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Croaker

What are the reasons to play other ports except GZDOOM?

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Just now, Jack9955 said:

 

Odamex very rarely has players when I check, which server do you join?

 

This is unfortunately a common complaint, but no one wants to be the first one in the server! There are some events that happen weekly, such as the Monday Night Horde event that happens at 8pm EST, people tend to congregate around that, for example. I routinely see players jump in any multiplayer server for either snap gatherings in their communities or even just to wait for someone to join. Jump in a game and you might find that people will join you!

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Just now, Jack9955 said:

 

Odamex very rarely has players when I check, which server do you join?

I tend to play with private servers or just choose a dead server to play on after arranging a game with friends. So I would suggest finding a Doom MP discord or something and arrange games that way. Zandronum has far more players but a lot of the servers can be shit or are using outdated versions of Zandronum. 

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I think that most people and or mappers that chose different ports is specific to the map they plan on making, at least in a lot of a cases.

~ and a good chunk of the community are mappers.

 

Edit:

Even though the above makes since, almost.. I was somewhat drunk when I typed that last night.. :P

Either way, even Romero decided to use GZ for map making recently, from what I recall. 

 

Edited by Mr.Rocket

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8 minutes ago, Jack9955 said:

Odamex very rarely has players when I check, which server do you join?

 

Our discord would be a good place to start: https://discord.gg/aMUzcZE

 

We have highlight groups set up so you can ping people for a game, and every Monday we also run a weekly session on our Horde gamemode.  And for what it's worth, I'm actually unsure if it's possible to implement Horde in GZDoom - at least not in the mod-friendly way we did it, with a custom HORDEDEF lump and everything.

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52 minutes ago, banjiepixel said:

I might be a special case but GZDoom settings menus do give me heavy anxiety and make me worry about changing something by accident without noticing

 

Which is perfectly valid, fam. I don't blame anyone for glancing at GZ's settings menu and their brain going, "Oh fuck no!" as its displayed in a rather daunting fashion. However, if you have good reading comprehension and understand how the user file works, you'd only need to spend the time to get the settings you desire once, save a backup copy of the user/ini file and you'll virtually never have to worry about touching them again.

 

34 minutes ago, roadworx said:

tbf, i've had to change computers several times over the years, so changing the many, many settings of gzdoom gets rather annoying. my experience is still an edge case, of course :p

 

This is why it's a good idea to keep a backup of the user/ini file on an external drive of some kind, Roadie. ;^P

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25 minutes ago, Scuba Steve said:

Eternity:

  • Pro: Besides GZDoom, Eternity is probably the most advanced port with the capability of creating advanced portals and the ability to script new enemies and weapons. Maintains full compatibility with vanilla Doom and can play every map without fail (the go-to Batman Doom port)
  • Con: Because of the commitment to demo compatibility, Eternity has taken a long time to become feature-rich. As a result, it hasn't cultivated a large base of users who produce Eternity-only maps and mods. Heartland was the first and really only magnum opus thus far made for this port. Mordeth e2 doesn't count because it does not and will never exist.

rip, didn't even include woof. you should be ashamed of yourself for leaving out the best port ):<

 

anyways, eternity isn't gonna be like that forever. i've talked with someone who has a really interesting idea of what could be done with eternity, though i'd rather not get into specifics

Edited by roadworx

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Sure... but it's a chicken and egg dilemma; nobody made Eternity maps so there were no Eternity maps so nobody made Eternity maps. At the time, I heralded Heartland as the first "must-play" exclusive Eternity project and hoped it would lead to the beginning of an Eternity renaissance. I really want to see it happen.

 

Woof:

  • Pro: Good doggies are good doggies.
  • Con: Bad doggies are bad doggies.

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11 hours ago, Croaker said:


1. Purism. Some people just want to play DOOM as it was intended back at the 90x

One of the main reason why I still play Doom 1 & 2 in DosBox. I just love it that way!

 

Another reason why I use other ports such as PrBoom-plus is that I like the freely movement setup on those ports, which for some reason I never find it very good in GZDoom/ZDoom honestly. For me, I think I find GZDoom best for playing some maps with my most favourite mod Brutal Doom, or any other cool mod I like because of its cool lighting feature (which I do really like).

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"I play Doom in DOSBox the way it was meant to be."

"...most favorite mod, Brutal Doom."

 

Suffering from whiplash here...

