ago, Doomkid said:

in a sense, I think making a Doom 1 wad that's more fun than a standard Doom 2 wad is a great achievement

exactly why Tambourine Tangerine blew my top. i wasn't even thinking about Doom 1 vs Doom 2 any more. pure forward-momentum gameplay. just so much fun and hugely inspiring.

[El Juancho]

Me when i kill 2 cacodemon and a baron with only a shotgun 

[OceanMadman]

2 hours ago, TheDanMarine said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

all the basic gamefeel stuff like enemies reacting to being shot and big beefy sound effects is taken care of for you with doom 1/2, so all  that's left (unless you're making custom weapons/enemies) is the level design. basically a good level has a "flow" to it that makes sure the player's never too confused about what to do or where to go while not being handholdy, and the challenge of the encounters themselves should be steadily increasing throughout, keeping variety in mind. 

 

let's look at some examples that most people would consider bad: a giant empty room with a single baron and a shotgun that's filled with ammo. what's the problem with this setup? it's boring. the baron is tanky and the shotgun takes a long time to take him down. there's also no reason to use the big empty space whatsoever aside from "dodge baron missile". 

 

so how would we modify this to make it more enjoyable? well, there are many options. you can close off the space and make it more cramped, making it far mor difficult to dodge baronfire. you can also give a shotgun with barely any ammo, and have the player explore the immediate area for enough to take him down. or, you could add more enemies to increase the gameplay variety and give them a more tactical use of ammo. "do I use the shotgun ammo I have to take down the baron, or spare some to clean up some imps and make things less dangerous, but risk not being able to kill him?" that's the kind of interesting choice you want your player to have to make. you can also do all of these things at the same time, and make a particularly tricky baron fight. 

 

on the steadily increasing challenge front, we have this bad example: a cyberdemon fight right at the start of a long level. starting at such a high point only gives you two options: escalate further (which risks you not being able to beat your own map, eventually) or start lower down and work your way up. doom 1 does this masterfully, because they kind of had to. players back then weren't skilled enough to start off fighting barons as normal enemies or dealing with a lot of traps while fighting, so none of that happened until the later episodes. it might seem boring to start your level off with fighting imps and zombiemen, but it's standard for a reason. it's a really easy way to make sure you have ways to escalate!   

 

on the subject of variety, that's something doom 1 and 2 give you fantastic tools for. every combination of enemies + the weapons + the environments you have access to gives you different styles of encounter. fighting pinkies with a berserk pack or a chainsaw vs fighting pinkies with a shotgun vs fighting pinkies with a berserk pack but they're over a nukage pit and there's no rad suit nearby are all three radically different encounters, despite using the exact same enemy. really think about what you want your player to end up doing, and whether or not it's fun to do. using the chaingun to mow down enemies and the rocket launcher to take down cacos (as mentioned earlier in the thread) is a staple because it's a very fun thing to do that's easy to come up with, but it does get boring after a while. considering things that are radically different, like having to chainsaw a cacodemon or using a berserk pack to take down a mancubus, will help you immensely even if they end up being bad ideas that you don't use. get into the habit of experimenting and it'll pay great dividends. 

 

finally, the level flow. this is the hardest part to describe, but I'll try. basically, there's tons of little tricks that add up to a good level. stuff like using lighting to guide the player around the level (half life is famous for this and doom itself uses it sometimes, like on e3m5 where the door they want you to start with is lit up like a christmas tree compared to the other three), making each area visually distinct from each other and giving places interesting landmarks so you can tell exactly where you are, having levels loop around into themselves to give you a better sense of place (one of romero's famous tips), putting more detail into places that are extra important so they stand out to the player better, and letting the player see places they can only get to later so that when they get there, they can anchor their sense of location by seeing the place they were earlier. 

 

and most importantly, playtest your level until you're sick of it. if that takes a really, really long time then you definitely have a good level. get other people to playtest if you can, but absolutely do it yourself and do it constantly. a well tested level is a well made level! 

 

I ended up writing a very lengthy post to help you out with what I think so don't unspoiler that until you're ready for a small essay. 

Thank you! I was expecting some short answer or a link to another thread, so it surprised me. I'll have some of these in mind.

[iDoT]

It's really strange to just say "People don't know how to make doom 1 maps"
it really means either he don't like doom 1 or he just didn't played alot of doom 1 as he said

check this list guys and tell me what's wrong with these WADS if you played them or tel mel if you never played them.

