Doom books

[The_Aeromaster]

And another thing... a swastika is not a fucking religious symbol. Nazi-ism (I dunno how u'd put that) is not a religion, its more of a philosophy, ie. if u take all the people in the world who hate gays ur not forming a religion, ur just a group with a certain prejudice. It has nothing to do with religion. So even if Fly had an extreme reaction to the swastika, which I don't see where u read that? that doesn't make him religious, it just means he don't like Nazi-ism. That's like saying I'm religious because I hate stupid people, it's prejudice, not religion.

[Rotting Corpse]

Most people dont know this but the swastika was orglay a Buddhist symbol.There are alot of statues of Buda with it on his cheast.The nazi just turnded it side ways.

[Fletcher`]

Demons Hand said:

Most people dont know this but the swastika was orglay a Buddhist symbol.There are alot of statues of Buda with it on his cheast.The nazi just turnded it side ways.

The Maltese cross didn't used to be confused with the evil sign either. Damn Nazis gotta fuck up everything. :(

[Black Hand]

for all i know this forum has been abandoned for 3 years but oh well what the hell.....

I personally loved the first despite all the glitches that you are exposing like the crackfiend starwars fan legions. the only arguement i have to offer is a MY GOSH original one.

Ok class heres your assignment i want you all to make four books on

-somthing as redundent as "i walked around a corner and killed two more of them"

-All female charecters can't be strong physically and mentally as dumb men feel EXTREMELY intimidated to be out classed by a woman in any way. (if you want to see the typical heroinne on pcp thing go play the game "oni" for five minutes and then youll have somthing ti bitch about)

- The charecters have to be realisticly normal

- All charecters most never get scared or show any sign of weakness but have trained super human brains witch keep them from seeing fear in the face of blood thirsty hodes of deamons.(yes this directly contradicts the one preceading this.

- The names have to sound human but be orignal and be easy to pronounce, be mono sylible or two at the highest.

- All charecters must know all the names of the monsters they kill before killing it

- All charecters must yet retain a sence of suprise even though they mysteriely know all the names and attributes of these deamons before hand.

- No mormans

- Even though it is one hundred percent realistic to have people sell there souls to the enemy to save there own asses they can't do this cause they all have the same honer system that requires them to stand in a line to die.

- These people in direct contrast of the above by unrealisticly fallowing every moral value that meets confrontation in life must still be realistic.

- Whoever said that the main charecter should be 100 percent badass 100 percent of the time needs a cat scan.(seriesly do you have any friggen idea how fucken redundent the books would get if there was never any fear.)

id like to state that i have only the first book as i cant find the other three. My arguement is based intirly on some of the contradicting comments ive heard from this thread.

ps: FOR CHRISTS SAKE were can we get these books?

[dsm]

Damn, just when I thought this discussion had turned decent, I get this shit.

Black Hand said:
-somthing as redundent as "i walked around a corner and killed two more of them"

Helloooo stupid, I never said I wanted a book as redundant as this - My point has constantly been that it could've been written in a less redundant fashion. Spike, a few others who have written cool stories based on official and non-official Doom maps, even myself, are capable of doing that, so stop fucking insinuating that we want the books to be more on par with the game in terms of in-game events (which means "nada-happens-other-than-shooting-critters"). That's not what we want. And notice how both of the two books have a lot of just shooting demons - especially in the first book, where there isn't really any "side-tracking events" or deviations from the killing worth mentioning.

-All female charecters can't be strong physically and mentally as dumb men feel EXTREMELY intimidated to be out classed by a woman in any way. (if you want to see the typical heroinne on pcp thing go play the game "oni" for five minutes and then youll have somthing ti bitch about)

Ridiculous. I don't mind strong women, I mind strong and super model-looking babes so that all the horny 14 year-olds can masturbate the crap out of their dick while reading the book. That's just pathetic.

- The charecters have to be realisticly normal

No they have to have a decent level of believability to them and be bearable - the characters could easily have been much better.

- All charecters most never get scared or show any sign of weakness but have trained super human brains witch keep them from seeing fear in the face of blood thirsty hodes of deamons.(yes this directly contradicts the one preceading this.

Judging by the fact that the novels are based off Doom, the characters should naturally be frightened, but not to the point that they can't get themselves to fight back.
Doom takes place in the future and by then, horror movies are bound to make modern horror movies laughable in comparison - that means that the main character should be a little more "used" to see inexplicable things - he'll still be scared of course since he's used to only seeing them in a movie, but it's not like he's gonna be totally paralyzed.
I never asked for a damn terminator, I asked for a character that feels a little more like the doomguy.