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GZDoom not having a rewind button and other QoL features you get in dsda-doom is a deal breaker and the overal experience in dsda is crisper and faster, gonna test drive crispy doom and doom retro real soon

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43 minutes ago, Stroggman said:

GZDoom not having a rewind button and other QoL features you get in dsda-doom is a deal breaker and the overal experience in dsda is crisper and faster, gonna test drive crispy doom and doom retro real soon

Try Woof! too

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13 minutes ago, PhoxFyre007 said:

Try Woof! too

Yeah that's right I will definitely try Woof, thanks

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7 hours ago, DRON12261 said:

To be honest, normal default settings and the ability to force Sector light mode would already be enough that I could calmly go back to mapping under GZDoom (and not only me).

 

I am not an expert, but I think this might be already possible. I think I read that MyHouse forces a certain sector light mode. And regarding normal default settings, you only need to set them once and then just use that configured ini file whenever you update GZ.

 

6 hours ago, segfault said:

Honest question: Are there any actual GPUs or APUs today that support Vulkan but not OpenGL? It occurs to me that a tradeoff was made where actual, real living users under thrown under the bus in favor of a hypothetical user in the future that is "stuck" with high-end hardware and no compatibility layer.

 

 

What graphical features is GZDoom gaining by adopting Vulkan and leaving OpenGL 2 behind? It's not like GZDoom is capable of doing any sort of graphics technique that's been invented in the past 10 years. (To be clear, this in and of itself is not a strike against GZDoom.) The most graphically demanding GZDoom mods and TCs don't look anything different from what was possible in the late 2000s.

 

While modern GPUs do support OpenGL, the performance may or may not be unsatisfactory when compared to Vulkan. Especially if you have a low-end AMD GPU.

 

Also, there is stuff like Total Chaos and Selaco, that I am pretty sure wouldn't have been possible in the late 00s.

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7 hours ago, segfault said:

 

Honest question: Are there any actual GPUs or APUs today that support Vulkan but not OpenGL? It occurs to me that a tradeoff was made where actual, real living users under thrown under the bus in favor of a hypothetical user in the future that is "stuck" with high-end hardware and no compatibility layer.


I guess your question has gotten answered already by this:

 

7 hours ago, LuciferSam86 said:

Especially with the newer drivers. Graf said he noticed with his new RTX 3060 worse performance with OpenGL than Vulkan.

https://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?p=1241509#p1241509

 

And this exactly highlights the reason why software is migrating off OpenGL. It is an old API made for an entirely different kind of graphics hardware. It doesn't interact well with current hardware and in fact causes performance loss there and these problems are only going to get worse with each new hardware generation and eventually be relegated to a wrapper around a more modern API.

 

As I was curious about it, I did run some tests with Mesa's GL -> Vulkan wrapper, and saying that the performance on GZDoom with larger maps was disappointing would be an understatement. It would be fine to run vintage games with no upgrades and it would also be fine for running these professional apps if you are fine with performance metrics from the last decade, but that'd be it.


 

7 hours ago, segfault said:

 

What graphical features is GZDoom gaining by adopting Vulkan and leaving OpenGL 2 behind? It's not like GZDoom is capable of doing any sort of graphics technique that's been invented in the past 10 years. (To be clear, this in and of itself is not a strike against GZDoom.) The most graphically demanding GZDoom mods and TCs don't look anything different from what was possible in the late 2000s.

 

 

The biggest thing right now that comes to mind would be raytracing, but there will surely be other things in the coming years that will see support for Vulkan/Direct3D and not for OpenGL.

 

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12 hours ago, ETTiNGRiNDER said:

I do find it a bit unfortunate that the only accurate options for Heretic/Hexen are vanilla or plus, though.  (No, not even Chocolate & derivatives.  It may be fine and dandy for Doom but I keep finding edge cases that break in H+H and the devs don't seem in any hurry to fix them; as always they seem to be second-class citizens in the world of Doom ports).

 

this has always puzzled me a bit: there is no vanilla-accurate modern windows/linux port for Heretic and Hexen? 

is this really still the case, even with recent efforts by crispy/inter/dsda?  

 

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7 hours ago, roadworx said:

tbf, i've had to change computers several times over the years, so changing the many, many settings of gzdoom gets rather annoying. my experience is still an edge case, of course :p

 

If you change computers often you can use a "GZDoom_portable" file and your settings will always be retained.

 

Personally, i would also like an option to make this read-only. If you do, GZDoom will give you an error when you close it, but i would like to be able to experiment with all those settings without worrying about reverting them to my personal defaults or forgetting one setting here and there. Right now i have the cfg file backed up and replace it every time i do this, which isn't the most convenient.

 

Anyway, so far my favorite ports are GZDoom and Woof. The most important reason being that both work great with a gamepad with dual analog controls. These days i use my PC in a couch play setup, i'm done with being shackled in a static (bad) posture on my desk, using my whole upper body just to play with KB/Mouse. So, these two ports are very couch friendly. I haven't tried every single port that exists but i did try some. Chocolate and PRBoom can't work with this setup and DSDA works great but you still have to press "Y" on the keyboard to exit. Eternity has that annoying console window and the "Thanks for using the Eternity engine" window that can only be closed with the mouse.

