Even if you don't make content, you are still a valued member of this community: a brief diatribe

[Cammy]

Part of me feels a grand essay is warranted which uses the title of this thread as its thesis statement, but I think brevity will make the point stronger. To all you Doom players and forum crawlers out there who have never cracked open Doom Builder, never drawn a single texture or composed a single midi, who are just here to ride the rollercoasters we've built - you're an essential part of the Doom community. And that's true even if you're not drafting up write-ups and reviews of everything you play - even if you're not uploading practiced runs to the web. Even if you're reading this without an account on this forum.

 

Anyone reading this can make a map, a script, a song, a sprite, or anything else if they just bite the bullet and do it - but you're not a freeloader if you don't. Hanging around a community which pumps out as much content as this one makes it easy to fall into the mental pitfall of "I've been around for so long and I still haven't given back to the community with content of my own yet. I'm obligated to fix that!"

 

If you want to, you should try! Trying new things and learning new skills helps our brains stay limber and healthy. But even if you never do take that step, you're fulfilling a crucial role here just by playing our stuff.

 

I don't know exactly how anyone but myself gets fulfillment out of their work, but I do know this: as fun as the creative process can be on its own, the real magic happens when other people experience what you have created. We make levels so people can play; we write music so people can listen. In being a player, or a listener, or anything else, you're fulfilling the purpose of what we have made, even if we don't ever see that for ourselves. I've been involved with sheltered communities and projects in the past whose outputs were only ever actually seen by the creators themselves - but as fun as that can be with the right people, it can't even scratch the feeling of releasing content in a community like this, whose ties run so deep and whose reach extends so far, and knowing that someone I don't know and may never talk to will experience (and hopefully even enjoy) something that I've put a piece of myself into.

 

Maybe that's a little bit idealistic of me to say, but I know there's something in there. Bottom line is that if you're here to create, we're here to accept it. But don't let that convince you it's not okay to just sit back and peruse the merchandise if that's your speed. :)

[Azafran]

I completely agree with this. Players are essential for creators, and in a healthy modding community like this, there should be much more players than creators, or this doesn't make any sense (it doesn't need to make sense to make a map, the creative process is still fun, but you know what I mean).

Nobody should feel obligated to give anything back. The giving back should be rewarding enough for people to want to do it just for fun, not obligation, and I think that's the case.

[Canjul]

I graciously accept this award on behalf of all the lurkers in the Doom community.

 

Also, I happened to just be listening to the awesome AV Midi Pack on your Youtube as I write this, which seems serendipitous!

 

Really though, the sentiment is appreciated, and the Doom community is amazing. I've been around PC gaming for more than 20 years, and there are some pretty cool communities; Bethesda games attract incredible mod talent, Monster Hunter has a super helpful and chill community, but Doom? I've never seen anything like the sustained creative talent and camraderie of Doom. So damn beautiful, happy it exists, and happy all of you exist!

[Dragonfly]

Hear! Hear!

 

Shoutouts to everyone who's ever expressed hate for the shit I make, you guys made me better 🤙

[Devalaous]

Thank for you for this Cammy, ive always struggled to feel like I had much worth on the forums, since I 'never contributed anything'. Even when I was helping Kyka and Megamur with Revilution by keeping the team inspired and giving us a plot and directions, and managing the soundtrack and stuff, there were some looking down on me for not having my name on the maplist, and it was one of the reasons I took the job that required me to basically leave Revilution; I had this distinct feeling that I was just seen as an 'ideas guy' and the project had found its feet by then, so without mapping contributions I figured I was no longer needed (It turned out my presence and boundless energy and inspiration for the project was contagious, leading to a lull after I was gone, whoops! Never assume you have no worth.)

 

Even years later, ive still had that nagging feeling that without contributions I wont ever be taken seriously, I funneled that negativity into learning Doom modding that I know I CAN do, and today I make small quality of life stuff largely for newer Doomers, stuff that improves or patches older content, adds support for newer ports, that sort of thing. It makes me feel better, even if it was all originally just selfish patches for me myself and I :p

[nobleflame]

I completely agree. I've never had the time or knowledge to create content for DOOM (although I'd like to some day), but I will always provide positive and constructive feedback through playtesting whenever I can. 