- The names have to sound human but be orignal and be easy to pronounce, be mono sylible or two at the highest.

I'm sure that you would love to have the doomguy be named Flimsk McGooglesplum or something.

- All charecters must know all the names of the monsters they kill before killing it

Sheesh, another IQ-of-a-brick remark. Of course they don't have to know the names stupid, but if they must come up with names, they should at least come up with something that gives the right associations. When I hear something as dumb as "Steam demon" I think of a creature that looks like a freakin' steam roller. When I hear the name "Clyde" the last thing I expect is some beefed up commando with a powerful machinegun weapon. Such names could only cause confusion in the damn intel which could get lots of soldiers killed - and yes, Fly and AS are alone at first, but they have to assume that they might find allies that have no clue.

- No mormans

Correction: No drivel of complete religious vomit - if they keep that out they can put all the damn Mormons in the world into the novels as characters for all I care.

- Even though it is one hundred percent realistic to have people sell there souls to the enemy to save there own asses they can't do this cause they all have the same honer system that requires them to stand in a line to die.

This is getting funnier and funnier. So, you see some big mofo of an evil-looking monster that could easily have been pulled out of your worst nightmare and you go all, "n..n..no, I'll fight on your side if you let me live!"? I don't think so - you'd run away. And you wouldn't even try to fight it, you'd run away in blind panic.

- Whoever said that the main charecter should be 100 percent badass 100 percent of the time needs a cat scan.(seriesly do you have any friggen idea how fucken redundent the books would get if there was never any fear.)

And you need to have your brain scanned if you think that's what I wanted. Christ, I want him to be bad, yes, not emotionless and "100%" fearless.

Some people need to read posts probably before they open their trapdoor.

PS Aeromaster and all the other folks that have presented decent counter arguments on why they like the books, none of my comments here are directed at you in any way - I do not attempt to insinuate that you're stupid for thinking differently than I do, so if I use words like "moron" and the like, it's because I'm damn angry that some guy overinterprets my previous comments - something that I absolutely abhor.

[The_Aeromaster]

Black Hand said:

for all i know this forum has been abandoned for 3 years but oh well what the hell.....

I personally loved the first despite all the glitches that you are exposing like the crackfiend starwars fan legions. the only arguement i have to offer is a MY GOSH original one.

Ok class heres your assignment i want you all to make four books on

-somthing as redundent as "i walked around a corner and killed two more of them"

-All female charecters can't be strong physically and mentally as dumb men feel EXTREMELY intimidated to be out classed by a woman in any way. (if you want to see the typical heroinne on pcp thing go play the game "oni" for five minutes and then youll have somthing ti bitch about)

- The charecters have to be realisticly normal

- All charecters most never get scared or show any sign of weakness but have trained super human brains witch keep them from seeing fear in the face of blood thirsty hodes of deamons.(yes this directly contradicts the one preceading this.

- The names have to sound human but be orignal and be easy to pronounce, be mono sylible or two at the highest.

- All charecters must know all the names of the monsters they kill before killing it

- All charecters must yet retain a sence of suprise even though they mysteriely know all the names and attributes of these deamons before hand.

- No mormans

- Even though it is one hundred percent realistic to have people sell there souls to the enemy to save there own asses they can't do this cause they all have the same honer system that requires them to stand in a line to die.

- These people in direct contrast of the above by unrealisticly fallowing every moral value that meets confrontation in life must still be realistic.

- Whoever said that the main charecter should be 100 percent badass 100 percent of the time needs a cat scan.(seriesly do you have any friggen idea how fucken redundent the books would get if there was never any fear.)

id like to state that i have only the first book as i cant find the other three. My arguement is based intirly on some of the contradicting comments ive heard from this thread.

ps: FOR CHRISTS SAKE were can we get these books?

I'm with dsm on this one... dude, there are contradicting remarks in this thread because there are a) people in favor of the books and b) people who don't like them... that equals two different points of view, and they'd better oppose each other or its no longer a discussion is it?