 

between () Means -by-

 

Episode Replacement:-

Spoiler

1.Return To Hadron (Cannonball) Episode 1 -2015 Episode 2 -2016 Episode 3 -2020
Amazing it's really fast on gameplay, my favorite map from episode 1 is E1M5, amazing work
Episode 2 also a good one I really liked it's final map
Episode 3 I'm almost Finishing it, it's harder than previous episodes

 

2.Double Impact (Rottking & Ralphis) -2011

 

3.Back To Basic (Espi) -2007

 

4.Sigil (John Romero) -2019

Good Episode by Romero, I haven't finished e5m7 and e5m8 yet

 

5.No Sleep For The Dead (Jan Van der Veken) -2016

 

6.Fava Beans (Sean Birkel) -1995
Nice Classic Episode

 

7.Infernovasion (The_SloVinator) -2020

It's really really Good episode with custom skybox and some textures and story
Give it a try

 

8.Alpha Accident: Terra Nova (Wraith777) -2016

I haven't finished it yet, but it's fun from what I played

 

9.Nihility: Infinite Teeth (Years) -2016

Nice episode with some dehacked patches

Megawads:-

Spoiler

1.No End In Sight (NaturalTvventy & Xaser & Christopher Lutz) -2017
It's a really good megawad that I think it is one or my favorite wad of all time
 
2.Doom The Way Id Did (Hellbent & other great mappers) -2011
I don't like it that much to be honest But first episode is a blast 

 

3.Doom the way id did Lost Episodes (Various) -2012
it's a 6 episodes megawad, Also it has alot of good maps I liked it more that doom the way id did

 

4.Base Ganymede Complete (Khorus) -2011

 

5.Solar Struggle (ViolentBeetle & Various Members) -2022
This megawad proves that mappers can make a doom 1 wad

 

6.Deathless (Jimmy) -2019
A 27 maps made in 9 days and Episode 4 is made in 2 nights
and it still a really good wad and short 

 

7.ConC.E.R.Ned (Cannonball) -2013

 

8.2002 A Doom Odyssey (Paul Corfiatis & Various) -2002

 

9.2022 A Doom Odyssey (Paul Corfiatis & Chris Hansen & Kristian Aro) -2022

A 5 Episodes Megawad
I haven't finished yet but I had fun from what I played

 

10.Stickney Station (Snaxalotl) -2022

 

11.Silence (By Wilster Wonkels) -2022

 

12.REKKER (Revae) -2018
A Great Total Convertion for vanilla doom
Also I haven't finish it yet but it's really good

 

13.RAGING ANARCHY (LateNightPerson) -2019

Good short megawad I liked it

 

Single Maps :-

Spoiler

1.Sharp Things (Xaser) -2013
didn't finish it

2.Doomsday of UAC (Leo Martin Lim) -1994

 maybe there are some wads I didn't Mention because I forgot or didn't play or never finished 

 

[F ⓔEURWAFFE ⓔ]

5 minutes ago, iDoT said:

It's really strange to just say "People don't know how to make doom 1 maps"
it really means either he don't like doom 1 or he just didn't played alot of doom 1 as he said

check this list guys and tell me what's wrong with these WADS if you played them or tel mel if you never played them.

 

between () Means -by-

 

Episode Replacement:-

  Reveal hidden contents

1.Return To Hadron (Cannonball) Episode 1 -2015 Episode 2 -2016 Episode 3 -2020
Amazing it's really fast on gameplay, my favorite map from episode 1 is E1M5, amazing work
Episode 2 also a good one I really liked it's final map
Episode 3 I'm almost Finishing it, it's harder than previous episodes

 

2.Double Impact (Rottking & Ralphis) -2011

 

3.Back To Basic (Espi) -2007

 

4.Sigil (John Romero) -2019

Good Episode by Romero, I haven't finished e5m7 and e5m8 yet

 

5.No Sleep For The Dead (Jan Van der Veken) -2016

 

6.Fava Beans (Sean Birkel) -1995
Nice Classic Episode

 

7.Infernovasion (The_SloVinator) -2020

It's really really Good episode with custom skybox and some textures and story
Give it a try

 

8.Alpha Accident: Terra Nova (Wraith777) -2016

I haven't finished it yet, but it's fun from what I played

 

