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Darkcrafter07

Another ridiculous post about the future of Doom

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And I want 16 times the detail in my Doom viddy gaem just to fuel this thread with gasoline and shit.

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Judging by the length of some of these replies, this was a successful troll. Kudos, can't wait to see more from you!

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Well, since the premise of the OP is that the Doom engine is very limited and it's better to switch to Quake, I'm going to say that the Quake engine is very limited. Better to move the Doom scene to Unreal 5, there you can do everything, with 3D models and RTX and those things that kids like nowadays.

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10 hours ago, mrthejoshmon said:

if I join do I also get the cool black trench coat and red armband or is that party members only?

4chan has HEAPS of those things in the $1.50 chuckout bin, if you dig hard enough you'll find MP40s, MG42s as well as the occasional king tiger 2 heavy battle tank if you're REALLY lucky 8^)

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7 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

I do too but having all geometry looking 90 degrees straight is boring. Duke Nukem 3D made some slopes possible and Quake finally allowed for even more freedom, look at E1M2 ending area, the rock texture isn't "chopped off" in a straight fashion at the top, the designers tried to make it look more "sawwy".

 

Obviously everything I said went straight over your head. You find it boring. Most Doom fans do not. That's why they are Doom fans. They like how the game looks and feels as is. I really do not understand why you are having trouble comprehending this really quite basic and obvious concept. 

7 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

But how do you know if you need it by not trying

 

This is genuinely one of the stupidest things I have ever read. I know I don't need it, because I know what I like. I have zero interest in playing another game wearing a Doom skin. It won't play like Doom. It won't feel like Doom. Doom 2016 worked (and to a lesser extent Doom 3) for me because they redesigned everything. They didn't try and just jam in the classic looks on a modern engine. It has never worked for me, and never will.

 

7 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

Having room over room without relying on portals and 3D floors. Start the editor, draw your sectors in a "Doom" mode, stack them up against each other in 3D space like a bunch of 3D models, put triggers in Quake mode. The map compiler will provide correct and consistent lighting across them all. I don't know actually what it costs to develop such an editor but pretty much, generating Quake brushes out of 3D floors must be even easier than converting regular Doom geometry.

 

Your answer is completely unrelated to your point, and does not address the point I raised - that accurately converting Doom's true 3D tricks like portals into actual 3D geometry would be seriously difficult.

 

7 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

I'm a really tough guy to deal with

 

OK so learn from this feedback - don't fucking blunder on into a place filled with fans of something and say "Thing you like must die". That attitude sucks, and it will never go down well or endear you to anybody, ever. The fact that you need to be told this frankly baffles me. It is not like it is difficult to figure out.

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6 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

No, not in 4K, I mean, run the original exe on DOS, with a modern CPU, it will bottleneck.

Because its DOS. You are literally running an old OS on a processor that is way way too fast for said OS that it actually needs a slowdown utility.

 

If you want DOS but rewritten for the modern ages so you can do your 4K dos games on that CPU, have fun with that.

6 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

Thank you for paying attention to my posts, really. I'm a really tough guy to deal with, not something I'm proud of.

Then why are you making such a ridiculous premise? The entirety of your argument, as incoherent as it is, comes down to I want Doom. But i want it in Quake. And i want Doom's mapping tools also in Quake. To which the most logical answer is Vavoom or K8Vavoom, and you know this already.

6 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

I don't mean killing Doom right now, no, instead I'd want to see something that would become so good that it could be on par with Vanilla.

That's called a source port.

6 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

I know about K8Vavoom, the last time I tried to feed it a map from Hell Renaissance it went out to be working much slower than in GZDoom, but that's an offtop. It's a good idea for me now to test run an old DOS version of Vavoom and maybe even compare its speed against Quake YPOD on Doom 2 Map01, they're both present here and there.

If you run K8 on your old PC it won't run fast. Its a modern port, whereas Vavoom still can run on DOS. So i guess that's your option there.

6 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

I know about ZDray to for years but thanks, the last time I asked about it, it didn't process 3D models? It was a long while ago on zdoom forums.

It will be integrated as a BSP builder with additional light bake step, either through CPU or accelerated.

 

36 minutes ago, RataUnderground said:

Well, since the premise of the OP is that the Doom engine is very limited and it's better to switch to Quake, I'm going to say that the Quake engine is very limited. Better to move the Doom scene to Unreal 5, there you can do everything, with 3D models and RTX and those things that kids like nowadays.

I think UE5 is limited. I prefer Renderman so that my models are actually photorealistic.

 

Maybe Doom should be converted to that. I don't understand why nobody has done this. The pro's are obvious, like hello.

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"The Doom Code and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race" by Darkcrafter07

 

A manifesto for the ages

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1 hour ago, No-Man Baugh said:

This is just a parody of kgsws' proposed new mapping standard, isn't it?

Yeah I knew this was a troll from the start hence why I didn't participate but now that you mention it I think you're right. I agree that we don't really need a new mapping standard but we really don't need passive aggressive posts like this making fun of other members if that's what this is.