And it was me that said "100% badass 100% of the time", but in the next line, i explain, and u'll see i was being sarcastic and stated what u said about that not working cause the characters need to be believeable in a book compared to the character in a game. I also agree that Fly doesn't feel much like the Doomguy, in fact I think I said that earlier too.

dsm, I want to say that the reason Fly gave the name "steamdemon", if u read it, is because the way it sounded when it walked reminded him of an old steam locomotive, and if u think about it, especially in D64, u can see his point if u use your imagination. The names they gave some of the other monsters weren't too shabby, but I don't see what's wrong with "steamdemon" especially if you see where he gets it from.

As far the given names causing confusion in the Intel and about their allies not knowing what they mean, how descriptive is cyberdemon? I don't get "rocket-launching skyscraper with goat legs" from that... in fact you could describe the cybie or the two spiders as "cyberdemon" cause they all match the description. Sure if you saw a cyberdemon and a mastermind together, you might assume that the spider would be given a name with "spider" or "arachna" in it, but if you had never seen a cyberdemon before and were looking at a mastermind, when you hear "cyberdemon" you see the evil brain inside the mechanical body and think "hey that demons looks cybernetic" and blast him.

How descriptive is "revenant" or "mancubus"? Really "bony" and "fatty" are much more likely to be understood, when your CO tells you to attack that squad of Revenants and you're not sure what a Revenant is, you might attack go after some archies or a pack of demons(there's a real fuckin specific name don't ya think?) cause Revenant ain't very specific. If he tells you take out those bonies, and you see a dozen walking skeletons, even if you don't know the terminology you know what he means.

I do agree that Clyde is the dumbest monster name in the series, with strong competition from "superpumpkin" for the pain elemental, that's just not very original... pumpkin isn't exactly good either for the cacodemon, but again, if u don't know which one is a cacodemon, u might think of which one looks like its laughing at you, and the imp looks like that, as well as the flying skulls, revenants, and pain elementals, although pumpkin isn't quite as easy as bony, but I think if I heard pumpkin I'd be able to narrow it down to a Caco, cause his eyes and mouth glowing like that kinda remind u of a Halloween pumpkin, and it is just a big, floating head, as a pumpkin looks like for Halloween.

Watch this:
-zombies is universal, if u can't understand that, you should just kill yourself immediately

-Clyde vs. Chaingunner, Chaingunner or Commando wins, given

-imp vs. spiny, neither one is specific enough cause imp, i mean think about it, imp is just a devilish looking demon, a Baron looks alot more devilish than an imp, but by the same token, spiny could work for the imp, both minatours from the horns on their head, or the Caco or PE, but you'd probly think of the lil brown bastard was the spiny cause he's got the most spines

-pinkie is a ton more specific than demon

-ghost vs. spectre, both are specific enough but spectre sounds a ton better

-lost soul vs. flying skull... flying skull... u might think of a spectre or ghost when you hear "lost soul"

-Cacodemon vs. pumpkin, they're about equally likely to be understood, as explained above^

-hell prince vs. hell knight and Baron of Hell, none are very descriptive by themselves, but a hell knight and a Baron together is easy to see, one is just a stronger form of the other, although the base name could still mean anything, neither wins

-arachnotron vs. spiderbaby, again, neither has much advantage over the other, although spiderbaby says "little spider" alot better than arachnotron, all you get from that is its one of the spiders, if you saw an arachnotron next to a Mastermind and were given the order to kill the arachnotron, you wouldn't know which one is which

-revenant vs bony, bony wins

-mancubus vs fatty, fatty wins

-fire-eater vs Arch-Vile, fire-eater, although not very original, what other monster, besides maybe an imp, but Arch-Vile could mean anything

-spidermind/Spider Mastermind, same thing

-steamdemon vs. cyberdemon, explained above^ neither really wins, cause you're no more likely to pick it up when you see one, except you might recognize the sound, as Fly did, and understand steamdemon, cyberdemon could be one of 3, but no other monster sounds like a steam engine

The point? The book's descriptions, more of them can stand on their own, whereas the official names, you haveta memorize it. If you hadn't heard any names at all before, and you heard "mancubus, revenant, demon" you haven't a clue what each could mean. When you hear "fatty, bony, pinkie" you're much more likely to understand. When you see a fat-ass monster, a pile of bones, and a big bloated pink bull-horned fucker runnin at you, you know which ones are which.

[dsm]

Aeromaster: I didn't read all of your points yet (may do that later), but that's not because of disrespect or anything - on the contrary, I have come to understand your points. I can't counter them, because I don't want to dig into what I've already said (which would be pretty dumb) - my already stated opinions are firm and can probably not be rocked.