9.Nihility: Infinite Teeth (Years) -2016

Nice episode with some dehacked patches

Megawads:-

  Reveal hidden contents

1.No End In Sight (NaturalTvventy & Xaser & Christopher Lutz) -2017
It's a really good megawad that I think it is one or my favorite wad of all time
 
2.Doom The Way Id Did (Hellbent & other great mappers) -2011
I don't like it that much to be honest But first episode is a blast 

 

3.Doom the way id did Lost Episodes (Various) -2012
it's a 6 episodes megawad, Also it has alot of good maps I liked it more that doom the way id did

 

4.Base Ganymede Complete (Khorus) -2011

 

5.Solar Struggle (ViolentBeetle & Various Members) -2022
This megawad proves that mappers can make a doom 1 wad

 

6.Deathless (Jimmy) -2019
A 27 maps made in 9 days and Episode 4 is made in 2 nights
and it still a really good wad and short 

 

7.ConC.E.R.Ned (Cannonball) -2013

 

8.2002 A Doom Odyssey (Paul Corfiatis & Various) -2002

 

9.2022 A Doom Odyssey (Paul Corfiatis & Chris Hansen & Kristian Aro) -2022

A 5 Episodes Megawad
I haven't finished yet but I had fun from what I played

 

10.Stickney Station (Snaxalotl) -2022

 

11.Silence (By Wilster Wonkels) -2022

 

12.REKKER (Revae) -2018
A Great Total Convertion for vanilla doom
Also I haven't finish it yet but it's really good

 

13.RAGING ANARCHY (LateNightPerson) -2019

Good short megawad I liked it

 

Single Maps :-

  Reveal hidden contents

1.Sharp Things (Xaser) -2013
didn't finish it

2.Doomsday of UAC (Leo Martin Lim) -1994

 maybe there are some wads I didn't Mention because I forgot or didn't play or never finished 

 

Completely unrelated but i love WLR, first time ive seen a carti fan on Doomworld

[Shepardus]

I'm inclined to agree, engaging combat just comes more naturally in Doom II, while it takes more active effort on the part of the map maker to do the same with Doom 1. Sometimes I just want to shotgun low-tier monsters and chill without worrying about whether there's an arch-vile around the corner, though.

 

For a good Doom 1 WAD, check out Return to Hadron. All three episodes are excellent.

[Superjustinbros]

I always preferred Doom II's combat over Doom 1's because of the greater variety of monsters and most of them not following the same basic template of "walk towards you and fire a projectile". You have to get creative with how you approach Revenants and Arch-viles, for example, and the SSG opens up lots of options for expanding the combat with more stronger units at once without having to take out the risky Rocket Launcher or the expensive BFG.

[iDoT]

1 hour ago, F ⓔEURWAFFE ⓔ said:

Completely unrelated but i love WLR, first time ive seen a carti fan on Doomworld

I really find it strange that this album was really good, Nice to see a Whole lotta Red fan :D

 

[Lucius Wooding]

The thing I notice with Doom 1 stuff is that the weapon progression kind of peaks with the shotgun and chaingun vs stuff similar to or weaker than pinkies. With only pistol it sucks, and the rocket launcher doesn't really have much of a lane in the original levels since they're mostly fairly small areas. Cacos are kind of hard to use in tight quarters and more of a nuisance in open areas, since they're better at filling space than anything else. Compare that to, for example, revenants and archviles that can easily traverse hallways like most enemies. They can actually chase you down where cacos tend to be easy to avoid.

 

But with good use of layout, hurtfloors and narrow ledges to restrict the player's movement, it's possible to make fun tactical combat and vary the pace of gameplay a bit. In E1 I find you're fighting your way around a corner or shooting through an opening a lot more than in Doom 2 where there are monsters all around quite frequently. With the emphasis on hitscan in Doom 1, this helps them to not be so punishing since you don't have so many fronts to cover; you can just slow down and play carefully to save health. In Doom 2 it makes prioritizing chaingunners very important but combat is overall more based on movement and a bit of crowd control.

 

I think the monsters and SSG added in Doom 2 also make cramped areas that are more filled with monsters a lot more survivable, since you get a lot more infighting and can generally deal damage without having to create as much space. In Doom 1 unless you have access to plasma, you really have to trade off your DPS against being able to take cover or dodge. With the SSG you can peekaboo shoot quite safely in a lot of cases and still be dealing lots of damage without the exposure of using a chaingun (or having to retreat constantly which slows combat way down).