 

I love all of the work your guys produce and am in awe at the level of talent and willingness to share free content that exists in this community. I like to think that Carmack's ethical decision to release the source code for DOOM flows through this community and is one of the reasons DOOM is still going strong 30 years after its release. Even from a anthropological point of view this is an incredible thing.  

[smeghammer]

Indeedy! Completely agree.

 

The players make the game what it is of course.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if there are many people who have only ever played the original campaign and maps - Discussions, enthusiasm, comments, stories, videos, etc. etc. of just the base game are a big part of this community even without custom content.

 

It's perfectly OK for people to love the game without producing any of their own custom content - after all, it is the love of the game that is important. The fact that so many people DO make custom content certainly helps the vitality and continued longevity of the game. I think that the continued fantastic output probably inspires some people to try their hand at making something new - and that of course adds to the legacy of the game.

 

[Roofi]

"I've been around for so long and I still haven't given back to the community with content of my own yet. I'm obligated to fix that!"

 

I think this mindset comes from the fact people tend to care less of your opinions and such about doom content if you're not a creator.

 

While the lurkers are "still" valued members, creators are objectively the most valued ones. And many creators are players too by the way.

 

Anyway, I don't think total lurkers care about this lol , but some long-date members tend to do though.

 

[Ravendesk]

8 minutes ago, Roofi said:

I think this mindset comes from the fact people tend to care less of your opinions and such about doom content if you're not a creator.

This is not true. In reality it's the other way around. Everyone is mapping so it's hard to find an innocent soul not corrupted by UDB and pure opinions of those are the most cherished.

[Wo0p]

Hear, hear!

 

I haven't been around for long but the amount of support for new mappers, support for idiots like me trying to figure out coding and just generally a "let's all help each other out become better at this thing we love: DOOM" has been nothing short of life-affirming to me.

 

Yes we get grumpy, yes we have a bad day and respond with a less than savoury reply on a thread from time to time. We're only human. But I can honestly say (Although I haven't been around for long so I probably have a bit of rose-tinted glasses syndrome going on) that this community has been the nicest I've ever encountered online. And also given me a whole lot of enjoyment and happiness on top of that :)

 

So thanks Doom community for existing, lurker or creator. A community is made up of people of all contributors; emotional, creative and participants all. <3

[mammothForger]

I agree on this. I started mapping because it felt very fun, but there are some times where I feel obligated to make a map in order to keep my title as a mapper. Thank you for creating this thread as a reminder, Cammy B-)

 

1 hour ago, Dreamskull said:

The actual magic is where the people making maps can do more with less, not caring what other people think and instead are doing what needs to be done regardless of emotional distress the process itself causes. Thats very difficult to do and its easy to fall down into a pit afterward. No one told me or my friends about that and we got blindsided. Theres like a whole 2 people whove got anything nice to say about it and far more people making excuses for themselves on why they think things should be different. While Id like to say more on the topic, I wouldnt even be able to scratch the surface.

Addendum to your comment: Caring what other people think as long as they provide good criticism and feedback, taking the feedback in a professional way by improving your work rather than an amateur way by overreacting to what they think or emotional distress.

[bioshockfan90]

As a former mapper (didn't release anything major, just a few speedmapping sessions and maybe a community proj. or two), I can't agree more. I get gratification out of playing WADs, I think it's interesting where your brain goes once you've mapped for a bit. You pay attention more to design choices whilst playing WADs, you admire the layout in the automap, hell, if there are secrets I can't find I'll straight up open up the map in UDB and look for secret sectors so I can get the secret exit. And sometimes something will catch my eye that I can spend a while looking at like the mechanisms of some linedef actions. 