I respect your views, but I do not share your sentiments. Regardless of what the authors' reasons for taking the direction they took and using the names they used, I still don't like them - it's a matter of taste after all.

So with all due respect I shall withdraw until I finish my next review - Those reviews are meant to analyze each individual book and point out why I think they're "faulty" - you can argue with them or agree with them if you please, but don't expect to change my opinions on them.

And in reply to the thread author's question: According to other people on DW, you should be able to buy them from Ebay - don't expect to find them in a conventional bookstore.
[major edit]Ok, now I read your points, and I think I shoudl clarify a little on my views. I'm gonna take the names one by one and you'll see that I only have a problem with a few of the names.

First the names I hate:

Steam demon: Part of me agrees with you and the other part does not. Yes, cyberdemon does not exactly say "Skyscraper demon with rocket hand", but it's closer to what it is. Notice that this thing's interior is mechanical as indicated by the hole in its stomach revealing wires and whatnot and then there's the mechanical leg and the rocket launcher arm. Of course, there are other monsters that are cybernetic, but other names fit those better, so in the end, cyberdemon will cue people in on what it is. Other cybernetic demons are the mancubuses/mancubi, arachnotrons and the Spider masterminds. Something with "fat" in it fits the mancubus much better than "cyberdemon", because it is still largely organic (only its arms are replaced with tech), "spiderdemon"/"spiderbrain" will instantly cue you in on our "spidery, chaingunning friend". So all there's left is the cybie which appropriately could be called "cyberdemon" (as it is the first cybernetic monster encountered). But then again, I never directly said that I wanted them to call the cybie a "cyberdemon" (although that certainly wouldn't be far off).

The problem with steam demon, is that apart from sounding goofy, it does not give the right associations at all (even if it sounds like a locomotive) - even when the monster was described, I kept getting images in my head of some cheesy, four-legged demon with a large, steam roller drum instead of a mouth. I just couldn't bring myself to think of it as a scyscraper-tall cybernetic demon with badass horns and a rocket launcher for a hand (Moloch was a lot better, but still didn't give the right connotations).

Clyde: Nothing said that didn't already cover that one - we both agree that it sucks - there is probably some reference to a real guy named Clyde, but I don't get it and I'm quite sure that even most Americans wouldn't get it either. It doesn't make sense in other words and sounds really dumb. Commando is what every soldier with at least a wee bit of common sense would call it. Alternatives are "gunner" or "machinegunner" (that's what you'd call an LMG-toting soldier in real life).

Names that I only have slight problems with

Pumpkin: For all intents and purposes, this name doesn't sound bad and is thus bearable, but somewhere, I still find that it does not fit. "Cyclops head" would be more fitting imho, but that's a matter of taste - I'm sure somebody would puke if the authors had named it "Cyclops head", so I'll rest my case.

Super pumpkin: Same as above, except that the "super" sounds pretty cheap so it's actually worse. But again, I wasn't put off by it.

The rest of the names, as far as I recall, don't nauseate me in any way or make me frown. I never said that I had a problem with "Fatty", "boney" or "spiney" iirc - I even think I used those names myself in one of my own fan fics (although to a very limited degree). So unless I've forgotten something, the only "Doom demon" names that I hate/remotely dislike in the novels are the ones mentioned in this post.

Thank you.
[/major edit]

[Dark Linux]

Several people have pointed out that Fly doesn't feel very much like the Doom Guy, which is probably because everyone has their own impression of what the Doom Guy should be like. One person's idea of how he would be like can stongly conflict with someone else's. It's not surprising though, because the Doom Guy is supposed to be the player, so I would assume that when most people imagine the Doom Guy, he'd probably be something they could easily relate to -- themselves. So, I'll bet that the only person who would think the Doom Guy is exactly how they imagine him to be in a fan-fic or these novels, would be the author.

[The_Aeromaster]

Holy Avenger has an excellent point. Also, dsm, I know you respect my opinion, and I respect yours. I'm not at all trying to change your views, because that'd be pretty stupid (not saying ur stubborn, just that, like me, u think alot before u make up your mind, so thinking about it more won't change much).
My goal really is to let other people involved in the thread see both sides, yours and mine, then they could decide for themselves if they like it or not, instead of just loving or hating them for stupid reasons. We've both made strong, and like you said, unwavering points, for both sides, so it really is a matter of taste as you pointed out. I just want to make sure people aren't judging the books by their smell before they try it.
By the way, as far as the monsters goes, read the rest of it, I don't think there's much arguing with my reasoning there, which is rare, I'll admit.