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17 minutes ago, Individualised said:

Wouldn't those be sine waves?

 

13 minutes ago, Individualised said:

Yeah I knew this was a troll from the start hence why I didn't participate but now that you mention it I think you're right. I agree that we don't really need a new mapping standard but we really don't need passive aggressive posts like this making fun of other members if that's what this is.

I made that post just after reading the post, but after reading some of Darkcrafters's replies I am kinda starting to believe that they're being serious (either that or they're playing into the bit way too hard)
 

But no matter how you read it: they're kinda sweeping alot of the community's work under the rug, specifically programmers who spent alot of their free time and experience to help a game they like get that much better

 

As a side note: I actually really like the idea of a new mapping format, if only for it's own sake, and I'm exited to see what comes of it if kgsws gets some support (albiet not quite as exited as the full release of the ACE Engine). but I still don't quite under what exactly he wants out of the format even after going thru all 3 pages of it

Edited by No-Man Baugh

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4 hours ago, Meowgi said:

Judging by the length of some of these replies, this was a successful troll. Kudos, can't wait to see more from you!

i honestly hope op is being completely serious, because that would make it so much funnier

 

6 hours ago, Kinsie said:

Vanilla is dead. Pretty much everything focused on vanilla gameplay these days is limit-removing at minimum. Hardcore purebred DOS executable vanilla is only really practiced by Essel and her cohorts these days, and even then mostly in the name of mad angry science.

):<

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3 hours ago, No-Man Baugh said:

This is just a parody of kgsws' proposed new mapping standard, isn't it?

Yeah, my immediate response was to take this as a parody post and to squint at the replies taking it seriously wondering if they missed the joke, or are in on it.

 

That, or it's some hardcore Poe's Law going on.

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@No-Man Baughevery sound can be described as multiple sine ways each having different frequency (pitch) and volume (amplitude) and if you add phasing information, then it will be restored almost as sharp as it used to before conversion, ad time? 

Spoiler

Adobe Audition 3 - bmp export

 

Seems like I don't want to repeat, it was a serious post. Maybe I want an impossible thing: Doom ported to Quake, having the same depth of volume in the maps and being edited as easy as in Doom Builder, then stacked together in the Quake mode, while simulating Doom lighting style (Vavoom, XashDoom do it) and mixing it up with lightmap results.

 

Laugh if you want now.

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21 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

1. Vanilla must die. Seriously, this engine was experimental even at the day of release and you can see it by reading some John Carmack dev logs how he would want to make it render right (sprites clipping), the original capabilities of the engine don't scale up to today needs.

 

Lost me here, honestly. Vanilla DOOM mapping is one of the pursuit's purest forms, truly the epitome of the mantra "limitations inspire creativity" -- if I wanted to make FPS levels that really had no limits, I'd be doing anything but mapping for idTech 1.

 

Notwithstanding, as a player I love vanilla episodes and megaWADs -- the limitations mean less cluttered sector-soup detailing, smaller levels that don't fall into the 'magnum opus map' trap (to a degree -- exceptions exist where the author has completely disregarded the savegame buffer overflow), and a guarantee that I'll be able to play the map on one of the more-faithful source ports to preserve the very same gameplay that I've been fond of since the '90s.

 

This and the rest of your posts basically amount to "GET BETTER TECH LOL" and, honestly, that's not why the majority of people are here.

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6 hours ago, Meowgi said:

Judging by the length of some of these replies, this was a successful troll. Kudos, can't wait to see more from you!

Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by a goddamned ideas guy.

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1 hour ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

having the same depth of volume in the maps and being edited as easy as in Doom Builder, then stacked together in the Quake mode, while simulating Doom lighting style (Vavoom, XashDoom do it)

 

this is what we call "sector portals"

 

they're available in eternity and gzdoom and are as simple as finding the line where the two areas line up

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8 hours ago, Kinsie said:

Vanilla is dead. Pretty much everything focused on vanilla gameplay these days is limit-removing at minimum. Hardcore purebred DOS executable vanilla is only really practiced by Essel and her cohorts these days, and even then mostly in the name of mad angry science.

Actually it's one of the most popular map formats these days. If people play with Chocolate or other port is another story.

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23 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

1. Vanilla must die. Seriously, this engine was experimental even at the day of release and you can see it by reading some John Carmack dev logs how he would want to make it render right (sprites clipping), the original capabilities of the engine don't scale up to today needs.

 

I agree, idtech4 is way better than the vanilla Doom engine. Even the number is bigger!! 

23 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

2. Quake derived ports are the way to go. Quake runs hundred times faster than Doom on faster systems, yes, if you run Doom on a modern CPU, on DOS, you will still be bound to 100FPS in 320x200 while Quake would give you thousands;

Idtech4 is still derived from the source code of quake 1 AND it works at 120fps with only the chaingun breaking! Take that uncited source that says quake runs at 100fps in that specific resolution.