 

That being said, content comes in many forms. I feel like nobody truly *is* a lurker. If you're posting on this thread, if you're posting on any thread on DW, if you're commenting on Doom YouTube videos from your favorite creators, if you're active in a discord no matter how small, you're a part of the community in my eyes. You're as valuable as anyone else for the fact that you, yes, *you* help keep the game alive nearly 30 years after its release. I thought about this subject several years ago when I first made my Doomworld account, that I was part of the "new wave" and I felt obligated to make maps so that once the 'old-timers' passed or they stopped caring about Doom, I could step in and be part of that next generation. Well, I stopped mapping and stopped playing Doom for about 3 years and came back. What happened? 

 

Every time I boot up a new community proj. or mapset, or see what's in development on the WAD releases forum, it's by a name I don't recognize. The point I'm making here is that the people that want to make maps will make maps. Myhouse.wad has already gotten some of my longtime friends to get back into doom, and they've never even been into it nowhere near the degree I have, even casually. Projects like RAMP exist now, to help people get into the mapping scene more and more, and once every couple years, you DO get a release like, say, myhouse, that propels Doom back into the mainstream. Before that, maybe SIGIL or, hell I dunno, Ancient Aliens. There will never be a drought of content as long as there are people around to (like I said, comment, be active in messaging forums, etc...) participate in playing these WADs and sharing their thoughts on them. I suppose I got a bit distracted as to what the definition of a "true lurker" would be, but in my mind such a thing doesn't exist with how interconnected everyone is on the web nowadays. Something as simple as talking about Doom to a friend puts you out of lurker status to me. 

 

Anyway, spheal over. TL;DR Everyone is a participant in the Doom community no matter how big or small. Your playing of wads and discourse over them helps more mappers exist. It's a self-sustaining cycle. 

[Rudolph]

@Cammy Thank you for the kind words, but... what exactly prompted you to make that statement?

[Roofi]

2 hours ago, Ravendesk said:

This is not true. In reality it's the other way around. Everyone is mapping so it's hard to find an innocent soul not corrupted by UDB and pure opinions of those are the most cherished.

 

Yep you're right , opinions from outsiders can be very interesting to read ! But I also have the feeling that the content from those innocent souls, as you said, can be overshadowed by the creators' expertise.

[RaRu Des2122]

I'm not a mapper at all (and I'm unlikely to become one in the near future). I just play the modern and not-so-modern works of our large community and record it. 

Therefore, sometimes there is a feeling that I am the most ordinary consumer and do not give anything to the community in return.

 

So thanks for the kind words, @Cammy!

 

 

[PsychEyeball]

I actually made my first map as of late! It's not a masterpiece or anything (duh) but I'm glad I took the time to do so, it was fun while it happened. Hopefully people will either have some fun or have a laugh at it when they play it, at that point I feel like I already got my time's worth. (It'll be released through RAMP 2023 for people who are curious)

 

As for me, I already was sort of an outsider to the Doom community as a music maker and it turned out that Doom was what I was getting known for so there was no reason to not join. And hey, further exposure to Doom just might make you do more and more Doom stuff in the end.

 

So yeah, you who is reading this! Maybe the Doom bug will also bite you and you'll want to do something. If not, that's okay. There's still plenty of time to think about it. Doom is not going away anytime soon, or the people interested in it.

[OpenRift]

There's a lot of great things you can do in a community besides make content. Providing answers, feedback, and advice is like a cornerstone of what makes an effective forum.

[JohnR60]

I agree with Cammy's post, really even though I'm not very active, I feel part of the community, which in my case I joined recently and started recording the maps I was playing and commenting on them. Currently, outside of it, I also began to collaborate when they need map testers to see if the gameplay of a level works correctly, and I think it is my way of collaborating with the community in conjunction with recording the levels and mentioning who the creators were.

 

I am currently playing RAMP and I have seen that there are hundreds of Doom map content creators each with their own style and way of creating levels, designing the maps and it is a lot of fun to play the maps they have created. I have often been impressed with the level of detail in these levels compared to the days of classic Doom and how far the Doom community has progressed in terms of map creators compared to the original ones.

 

And the latter is due to the map creators and all the people who actively participate in it by playing them and also collaborating. Thanks for everything!