Oh yeah... they named the Clyde for Clyde Barrow, the masculine co-bandit from Bonnie and Clyde who were famous criminals back in the 40s i believe it was. They made a good movie on it if I'm not mistaken. But for a monster name? What the fuck? I'll bet better monster names could come up in 9 out of 10 spoonfulls of alphabet cereal.

[Dark Linux]

Heh, yeah, they hated that name in the novel too. At least everyone but Arlene did.

[dsm]

Holy Avenger said:

Several people have pointed out that Fly doesn't feel very much like the Doom Guy, which is probably because everyone has their own impression of what the Doom Guy should be like. One person's idea of how he would be like can stongly conflict with someone else's. It's not surprising though, because the Doom Guy is supposed to be the player, so I would assume that when most people imagine the Doom Guy, he'd probably be something they could easily relate to -- themselves. So, I'll bet that the only person who would think the Doom Guy is exactly how they imagine him to be in a fan-fic or these novels, would be the author.

Quite right and it depends on the experiences that people had with Doom. My impressions of the doomguy is based off on the characteristics shown in his mug and on what it says about him in the backstory.

The backstory says that "you're one of Earth's toughest marines" - that means that you don't sit down and cry or whimper - that means that you've already been in a lot of shit and seen a lot of shit. In other words, you're supposed to be rather emotionless (but no human is ever completely emotionless).
The game mug never shows fright of any kind, which is of course because of tech limits and the redundancy in adding scared expressions - naturally, I felt that was because the doomguy was good at hiding his fears (veteran soldiers are pretty good at countering their fear - they still fear, but they don't show it).

And then there's my own experiences in the game - I wasn't particularly scared of the game (not until the pitch black rooms). The first time I played it, I saw it as a really cool action game with evil monsters and due to the fact that I was a Wolf3d vet, I was already quite good at maneuvering around. I played on Hurt me Plenty and made it to E1M5 - I only died because I was not used to the reaction time of the zombies and that I wasn't used to the feel of the weapons.
Assuming that the doomguy is a lot more familiar with the weapons at his disposal and used to fighting human troops, his only weakness would be that he faces inhuman creatures unlike anything he's faced before.
He could have trouble with the zombies, yes, but the imps are easy to dodge and look evil enough for you to want to kill them, so I don't understand when Flynn Taggart is so shit scared of them in the book (namely because they're not described as lightning fast creatures) - I can understand his problem with the zombs, but not the imps, skulls and pinkies.

Just so you understand my take on the doomguy.

[Rotting Corpse]

I think that the doom dude is the storng silent type.I dont see some one that went thogh what he did talking that much.Also he might be a little crazy.Going thogh hell deffanitly would sacr you mentaly.

[Dark Linux]

I've also always pictured him as a strong, silent type, but I don't know if I ever thought he was crazy. I wouldn't rule it out though. And even without his backstory there, I also picture him about as emotionless as a human can get.

[Black Hand]

ok dsm youve realy taken somthing that i wrote out of humer and sarcasm and turned it into a declaration of war. ( i did go to far with the cat scan comment)

and aero i sort of understand the idea of a debate that is why i was pointing out the contradicting comments made by the people on the same side of the arguement.


As for my opineon of Flynn name and charecter, i personally think they hit the nail on the head. That is what i always pictured the doom guy to be and despite the fact that the player may want to be a "fearless" "badass" they would all be pretty unrealistic. That not said he wasnt scared of pinkies or skulls.

He was suprised by the skull but but i beleave the timefram between woa that was a skull and him shooting it with his riotgun took about half a line. He was actuay releaved with the pinkies as they don't shoot anything.

dsm whats your working theory on how flynn should react better when killing deamons monsters and aliens because the future has better horror movies? Im praying to god i have your messege mixed up so can you please re explain it to me?

On another note i think the talking imp is cool. I think the auther got how an imp would sound perfectly with the hissing attached to the words. I thought it was stupid to have an imp saw "oh my gosh were having a ball" or somthing in the first book though.

On a side note the "sweet mother mary jesus josephs" are even more annoying then the "yours truelys"

I'm not saying that its a great book but im saying the authers did a good job in making a book thats limited to "find key" "find girl" and "find out" The three f's that are always being used by every sci fi movie maker and game sence the beging of time.

