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deathz0r

MyHouse split - debate about what's respectful in art about death, etc

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7 minutes ago, LukeJR said:

Let's just agree to disagree on anything. Why should we throw more fuel into the fire? What we can all say from the experience of rather watching videos based on myhouse.wad or experiencing it through actual gameplay. We all got something out of myhouse.wad and that is the real reward for experiencing it. My main concern is if myhouse.wad begins to get coverage on theories on YouTube or any media platform... because then I fear that the author will be attacked by those who fail to understand certain topics that are expressed in the story. I guess time will tell but I really hope we can all just get along going forwards on this topic.

The beauty about this project is that everyone has a different take on it. People are allowed to talk about it so long as they're not being assholes to each other.

 

And that ship has long sailed- youtubers with audiences in the millions (JackSepticEye, SomeOrdinaryGamers, penguinz0) have already played and loved this wad and it looks like audiences there were really respectful. But again, people digest art differently and everyone has a subjective take that may not be compatible with each other. We tend to argue a lot about said art, this is nothing new and definitely not the worst I've seen out of this community, heh. But I agree that we should all be respectful of each other and the author.

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I agree with others in the thread that the grieving process is clear and present throughout the game. I personally bawled at "Snugs", "I Do", and "Innocence Lost", and I refused point blank to shoot the best-buddy dog as though to do so would be to hurt myself. Reaching acceptance as the game's "good ending" couldn't be clearer.

 

I think it's one of the things that makes the game so emotionally arresting. Grief shared is grief eased. It's very positive, at least for me, to register and be reminded that others out there grieve like I do, and that I can ease someone else's grief, even if it's just by playing their game. If the game was merely a purely technical marvel, there's no way it would have gotten so much attention. What got people hooked on the game was the characters and the story.

 

What amplified that attention, I think, was the mysteriousness. The game's theme of processing grief is a theme of acceptance, which is a form of control; at least, controlling your own response to what is outside of your control, i.e., what you have lost, and are thus grieving for. People inherently lack control over what they don't know or don't understand. So to make a game about grief, and then make its narrative a little unclear and an understanding of it in totality just out of reach — that is a phenomenal, I-am-bowled-head-over-heels meta-commentary on the grieving process, but I am in no way surprised that it pushed so many players to try and know everything about the game. That's what grievers do. They seek control over the mystery of whatever is out of their grasp. They can't just skip to leaving it be, or there wouldn't be a grieving process. I'm not excusing anything. I'm just not surprised.

 

So, I'm in exactly the same boat. I don't need to know who Veddge is. But, in accordance with the coming-to-grips-with-things process of the game, I still haven't come to grips with how the dog / childhood / brutalism narratives interweave with the trans narrative. That mystery remains. And gosh darn it I'd like to know.

Edited by AlSmith : I gummed up a sentence.

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16 minutes ago, LukeJR said:

 My main concern is if myhouse.wad begins to get coverage on theories on YouTube or any media platform... because then I fear that the author will be attacked by those who fail to understand certain topics that are expressed in the story. I guess time will tell but I really hope we can all just get along going forwards on this topic.


My take on this point, it's instead on focus on a history or ending, like many of this youtubers try to do, put you on the shoes of the people who played this for first time, the wad feels really like a

authentic story because.

 

  • Don't show you the real stuff in the original post
  • The original autor only shared the post here, instead of other places like Youtube, Discord, Moddb, Others Dooms places, etc. And mind you, we know Doomworld it's popular but is not the place where all Gems come, and even then, the many famous .wads that are created here still use other media to gain popularity, like Eviternity.
  • The author don't reviewed their files or story after the discusions or theory of the fans (Like for example, if a theory on a terror game go popular, the creator may update the story to add context to that theory like it's was always there planed).
  • Don't exploit any real terror or cheap way to add the creppypasta.exe videos, it's just a plane experience with inspirations of places that make you feel out but real.
  • I really feel something playing this and without context of any of the spoilers or videos because i played it early.

Just  remeber to try to focus on what you feel and if connect with you. Is can be possible to you to feel nothing of the other world, or something to ask why give the popularity, but this was never about popularity, and it's something that i can respect.