23 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

3. Vanilla lighting can be simulated with Quake lightmaps entirely, more than that you'll get nice shadows and a possibility to make it render beatiful looks on modern systems (hello RTX ON, not Pr-Boom RTX BS);

Did somebody say nice shadows and lighting? Carmack's stencil shadowing is the way to go. Just ask for RTX mod and uncompressed 4k textures to @Arl or Xyzz in the idtech4 server, I am very sure you will not get death threats from the members!

23 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

4. Vanilla monsters can be made into other engines, more than that, they can be made better if done with more talent and dedication. Wait, there was a total conversion for Quake of such kind called "Your Path Of Destruction" (YPOD) made in 1997 and abandoned because it sucked and required much more development (that's not free.)

Quake total conversion in Doom engine? You mean Quake 4? Idtech 4 got you covered as always. 

23 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

5. YPOD was made by a group of low motivated students? Doom maps show all the flaws that Quake movement code doesn't fit Doom; Progs.dat were also coded insufficiently well and simply rushed, there was no Doom style lighting.

 

I'm not high iq enough to understand your point, I haven't watched rick and morty, but I am sure Doom 3 has movement code as well.

23 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

6. We need YPOD2 done right. Yes, it's about having to suit Quake engine to Doom needs. Call it somehow, like Qwadoom, brainstorm please!

 

DOOM IN A QUAKE ENGINE WAS DONE LONG AGO IT'S JUST DOOM3/QUAKE 4. It should have been called qoom tho :(

23 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

7. We need a better Quake map editor that Doom mappers can use easily. Imagine having a Doom Builer made in such a fashion that it converts UDMF GZDoom and Eternity maps with portals and stacked sectors into a Quake brush-work maps. There are some source codes for tools like Doom2Quake that already provide a good basis for that. Having a mode to work with Doom maps in a layered fashion, it's like Eternity portals but real 3D without a need to separate geometry.

"Qwadoom Builder by "QDQ inc.". Ultimate Doom Builder with advanced "Quake" mode called "oh no, it's Quake".

Shitposting and trolling aside, I LOVE the Idtech4 editor, it's so easy to use braindead people like me can write 3 pages of text while only looking at it and still not get bored, check my guide. It's better than hammer and better than any other builder out there. Fight me.

23 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

8. Having light to bake up on static non-map 3d models geometry as well as regular geometry, like it's done in source engine. That would increase performance on dinosaur computers.

Again, you say lighting I say idtech 4.

VERDICT: STOP PLAYING DOOM VANILLA. STOP PLAYING QUAKE. YOU NEED IDTECH4 IN YOUR LIFE AS YOUR SAVIOUR it literally covers all your points.

But nice trolling though :)

 

Edited by BonciuADV

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This is just a post of very bad takes held together by the excuse of "it's just me having some fun". I know people who get off on having terrible takes, and they are insufferable. 

 

23 hours ago, Darkcrafter07 said:

1. Vanilla must die. Seriously, this engine was experimental even at the day of release and you can see it by reading some John Carmack dev logs how he would want to make it render right (sprites clipping), the original capabilities of the engine don't scale up to today needs.

This is just... wow. Just... shut the fuck up dude. The day vanilla dies is the day the community is truly dead. People like to map in vanilla because it provides a sense of challenge and authenticity to mapping. And given Doom's rich history in modding, I don't think that's going away any time soon, thankfully.

 

I don't know if you do this shit for attention, but if you know what's good for you, you should probably think before posting. I know that seems to be a problem for a lot of Doomworld newbies for some reason, but it really shouldn't be that hard to think "what am I realistically going to get out of this post?"

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Doom community: exists and has fun doing what it does.
The post about the "future of Doom":

image.png.fd572ed9e1eed48655f46a4be6f99bc9.png

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Don't want to get negative here, though I understand why some are. While I do believe that DOOM is still great to play even to this day, it would be absolutely awesome to see some Quake derived ports (can mean both 1. DOOM converted to the Quake engine, basically swapping pieces to give an accurate DOOM feel but with many features from Quake, or 2. more Quake source ports that allow many cool effects and stuff).

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18 minutes ago, YeOldeFellerNoob said:

it would be absolutely awesome to see some Quake derived ports

 

Mixing Doom and Quake is well traveled ground - ZDoom's interface is largely copied from Quake 2's.  If you want something a bit more than surface level, you would likely need to rewrite Doom's entire gameloop.  Doom is very much not friendly to client/server networked persistence, and is very prone to butterfly-effect mispredictions due to the enormous amount of shared state and unpredictability of its gameplay logic.

 

Not to mention that due to the constraints of early 3D and running so much of the game out of the network protocol and console subsystem, in many ways Quake is a strictly inferior and less flexible engine than Doom.  Also keep in mind that Quake is more than 27 years old.  The engine was a marvel for its time, but game engines developed since then have surpassed it in many ways, so if you're going to be rewriting Doom from first principles anyway, there are many better places that you can draw inspiration from.

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