[dsm]

Demons Hand said:

I think that the doom dude is the storng silent type.I dont see some one that went thogh what he did talking that much.Also he might be a little crazy.Going thogh hell deffanitly would sacr you mentaly.

Quite, he might also be a little "weird" at first, but after his trip to Hell, he's definitely going in the direction of complete madness.

Black Hand: If you want to be sarcastic in such a huge post, mark it clearly - I don't feel like spending more time than necessary to figure out a post, and I might add that I was not the only one to react sharply towards your comments (although I admit that I was definitely the most aggressive).

I don't feel like going back and give explanations for my views right now - my views are still the same and they will not change.

[Scuba Steve]

Demons Hand said:

I think that the doom dude is the storng silent type.I dont see some one that went thogh what he did talking that much.Also he might be a little crazy.Going thogh hell deffanitly would sacr you mentaly.

I dunno about that.

[dsm]

Scuba Steve said:

*Dancing marine*

Doomguy: "Yesssss, I'm just so damn tough and badass!!! I just beat Hell!!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!"
*continues to dance around like crazy until some friendly guys tranquilize him and take him to the cuckoo house*

[The_Aeromaster]

Black Hand said:

contradicting comments made by the people on the same side of the arguement.

My friend, I hope you don't mean dsm and I because we're on opposite sides, and even those of us on the same side have our own take, so yeah some parts are going to be contradictory.

When he said about the imp saying "Gosh are we having a ball or what?" when they were walking on the walls and ceilings, I think he may have been imagining it (he did say that low-g makes him sick). However it was probably an off-hand way of saying that having to drag himself down the corridor on that handrail was driving him nuts (very few people can understand this kind of insinuative language... I'm one of them, cause I use it sometimes).

I think comments like "Jesus, Mary and Joseph" or "Mary, Mother of God" are hilarious in the given situations, again, it's probably insinuative language, hard for many people to comprehend. It's not that ur stupid, it's just that most people don't think that way, it's a half-assed version of a metaphor, and can be very effective at times if u understand it. Sometimes it helps build suspense, or it may provide humor^ like I said above.

The game doesn't exactly have a very complex story, but there's more to it than "find key" "find girl" and "find out". In fact, there's no fucking girl in the game, and your objective is not to find your way out, it's to save the fuckin earth from Hell... in fact, in D64, at the end, he doesn't even go back to earth, he remains in hell.

If you live the game, instead of play it, and you really place yourself as the doomguy, it's alot more than killing monsters. There's a loyalty and honor motive behind it, if you can understand these concepts. I think the book only strengthens these feelings, if you live in the character. GET INTO IT. Why the fuck would you read it, or play the game, if u can't immerse yourself in it... otherwise ur not really enjoying it, ur just convincing yourself that u are, and believe me it's quite easy to lie to yourself, especially when you don't know ur doing it.

This isn't just some cheesy fuckin playstation kill that monster cause i dun like the way it looks and have a hot girl runnin around half naked so we could jerk off and grab that potion, slay that dragon with your fairy sword and look at our best attempt to make the levels scary by making it full of monsters and have no feel to it.

This is DOOM god damnit.


BRING ON THE BITCHING

[Black Hand]

I'm very well aware you two are on different sides of the fence but i'm far more concerned that you arn't aware that im aware.

there's more to it than "find key" "find girl" and "find out". In fact, there's no fucking girl in the game, and your objective is not to find your way out, it's to save the fuckin earth from Hell... in fact, in D64, at the end, he doesn't even go back to earth, he remains in hell.

You seemingly ignored that i also stated USED BY MOVIES first and foremost but i can perfectly see why you would only cut out the words in my article that would help your patronization/discusion with me.

[EllipsusD]

The_Aeromaster said:
In fact, there's no fucking girl in the game, and your objective is not to find your way out, it's to save the fuckin earth from Hell... in fact, in D64, at the end, he doesn't even go back to earth, he remains in hell.

Oh gno!! U ruint teh ending!!!111

Anyway, I haven't read the Doom books yet, though I have wanted to for some time. I must say, though that I am not impressed with the few captions from the book that have been posted so far. They just don't seem to be written that well. In any case I'm sure I'll get a chance to read the books one of these days. At least for now it's been interresting reading your opinions on them.