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Look, this wad's quickly become overrated, it was cool, but not the craziest thing in the world.

 

That being said, you're mentally ill if you think my house.wad is actually disrespectful to the dead in any way, whether it's genuine or all made up (it's obviously made up). Unironically go touch grass. This is DOOM. There's no reason to try and shame someone over how they grieve for their friend (if there were any truth to it) or over incorporating grief into an artistic work especially where it's extremely tied to the thematics.

 

Fucking lol at you guys sometimes...

Edited by lunchlunch

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honestly i'm just kinda surprised that this tangent was sparked by deathz0r. don't think we've talked ... like, ever, but i always figured someone as around-the-block as him would be well-read enough to be familiar w/ stuff like framing devices that blur fiction and non, paying homage to a past trauma through use of a story that parallels it, and the literary use of the loss of a loved one as a metaphor for mourning a part of one's self ( esp. with regards to queer themes, especially trans ones )

 

like, it just feels like such a grade school level read if i'm being entirely honest. there's so many plausible ways to read a genuine expression from this work that dismissing it as someone pissing on graves just comes across as poor media literacy. it's not just the reductiveness towards the tools at play - there's a complete disregard towards those tools even existing to begin with

 

and, hell, i think what really baffles me is, like ... is there only supposed to be one way to make a tribute map? like, really, even if it was just "some creepypasta shit" ... do you not think crafting an elaborate and effective piece of horror makes for an incredible way to honor a loved one who was all over that kind of stuff? because a present i got last christmas was having to deal with the sudden death of one of the most important people in my life, and y'know what? i can promise you that she'd be over the moon if i created something like this in tribute to her. she would've absolutely love this thing, and the fact that i can't share it with her is just another loss caused by her departure

 

i 'unno. plenty of y'all have already spoken about how everyone has their own reaction to art, and that's true and all, but so is the fact that the sky is blue. there's just something fundamentally shortsighted about these reads of this work as deceptive, dishonest, and disrespectful, and it's hard to imagine it not leading to shit being stirred when future works come along that similarly toy with such basic assumptions about fiction

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I was going to stay silent until reading multiple comments that are saying deathz0r's reading is invalid or at the very least being seen as negative. They are entitled to their own opinion. Saying that you weren't expecting them to react this way is just unfair. You are not them, you have no right to tell them how they should feel. End of discussion.

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16 minutes ago, LukeJR said:

I was going to stay silent until reading multiple comments that are saying deathz0r's reading is invalid or at the very least being seen as negative. They are entitled to their own opinion. Saying that you weren't expecting them to react this way is just unfair. You are not them, you have no right to tell them how they should feel. End of discussion.

 

IMO the problem with deathz0r's post is that it's assuming ill intent on the author's part when he admitted in his first post he has no idea what the contents of the mod actually are and has barely read the thread. He hasn't engaged with this at all, he just jumped straight to "OP is a liar." At worst it reads like a deliberate attempt to start shit, mission accomplished I guess.

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10 minutes ago, The Final Event said:

This is the first time I've seen an upload of somebody remaking their house in Doom spark a large scale argument


This is more a 49 Pag. Discussion, with a little argument that people are dismissing.

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1 hour ago, Arctangent said:

like, it just feels like such a grade school level read if i'm being entirely honest. there's so many plausible ways to read a genuine expression from this work that dismissing it as someone pissing on graves just comes across as poor media literacy. it's not just the reductiveness towards the tools at play - there's a complete disregard towards those tools even existing to begin with

 

and, hell, i think what really baffles me is, like ... is there only supposed to be one way to make a tribute map? like, really, even if it was just "some creepypasta shit" ... do you not think crafting an elaborate and effective piece of horror makes for an incredible way to honor a loved one who was all over that kind of stuff? because a present i got last christmas was having to deal with the sudden death of one of the most important people in my life, and y'know what? i can promise you that she'd be over the moon if i created something like this in tribute to her. she would've absolutely love this thing, and the fact that i can't share it with her is just another loss caused by her departure