 

[Tompig]

I will continue to bless you all with my grace, beauty, presence, and perfectly honed virtue of modesty.

 

I love you all.

[Cammy]

2 hours ago, Rudolph said:

@Cammy Thank you for the kind words, but... what exactly prompted you to make that statement?

 

I think the idea was put in my head by the past couple channel anniversary videos that decino has made, in which he says something to the effect of "So I've played lots of the community's work this year. But did I actually give back to the community with content of my own for once?"

 

It was said in jest, I'm sure, but the thought still had to come from somewhere, and I felt like it was a notion worth doing a little work to dispel.

[cannonball]

Great post, in the end our primary reason for being here is our love of the original IWads etc. No one is obligated to do any more than that. However it is fantastic to still see so many people creating content and pushing the limits of this game even to this day.

Also I can agree wholeheartedly with Dragonfly, the tough love during the early days of my mapping career certainly helped me a lot.

[Insaneprophet]

My knee jerk reaction... just like Paul Stanley told me when i was a kid...

Without us the fans (players) you wouldnt be able to live your dream of being a rockstar (mapper)

 

Well you are welcome, from a fan, and thank you for being awesome when I am not 😜

[Lucius Wooding]

To actually contribute to this topic and not an unseemly tangent:

 

Lurkers and non-mappers aren't second class citizens. They've always been a big part of the community and whatever contributions they make, even if it's just as an audience, are valuable. Apparently someone said otherwise? I do think everyone who's deeply interested in Doom should learn about mapping basics or some sort of creative outlet, since it's pretty rewarding and can help you appreciate the game more. But it's not a requirement, nor is there any level of skill or seriousness needed for my approval.

 

Mappers and content creators and their work should be respected for the effort they put in. Other players who give feedback should also be heard and their counsel considered. It doesn't mean reviewers (or mappers) are always right, even if they're good with words or popular or an authority on Doom in general. But having a civil discussion and sharing on both sides is what we're about. I, for one, take comfort in the fact that random people might play my map on Idgames even though I might never know about it. It doesn't bother me if that person isn't the Dean of Doom or some huge Twitch channel and they don't revere it like the greatest achievement in mapping history.

[Nine Inch Heels]

6 minutes ago, Lucius Wooding said:

Lurkers and non-mappers aren't second class citizens. They've always been a big part of the community and whatever contributions they make, even if it's just as an audience, are valuable. Apparently someone said otherwise?

 

The thing is, anybody's time spent within any given community is what they make of it.

 

If you are content with just cruising along, playing a few maps here and there, and perhaps sharing a few thoughts on them, then that's what you should be doing, because then you're doing it right in your individual situation. If you enjoy creating MIDIs, then that's what you should be doing. If playtesting is your thing, you ought to be doing that, etc...

 

The person saying otherwise does not seem to understand that everything that's happening here is happening on a 100% voluntary basis, no matter what it is, and that no amount of work anybody puts into anything means they get to expect that others put as much time into anything, too.

 

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever, for anyone, to get involved with anything they don't enjoy being a part of. For instance, since I've been around, I've hosted a small community project, and I learned quickly that it's not something I am particularly good at - not because I can't do it at all, but because I'm not getting much of anything out of it while it is a pretty time-consuming endeavour, to say the least.

 

I did learn, however, that I'm not too shabby at contributing to community projects, so that's what I ended up doing for the most part, aside of playtesting stuff for folks whose maps I enjoyed for one reason or another, and writing up a somewhat comprehensive guide on teleport closets. One may argue all that was altruistic, but it wasn't. I did that stuff, because I had fun doing it.

 

Point being, if you don't like what you're doing on these forums, because it makes you feel bad for one reason or another, just don't do it. That's not to say that grievances should never be spoken of, mind, but finding your comfort-zone in a community, while staying away from what bothers you, is your personal responsibility entirely. It may take some time to get where you are most comfortable, but crying foul because nobody's rolling out the red carpet - which is what that certain "someone" has been doing - isn't how you get there.

