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LexiMax

Intel proposes transition to 64-bit only architecture

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So it looks like Intel is proposing a future that removes the ability for their chips to run in 16-bit and 32-bit mode.

 

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/developer/articles/technical/envisioning-future-simplified-architecture.html

 

To be clear, this does not remove the ability for x86 chips to run 32-bit code.  However, it does seem to be proposing the ability for their future x86 chips to boot natively into 64-bit mode, and to get rid of:

  • 16-bit Real Mode.
  • Virtual 8086 Mode.
  • Protected Mode.
  • 32-bit support in Ring 0, which is what OS's use to communicate with hardware.
  • All of the legacy parts of the ISA associated with these older modes.

In other words, if this proposal for the "x86S" architecture goes through, you'll only be able to run 64-bit operating systems on future Intel chips.

 

Overall, it seems like something that was a long time coming, as it's conforming to the state of the current PC market.  It's not terribly common to be running 32-bit operating systems these days, and you can't even buy a 32-bit copy of Windows 11.  The 16-bit Real Mode is long past time to go, since it more resembles an 80's microcomputer than a modern chip, and you're better off emulating it these days.  But I think a good number of us are old enough to remember having to deal with DOS, Windows 98, Windows XP, and other older operating systems that would no longer be natively supported by these new chips.

Edited by LexiMax

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It's about time to excise all that old baggage. But wanna bet that some people will still complain? >D

 

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It's about time.  The old legacy parts of the ISA are long in the tooth, and to be quite honest probably see not much use in real-world scenarios anymore.  Beyond novelty purposes there is no real need to support anything that old.

 

And now to wait for the experts and geniuses to come chime in about how wrong I am.

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So let me make sure I'm getting this right. Is Intel proposing a drop of 32-bit compatibility in such a way that you can't run 32-bit programs on 64-bit Windows?

 

Because if that's the case, that's fucking terrible. I really hope I'm wrong on that.

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23 minutes ago, vyruss said:

It's about time.  The old legacy parts of the ISA are long in the tooth, and to be quite honest probably see not much use in real-world scenarios anymore.  Beyond novelty purposes there is no real need to support anything that old.

 

And now to wait for the experts and geniuses to come chime in about how wrong I am.

Pretty sure most real-world legacy software for this sort of thing has either been ported to modern solutions like cloud hosting, stuffed inside some future-proof shell like a VM or emulator, or is so incredibly legacy that it's using uncommented COBALT from the 1970s where it's literally cheaper and safer to hurl a swarm of retirees at keeping it alive than to rewrite it to modern standards.

 

 

Just now, OpenRift said:

So let me make sure I'm getting this right. Is Intel proposing a drop of 32-bit compatibility in such a way that you can't run 32-bit programs on 64-bit Windows?

 

Because if that's the case, that's fucking terrible. I really hope I'm wrong on that.

Windows already handles all the 32-bit app compatibility in such a way that this change wouldn't effect it. Intel isn't completely stupid! Just merely decently stupid.

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17 minutes ago, Kinsie said:

Windows already handles all the 32-bit app compatibility in such a way that this change wouldn't effect it. Intel isn't completely stupid! Just merely decently stupid.

Oh thank God. I hope most of the popular linux distros have something similar for 32-bit Linux programs.

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Welp, Intel is about to ditch 32-bit programs, we are kinda forced to rely on PC Emulation (or retro pc) for older Windows games :/

 

For Linux, well that an other story, knowing Linux for not being very compatible with older 32-bit programs (especially software that uses very old libraries)

Knowing some old librairies that still works on Linux through 32-bit (like PLIB) will have to have some sort of fork that can save those from not being compatible on newer systems.

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1 minute ago, sudolinux said:

Welp, Intel is about to ditch 32-bit programs, we are kinda forced to rely on PC Emulation (or retro pc) for older Windows games :/

 

 

What's up with the reading impairment? Did you even READ the original post?

 

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37 minutes ago, OpenRift said:

So let me make sure I'm getting this right. Is Intel proposing a drop of 32-bit compatibility in such a way that you can't run 32-bit programs on 64-bit Windows?

 

No offense, but did you read my original post?  I even bolded it.  I ask not to call you out, but because if something I wrote was unclear I want to pick better language in the future.

 

And just to put a point on things 32-bit programs will run fine, so long as you're running a 64-bit OS and the program does not call into 32-bit Ring 0 or use any of the old legacy 32-bit ISA.  This only effects you if you're running 16-bit code natively, running a 32-bit operating system, using a 32-bit device driver, or relying on any of the legacy ways of doing I/O that afaik are not even available in 64-bit mode.

 

Basically, you can't run 32-bit Windows XP, 16-bit FreeDOS, or use any device that never had 64-bit drivers released for it.  Everything else is fine, and you can still run that copy of Half Life you bought in 1998.

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1 minute ago, LexiMax said:

 

No offense, but did you read my original post?  I even bolded it.  I ask not to call you out, but because if something I wrote was unclear I want to pick better language in the future.

 

And just to put a point on things 32-bit programs will run fine, so long as you're running a 64-bit OS and the program does not call into 32-bit Ring 0 or use any of the old legacy 32-bit ISA.

Sorry I think I just misread it. :shrug:

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1 minute ago, Graf Zahl said:

 

What's up with the reading impairment? Did you even READ the original post?