 

i 'unno. plenty of y'all have already spoken about how everyone has their own reaction to art, and that's true and all, but so is the fact that the sky is blue. there's just something fundamentally shortsighted about these reads of this work as deceptive, dishonest, and disrespectful, and it's hard to imagine it not leading to shit being stirred when future works come along that similarly toy with such basic assumptions about fiction

yes, in fact, there is. as defined by article 11, section ix in the doomworld code of mapping, it very clearly states that "[maps] that have been designed with the intent purpose of being a tribute to a lost loved one, typically used as a method of grieving by the author, must not only adhere to the guidelines laid out in Article 5, but also be straight-forward and clear in its goal as to appeal to the simplest of individuals. Failure to comply will result not only in immediate removal of said map, but also summary execution in the methods dictated by Article 13." please, before you go on spouting some nonsense about how people can do whatever they want, take the time to reread the rules. k?

 

fuckin lawbreakers...smh

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I think deathz0r gets the picture, guys. He committed wrongthink about the sacred cow was mistaken about the intent of the author(s) and the "legitimacy" of the story, use of death to give the wad mystique/appeal, etc. So while I think the first 6 or 7 posts telling him why he was wrong/why they disagreed were fine (more than enough, really), this is getting into absurd levels even for DogPileWorld Dot Com.

 

9 hours ago, Arctangent said:

honestly i'm just kinda surprised that this tangent was sparked by deathz0r. [..] like, it just feels like such a grade school level read if i'm being entirely honest.

However I am 0% surprised you ended a roughly 5 year posting abstinence just to dogpile on another user who's already been well and truly refuted once drama started popping off. Just typical, really.

 

10 hours ago, lunchlunch said:

you're mentally ill

How about looking in a mirror before using that line as a throwaway joke, dude.

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Last year, a friend of mine and a doomer died and I made this

 

Maybe there are other ways to make a tribute, but I didn't hide anything in the post. Thats because its a real thing. 

 

My house is fiction. Maybe is reflecting on real human experience, as art always does, but it is what it is. And should be obvious in the moment you play the map that the original post deceives you and play with your expectations (not anymore I guess). The fact this was posted like a real history is just to cash on the mistery and the urban legend appeal. 

 

And thats fine. 

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As a culture we are addicted to media puzzle boxes, and 'lore' and a lot of stuff we need in our narrative entertainment to stave off some real existential dread about how real life doesn't cohere and is not a storybook and there is no secret meaning to be found, in death, nor in life. 

A few notes on this thread:

1. when something becomes hugely popular in a small community it is often a point of identity-making for the contrarian to be elevated into a full-on hater, which they would not have done if the thing wasn't hugely popular. The new outgroup bands together to shit on popular thing because it has become too popular and disrupted other values that matter to the community, including that of 'low stakes anonymity'. The moment something explodes in popularity it casts a harsh, overbright light on a community that sometimes would prefer to be in the twilight. The classic 'I made this map to get a mention in PC Gamer' effect.

It is impossible to escape this effect and this is the price of success for map maker that wanted to transgress some boundaries. The map author should have no complaints that a society operates like a society. When they see a minority outgroup form against popular thing, they should know they have achieved some of their goals. There is no need to protect mapper from this, everything is going according to some plan. You don't need to protect or attack the piece of art anymore, it's done its thing and you won't put it back in the box. It's ok to have all sorts of emotions in relation to art, but it doesn't change the situation that you're having an emotion or that you asked your friend and they agree or disagree with your emotion. The art won't disappear because one is upset with it. 

2. Grief is not a puzzle box. If you've gone through grief you will know it is resistant to making meaning out of it, it is resistant to everything because death is more powerful than our explanations of life. In making a piece of art that behaves like a puzzle box but yet claims to be about the indelible qualities of grief, the map maker has shot themselves in the foot: by *succeeding* at making an attractive puzzle box [shaped like an absurd collectathon, of all things], they are inadvertently outlining that there is no 'solution to grief' offered when someone solves their puzzle box. This is a vacuous, sinking feeling to have as an aftertaste after playing, ostensibly, fun FPS shooter for an hour or two. The mapper can claim this is all by design, but when you criticize something by making it to the T, in the end your criticism is only secondary to that you made the exact thing you wanted to criticize to a T. Art doesn't work like that, but that's ok, we keep trying to be ironic and earnest at the same time and this keeps happening, lol 

3. Finishing a piece of art is really hard. The corpus of it is not hard, though it's hard to put together. Making a final statement in a piece of art dealing with very subtle themes is hard, and most people are not artists because they cannot pull off meaning. They give an impression of meaning, a space in which you can habitate and pretend there is meaning, but meaning, when it occurs is undeniable, it alters the human that comes in contact with it. The bittersweet melancholies of toying with grief are not this meaning.