 

Also, in open areas things like archviles, revenants, and arachnotrons still pose a viable threat that can take time and patience to wear down. In Doom 1 in those types of areas you can snipe off all the hitscan and then the threat is over. Plus you can create infighting much more easily with a variety of monsters, especially since they can survive one another's attacks and actually retaliate.

 

Finally, if I may step onto the soapbox for a moment, I think using explosive barrels in a Doom 1 setup is crucial and it's one of the things Romero did pretty well in E1. It lets you keep the chaingun/shotgun as the dominant weapon but rewards you with extra AoE damage while also being an interesting hazard. Plus it can easily turn a baron into a hell knight or make what looks like a big scary crowd of enemies thin out considerably to make the chaingun and shotgun feel a lot more powerful as you sweep up. I also think the berserk is arguably better in Doom 1 than Doom 2 since most of the new monsters are bad for punching. 

[Captain Keen]

I strongly disagree… and also kinda agree.

 

I love the general vibe and look of Doom over Doom II, and for both vanilla textures and vanilla levels (at least KDITD) it’s my favorite of any of the official Doom releases. There have also been some FANTASTIC and highly entertaining Doom 1 wads lately (2022ADO, Silence, Stickney, etc)

 

With that said, the expanded bestiary of Doom II was much needed, and the SSG was a perfect addition, and I think have added to the staying power of the game. But the actual look and levels of Doom II was a major downgrade to me. In other words, Doom II added amazing features that created a better playground, but the original Doom still holds up better when played today and it’s absolutely possible to make cool wads for it that aren’t tedious or boring.

[Biodegradable]

I usually resist Doom 1 maps for the same reason, but there is one fella who's making a difference and his name is @Sectorslayer. Everything he has made for Doom 1 is fantastic and worth your time.

 

 

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

15 hours ago, OceanMadman said:

Honestly I always have a hard time knowing if people would enjoy playing my map and if it could be considered "good", doesn't matter if it's Doom or Doom 2. What makes good gameplay anyway? I know that is subjective but I guess there is stuff most people can agree with.

Make the maps you'd want to play. 

[xScavengerWolfx]

So since i started doing Doom 1 mapping thanks to Snax's Stickely Installation wad. I prefer Doom 1 over Doom 2 mapping. Now i only say this because i started my mapping carrier with Doom 2 then i worked my way to Doom 1. 

 

I like Doom 1 mapping more because i like to work within the limits of the enemies, health, ammo ect ect. I mean sure my maps look like a teenager from the early 2000's made them but they have a charm to them. I don't like the super fancy "Look at the crazy shit i can do with a 30+ year game engine".

 

I always have one rule of thumb i keep in mind when i'm mapping, and i think newer mappers should follow it as well. The rule of thumb is the kiss factor. (the kiss factor stands for Keep It Simple Stupid). I like to keep my maps quick, simple and easy to play for non hardcore players. Oh though i have though of making a extreme version of some of the maps i've made done so far as a "you wanna sweat? here you go".

 

Overall the whole "people don't know how to make a good doom 1 wad" quote, i feel like it's kinda a bit of a "fuck you if your an enjoyer of Doom 1 and not Doom 2" Also i want to take a moment and say the part of "playing with a single barrel shotgun is boring and when doom 2 came out with the super shotgun was better" Ok man first off i wanna ask, what types of wads we're you playing to come up with that? secondly there are some people that like to withhold the "power weapons" from the player so they don't get bored and think there in a power fantasy fight. Third: This line kinda erkked me a little "As soon Doom 2 came out Doom 1 wads were nothing anymore"

 

You do know if it wasn't for Doom 1 wads, we wouldn't have doom 2 wads. So saying that statement is kinda dumb in my option that would be like saying "I can build a house without laying down the foundation first and it will stand on it's own". Ok i've starting to rant now but i'll make a TL;DC part.

 

TL;DC: The comments about no one makes good doom 1 wads would be saying no one makes good mods for the game. Just the whole thing is more of someone just like doom 2 more because of the power fantasy of having over powered weapons and power ups. 

[Somniac]

Its definitely a bit harder and requires you to think more about enemies, texturing and so on, but sometimes less is more. Not just being able to slap down Chaingunners, Revs or an SSG to easily spice up encounters is definitely it's own challenge though. That said, Ultimate Doom tends to work well for slower paced, moody gameplay IMO. The regular Shotgun gets a lot more time to shine without being overshadowed by its beefier cousin (though it is still very useful in Doom II).