Edited by TasAcri

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While we're on the subject of sourceports, I'd like to highlight Nugget Doom. It is a fork of Woof with goodies! And lately it has become my favorite.
 

 

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5 hours ago, Scuba Steve said:

Eternity:

  • Pro: Besides GZDoom, Eternity is probably the most advanced port with the capability of creating advanced portals and the ability to script new enemies and weapons. Maintains full compatibility with vanilla Doom and can play every map without fail (the go-to Batman Doom port)
  • Con: Because of the commitment to demo compatibility, Eternity has taken a long time to become feature-rich. As a result, it hasn't cultivated a large base of users who produce Eternity-only maps and mods. Heartland was the first and really only magnum opus thus far made for this port. Mordeth e2 doesn't count because it does not and will never exist.

 

Another Con: The frame rare is not as smooth as in other engines. I have a 240hz monitor and Woof/GZDoom/DSDA can use those 240frames and run very smoothly. Eternity feels like there's a hidden cap or something or can't sync properly or use freesync. It just feels like it judders slightly, despite having the "uncapped frame rate" and "interpolation" ON in the settings.

 

Also, the console windows i mentioned above. I always dislike console windows and this engine throws two at you :D (though i'm not sure if there's a way to disable them completely).

Edited by TasAcri

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For me the

17 minutes ago, TasAcri said:

 

Another Con: The frame rare is not as smooth as in other engines. I have a 240hz monitor and Woof/GZDoom/DSDA can use those 240frames and run very smoothly. Eternity feels like there's a hidden cap or something or can't sync properly or use freesync. It just feels like it judders slightly, despite having the "uncapped frame rate" and "interpolation" ON in the settings.

 

Also, the console windows i mentioned above. I always dislike console windows and this engine throws two at you :D (though i'm not sure if there's a way to disable them completely).

For me, at least in GZdoom, the framerate not smooth was a bug into the Nvidia drivers. Once updated and set in vulkan I had a smooth experience again. Before the fix, put multiple of 35 fps for max fps helped a lot. 

 

Oh and I disabled the vsync into the Nvidia control panel, Doom64 EX plus had the same problem. 

Edited by LuciferSam86

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7 hours ago, liPillON said:

this has always puzzled me a bit: there is no vanilla-accurate modern windows/linux port for Heretic and Hexen? 

is this really still the case, even with recent efforts by crispy/inter/dsda? 

Well, I did say edge cases and to be fair, the Chocolate family is probably "accurate enough" for IWAD play to be correct but I don't trust them for mod accuracy, which last I checked, was something they do care about at least for Doom given the emulation of bugs that primarily affect PWADs.

 

Here's a Hexen bug I posted 5 years ago that's still open, and makes at least two and probably more extant Hexen PWADs unplayable.  It's probably less of an issue with anything new being made because someone will probably tell the author "hey don't do that" before a final release, but isn't being able to play old WADs accurately a big part of the point of those ports?

https://github.com/chocolate-doom/chocolate-doom/issues/1059

 

And then there's this Heretic one more recently, which is admittedly more theoretical since as far as I know, none of the extant HHE mods try to do this (I ended up changing mine rather than wait for this to be fixed), but it is a sign of the HHE support being less than stellar and potentially a ticking time bomb for when someone goes and makes an HHE patch that they think works one way but actually has inconsistencies between vanilla/Chocolate (I think this already happened with map renaming, actually!).  Some blame probably lies on Greg Lewis for leaving HHE rather unfinished (it only correctly supports Heretic v1.0, there are some annoyances in getting it to do things with later versions), but suffice to say there's not a lot of research into how it works and I think the Chocolate devs pretty much strapped it onto the DEH support and called it a day which is... not great since it doesn't always work the same way as DeHackEd (string redefinitions are file-offset-based rather than search-and-replace-based, which is the core problem for this one).

https://github.com/chocolate-doom/chocolate-doom/issues/1567

 

AFAIK Crispy pulls directly from the Chocolate codebase and the dev explicitly didn't care about supporting Heretic and Hexen, unless that's changed since then.  So any inaccuracies can be expected to be inherited there.  I haven't checked DSDA-Doom as I assumed it was just another PrBoom iteration that only had Doom(2) support, so I can't comment there at the moment, but if it's drawing off of the Chocolate codebase, then same problems most likely.

 

As it stands, I'll check any Heretic/Hexen mods I make for vanilla/plus in actual vanilla/plus to be sure and suggest others should probably do the same; who knows what other situations haven't been tested.