 

image.png.945ea0175ae90bc7d979ff5d11ad6fde.png

 

Ok yeah i did not read that, my fault.

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Holding back the overwhelming majority for a tiny minority still reliant upon outdated software makes no sense so this is a good thing. Tech moves on and always has. Vms will presumably fill any gaps for crazy old stuff.

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If I remember correctly, none of the modern processors use actual x86 and x64. Instead, they convert x86/x64 commands to their internal CPU architectures.

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28 minutes ago, Dimon12321 said:

If I remember correctly, none of the modern processors use actual x86 and x64. Instead, they convert x86/x64 commands to their internal CPU architectures.

Pretty sure this is only certain laptop processors. It allows lower power consumption with the trade-off of performance.

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28 minutes ago, Dimon12321 said:

If I remember correctly, none of the modern processors use actual x86 and x64. Instead, they convert x86/x64 commands to their internal CPU architectures.

You're thinking of ARM. x86 CPUs don't translate their own instruction set, that would be absurdly redundant.

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56 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

You're thinking of ARM. x86 CPUs don't translate their own instruction set, that would be absurdly redundant.

There was this:

 

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Just curios, has someone an Example for a 16 Bit Program that can run on a modern Machine?

 

Have a couple on my preset Dosbox under Win 3.11, but none starts under Win 10 :>

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Also, Windows 10 no longer supports the older platter HDDs anymore. You can only install it on any number of non-mechanical flash or SSDs. If you even, try to have Windows 10 installed on an older mechanical drive it will run slower than molasses.

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They had their chance when they bought AXP and sat on it. They had their chance when they created Itanic and it was crap. While this is a sensible move, it could have been started years ago with a move to a better CPU and JIT compiling of x86 code (like Microsoft had for NT on AXP). Time will tell if this ends up as vaporware :)

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22 minutes ago, Halfblind said:

Also, Windows 10 no longer supports the older platter HDDs anymore. You can only install it on any number of non-mechanical flash or SSDs.

That's not true at all. Even for Windows 11.

 

26 minutes ago, Azuris said:

Just curios, has someone an Example for a 16 Bit Program that can run on a modern Machine? 

You can still run DOS on a modern system, which is how that goes. Doing it in Windows requires a 32bit version, as they dropped support for the 16bit VDM in 64bit.

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33 minutes ago, Azuris said:

Just curios, has someone an Example for a 16 Bit Program that can run on a modern Machine? 

 

Modern x86 actually still boots into 16-bit mode natively.  The boot sequence of the OS is responsible for transitioning into one of the other modes, which is usually 64-bit mode, and once you're in a more modern mode generally you can't go back unless you reset the CPU.  So if you truly want to run 16-bit code on bare hardware, you have to boot into a 16-bit OS like DOS and stay there.

 

So how does DOSBox run 16-bit executables?  The same way NES emulators work - by emulating the hardware.  This is by far the better option for most people, because if you're emulating the CPU you're also generally emulating all of the 90's era peripherals that were designed to work with DOS - which you would otherwise have to buy off ebay or something equally silly.

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Oh no! Oh wait.. I haven’t even used a 32 bit OS in about eighteen years or so anyways. 

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I wonder whether this will affect WINE's support for 16-bit software at all. From the sounds of things, that shouldn't be an issue either?

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49 minutes ago, Edward850 said:

That's not true at all. Even for Windows 11.

In 2021 I was using a PC at a non-profit that had an HDD installed and it was running rather well. Microsoft released an update that year and afterwards the PC ran like trash. After that update Microsoft expects you to move away from using mechanical drives. After replacing the old drive with a newer SSD, the laptop ran as good as it did before the update. True that you can still run windows 10/11 on an old HDD but it will run like trash. I still have an old offline laptop that has an HDD that I keep running because it still has a DVD drive, and it is able to run windows 10. One of the reasons why it can't go online is because it still uses an old HDD and not a newer SSD.

 

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27 minutes ago, houston said:

I wonder whether this will affect WINE's support for 16-bit software at all. From the sounds of things, that shouldn't be an issue either?

Pretty sure that uses WineVDM so no.

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26 minutes ago, Halfblind said:

In 2021 I was using a PC at a non-profit that had an HDD installed and it was running rather well. Microsoft released an update that year and afterwards the PC ran like trash. After that update Microsoft expects you to move away from using mechanical drives. After replacing the old drive with a newer SSD, the laptop ran as good as it did before the update. True that you can still run windows 10/11 on an old HDD but it will run like trash. I still have an old offline laptop that has an HDD that I keep running because it still has a DVD drive, and it is able to run windows 10. One of the reasons why it can't go online is because it still uses an old HDD and not a newer SSD.

 

 

Windows 10 and 11 will often run like ass on mechanical drives yes, though I have seen it run OK on drives with minimal wear and tear. I tidied up a 10 year old barely used HP for someone recently still running it's original 1TB HDD and I would have almost sworn it had an SSD in it. Conversely, two of my customers made the mistake of purchasing the same HP all-in-one a couple of years ago which was still using a 1TB HDD and both ran like crap right out of the box. Not to mention being noisy as hell.

 

But your exact words were it's unsupported and you can't install it, which isn't true. It works, just usually not well.

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