From these three points, and the ride a person is taken on when they engage with what they now know the majority community considers 'a true work of art' we can understand now why people feel betrayed by the puzzle box essence of popular thing that made a promise about being more profound. There is no secret to death, and no amount of information about who passed and for what purpose would neatly close up the can of worms that is opened when an artist says 'this is a piece about real life grief'.
 

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6 hours ago, Doomkid said:

He committed wrongthink about the sacred cow

 

Wow, tell us how you really feel.

 

EDIT: I've already gone over why I think deathz0r would have been better off not posting at all (normally making assumptions and giving opinions when you don't actually know anything about the subject at hand - in this case, the contents of myhouse - is met with ridicule, but not this time I guess), but most of the posts in this threadsplit aren't even aimed directly at him so I don't think this is as much of a dogpile as you're making it out to be, but making out people's annoyance at what he said to be basically nothing more than "thou shalt not criticise myhouse" is.. lame frankly, and even though you've crossed it out, it seems clear to me that this what you actually think. Why include it at all otherwise?

 

Also I've had disagreements with Arctangent in the past but she made a lot of valid points here and you ignored all of that and went straight for an attack of "ofc you're joining the dogpile."
Honestly? I expect better from you, doubly so considering you're a moderator.

Edited by Tristan

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7 hours ago, Doomkid said:

However I am 0% surprised you ended a roughly 5 year posting abstinence just to dogpile on another user who's already been well and truly refuted once drama started popping off. Just typical, really.

 

yeah i guess it ain't really much of a surprise that something like myhouse would be the thing to drag me out of my doom pseudo-hiatus, nor that i would have a enough to say when it comes to literary devices ( esp. those relating to metanarratives ) to justify breaking my doomworld actual-hiatus, huh

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I am mixed on the wad myself but once people start saying "wrongthink" unironically that's when you know the conversation is about to take a drastic turn for the worse.

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I was promised a pile and I just got is this sad looking pit, better thread names please.

 

Anyway so the problem with this post is...
muppets-muppet-show.gif

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8 hours ago, Tristan said:

Honestly? I expect better from you, doubly so considering you're a moderator.

I was well within my rights to point out that the piling on deathz0r was unnecessary, I was well within my rights to call out another (known to be drama obsessed, back in the day) user for ending a 5 year posting hiatus simply to join in a drama pileup, and I was well within my rights to call out lunchlunch for throwing around messed up pejoratives for no good reason. Someone needed to drop an STFU bomb on the pileup, it's that simple. Both could users could have shared their opinions without being total dicks about it, both passed up that option.

 

Also the crossed out bit is a very obviously not to be taken so seriously, but let's be honest here, the joke lands because it's a reference to the fact that every minor perceived slight against MyHouse is met with backlash. When Snax made the slightest suggestion that it was a walking simulator, there was like a dozen people blown away that she could be so dismissive towards the greatest thing evar. While I ultimately don't agree with the point deathz0r made, every post after cannonball's on the subject was an exercise in self-fart-huffing, and lunch's and Arc tangent's were absolutely rude enough to warrant the clapback, in addition to just being obvious cases of beating a dead horse. A bad moderator sees that going on and says/does nothing, FYI.

 

So yeah, this is ridiculous. If you're waiting for me to not stop pileups once they go on for too long or not call out users for saying/doing things that strike me as pretty fucking crappy things to do, you're gonna be waiting a while.

 

(I didn't lock this by the way but I'll leave it locked out of respect for the other mods, but there's no way I'm letting yet another "I expected better of you" type post to go unresponded to when I'm just doing my gad dahm jarb, heh.)

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