Edited by ETTiNGRiNDER

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While part of this has already been answered let'e elaborate a bit from a developer's perspective:

 

17 hours ago, segfault said:

 

Honest question: Are there any actual GPUs or APUs today that support Vulkan but not OpenGL? It occurs to me that a tradeoff was made where actual, real living users under thrown under the bus in favor of a hypothetical user in the future that is "stuck" with high-end hardware and no compatibility layer.

 

Like the post I made over at the ZDoom forum already hints at, with modern hardware there can be a significant difference in performance, even with a Vulkan renderer just emulating OpenGL's state machine.

This is precisely where GZDoom is right now, the entire code is geared towards OpenGL's setup and does not really take any advantage whatsoever of Vulkan's stengths.

Surely we could continue on this path for a long time but what would be the benefit? The only ones profiting from it would be users of really old and outdated hardware that'd be better served by a leaner port with less features as these systems often cannot run the demanding maps anyway.

 

It's also an ever diminishing return on investment as this user group will steadily shrink. On top of that our surveys have shown quite clearly that the users of high end graphics hardware are far, far quicker to upgrade than the users of low end hardware. All this has caused the strange situation that we currently have 90% of users on Vulkan capable hardware, 1% of upper range pre-Vulkan hardware and 9% on really weak pre-Vulkan integrated GPUs. Those latter 9% are best served by the GLES backend, and should we go forward with making the engine more Vulkan friendly, splitting this off into a low maintenance LZDoom successor would be the best course of action because trying to keep everything under one umbrella would be a disservice to the users of what constitutes a modern setup and forfeit future proofing the engine for upcoming hardware changes. The regular fully featured OpenGL backend's days are numbered, though, I do not see this survive for another year due to the extremely low user base that can benefit from it.

 

 

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Every port looks and feels different, so it usually boils down to preference. Some also have specific features that are useful for different purposes.

 

Some source ports are true to vanilla gameplay and can be used for speedrunning and recording demo files (which is a vital part of verifying the truthfulness of a run), some like PRBOOM+ are both very lightweight and limit-removing which is great if you're going to play WADs like Nuts that contain excessive amounts of enemies. Some, like DOOM Retro or Crispy DOOM, offer a retro-looking experience with some enhancements regarding framerate, aspect ratio, visual effects, etc.

 

GZDOOM also doesn't support online multiplayer ; while Zandronum, ZDaemon and Odamex all do. Besides a good chunk of GZDOOM mods also works on Zandronum so it definitely has that going for it.

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This could be something on my end, but I do find Vulkan slightly more unstable overall. MyHouse for instance has crashed a couple times on startup, something that never happens with OpenGL. Performance is far better under Vulkan though.

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16 hours ago, Scuba Steve said:

Woof:

 

  • Pro: Good doggies are good doggies.
  • Con: Bad doggies are bad doggies.

Woof:

  • Pro: has a similar look and features et to Crispy-Doom but can play Boom and MBF wads, the best preforming software render out of any source port next to Crispy and Chocolate Doom (because it's technically hardware accelerated), and has a number of QoL options tailored for the casual player like the ability to fix the blockmap on complevels above MBF and upscaling the spritefuzz affect
  • Cons: hardcapped to 400p, DSDA-Doom overshadows it

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8 minutes ago, No-Man Baugh said:

Woof:

  • Pro: has a similar look and features et to Crispy-Doom but can play Boom and MBF wads, the best preforming software render out of any source port next to Crispy and Chocolate Doom (because it's technically hardware accelerated), and has a number of QoL options tailored for the casual player like the ability to fix the blockmap on complevels above MBF and upscaling the spritefuzz affect
  • Cons: hardcapped to 400p, DSDA-Doom overshadows it

Only the Renderer itself is 400p, the actual resolution scales to window size or full screen. I don't see too much if an issue of a 400p renderer myself.

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4 minutes ago, PhoxFyre007 said:

Only the Renderer itself is 400p, the actual resolution scales to window size or full screen. I don't see too much if an issue of a 400p renderer myself.

Indeed the true resolution scales with your monitor's size, but the end result is a chunky 400 and I can see that being a deal breaker for people who want hi-rez dooming no matter what (which it ain't for me, to be clear)

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Just now, No-Man Baugh said:

Indeed the true resolution scales with your monitor's size, but the end result is a chunky 400 and I can see that being a deal breaker for people who want hi-rez dooming no matter what (which it ain't for me, to be clear)

Ah I gotcha. It utilizes the same 400p as MBF and Crispy. But yeah, I can see that. I wish more ports had window resolution and renderer resolution separate like Eternity Engine.

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