[Black Star]

I appreciate this post so much, words can't even convey. I've lurked for literal decades precisely because I've felt that I haven't really "earned the right" to interact with the community. Like going to a wedding without a gift sort of thing. I've loved this game since I was 10 years old and I turn 40 this year...I've been "challenging" myself to be more present because I do eventually want to contribute to the community, but between the wedding gift analogy, social anxiety and overall impostor syndrome, it's kind of a bitch to overcome. But I'm working on it. Hopefully one day I'll feel like I actually "earned my stay" or I'll shoot a rocket at it one day, time will tell, haha.

 

edited to add: I've lurked around for so long that I remember NewDoom, the notgod forums (original zdoom) and this one Hispanic 'doomworld' of sorts that I can't remember the name that well. Doom Zone? No idea. Been too long.

[Xaser]

15 hours ago, Devalaous said:

Thank for you for this Cammy, ive always struggled to feel like I had much worth on the forums, since I 'never contributed anything'. Even when I was helping Kyka and Megamur with Revilution by keeping the team inspired and giving us a plot and directions, and managing the soundtrack and stuff, there were some looking down on me for not having my name on the maplist, and it was one of the reasons I took the job that required me to basically leave Revilution; I had this distinct feeling that I was just seen as an 'ideas guy' and the project had found its feet by then, so without mapping contributions I figured I was no longer needed (It turned out my presence and boundless energy and inspiration for the project was contagious, leading to a lull after I was gone, whoops! Never assume you have no worth.)

 

Even years later, ive still had that nagging feeling that without contributions I wont ever be taken seriously, I funneled that negativity into learning Doom modding that I know I CAN do, and today I make small quality of life stuff largely for newer Doomers, stuff that improves or patches older content, adds support for newer ports, that sort of thing. It makes me feel better, even if it was all originally just selfish patches for me myself and I :p

 

I dunno if this helps any, but my first thoughts on reading this were something like "dang, why's our resident UMAPINFO saint worried about their worth?" You're doing damn good stuff there.

[Solmyr]

2 hours ago, Black Star said:

Hispanic 'doomworld' of sorts that I can't remember the name that well. Doom Zone? No idea. Been too long.

Arcades 3D?

[Black Star]

No, that doesn't ring a bell at all. The website layout reminded me of New Doom, that's for sure.  I remember posts about a DoHom mod for...I think it was Edge. There might have been mentions of a mapper named Cabro, too.

[Helm]

I don't have anything to contribute to the thread, Cammy put it so nicely. So perhaps I shouldn't post at all and just like the posts, but I think this is one of these cases where for any user who could be feeling like they're useless, anyone taking the time to actually verbalize that this is not true at all, and what Cammy wrote above outlines the broad sentiment around which *any* healthy community naturally forms, might have some cumulative weight. I've been posting for a couple of yrs or whatever but I have been on and off lurking for 15. No creative community is supported purely by the creatives. Every proponent of a 'scene' (as we called them because we all come from some sort of youth subculture or another) has a crucial function, we are humans and we like being close to each other. Even if you don't map, perhaps you gave encouragement to someone. Even if you don't play the game at all, perhaps you said the right thing at the right time to someone on the forum. You do not know what sorts of things linger in other people's minds, even if they made them laugh one day they might have really needed that. As we grow older and we are no longer in youth subcultures, 'scene cred' should be reevaluated. The longevity and consistency of a community over times hinges on mutual support instead.

[Catpho]

3 hours ago, Black Star said:

No, that doesn't ring a bell at all. The website layout reminded me of New Doom, that's for sure.  I remember posts about a DoHom mod for...I think it was Edge. There might have been mentions of a mapper named Cabro, too.

You didn't misremember: there was a site named Doom Zone. Seems its existence is poorly documented (not a mention on Doom wiki, but then again not even arcades3d gets an article), compounded by the super common name (searching brings up the DZone compilation often) I only stumbled on it through your vague mention of DoHom and Cabro. Too bad that it is unreadable to me as Chrome doesn't wanna translate it for some reason, but good find.

(Sorry for the derail from Cammy's wholesome post :P)