[dsm]

If you live the game, instead of play it, and you really place yourself as the doomguy, it's alot more than killing monsters. There's a loyalty and honor motive behind it, if you can understand these concepts. I think the book only strengthens these feelings, if you live in the character. GET INTO IT. Why the fuck would you read it, or play the game, if u can't immerse yourself in it... otherwise ur not really enjoying it, ur just convincing yourself that u are, and believe me it's quite easy to lie to yourself, especially when you don't know ur doing it.

I both agree and disagree here.
I agree that the game is certainly more than shooting demons and finding the exit.
However, my take on what's the underlying bit is different (of course it is - everybody is meant to have their own interpretation).

The way I see and interpret the underlying bit is not much about honour - I don't see the doomguy as a particularly honourable man. He strives for what he considers right, but he's by no means honourable (otherwise he wouldn't have mutilated his superiour and broken almost every bone in his body - that's just too savage).

So having said that the doomguy is driven by a sort of savage instinct (I interpret it a bit further and imagine that this guy has one Hell of a savage killer instinct), when he finds his comrades dead and himself alone, he's not fighting on to be loyal to the Marine Corps. I don't believe that war vets fight for something as stupid as loyalty to the corps - they fight to save their buddies and if their buddies ain't there, they fight for revenge. In essence, the way I see it, the doomguy is driven by a desire to avenge his comrades and by a desire to end the nightmare around him.

Gradually, I imagine, it becomes an obsession for him to push the evil forces back, to prevent them from reaching Earth (his buddies are dead, but he still has a chance of saving other human beings so that he may not be alone forever).

[The_Aeromaster]

dsm said:

I both agree and disagree here.
I agree that the game is certainly more than shooting demons and finding the exit.
However, my take on what's the underlying bit is different (of course it is - everybody is meant to have their own interpretation).

The way I see and interpret the underlying bit is not much about honour - I don't see the doomguy as a particularly honourable man. He strives for what he considers right, but he's by no means honourable (otherwise he wouldn't have mutilated his superiour and broken almost every bone in his body - that's just too savage).

So having said that the doomguy is driven by a sort of savage instinct (I interpret it a bit further and imagine that this guy has one Hell of a savage killer instinct), when he finds his comrades dead and himself alone, he's not fighting on to be loyal to the Marine Corps. I don't believe that war vets fight for something as stupid as loyalty to the corps - they fight to save their buddies and if their buddies ain't there, they fight for revenge. In essence, the way I see it, the doomguy is driven by a desire to avenge his comrades and by a desire to end the nightmare around him.

Gradually, I imagine, it becomes an obsession for him to push the evil forces back, to prevent them from reaching Earth (his buddies are dead, but he still has a chance of saving other human beings so that he may not be alone forever).

I see that^, but it's still an honorable cause. Just cause he's half-nuts doesn't mean he can't have that sense of loyalty, which is in fact what you mean when you say he wants to avenge his fallen comrades. But I do see your point about his savage instinct^

mutilated his superiour and broken almost every bone in his body

I'm not remembering that, could you elaborate?

[The_Aeromaster]

Black Hand said:

im saying the authers did a good job in making a book thats limited to "find key" "find girl" and "find out" The three f's that are always being used by every sci fi movie maker and game sence the beging of time.

Since the books are based on the game, saying that the book is limited to "find key" "find girl" and "find out" insinuates that you think the game is a simple repetition of those activities. Now, if that was not your intention, I didn't misinterpret what you wrote... you just wrote it wrong. If this was not your intention, please be more clear in writing your posts in the future. If this was your intention, please refer to my 2nd previous post.

If your comment wasn't directed at the game, the only other way to interpret it is that you think all sci-fi is just "find key" "find girl" and "find out". I'd love to see some of dsm's comments on that mindless degredation of the classic science-fiction genre.

[Black Hand]

nah i still think you should just read the whole post and not just every third word that suits yourself.

and it was directed at sci fi movies and sci fi books and sci fi games.

Yes i wasn't just talking about doom i was talking about games as a whole, that may be why i didnt SAY DOOM anywere this of corse means that your assumptions lead you to a missenterpretation.

[dsm]

The_Aeromaster said:

mutilated his superiour and broken almost every bone in his body

I'm not remembering that, could you elaborate?

Sure.
In the Doom backstory it says:

Three years ago you assaulted a superior officer for ordering his soldier to fire upon civilians

Naturally, this reveals that you used violence against a superior but it doesn't reveal how - the next thing, however, should cue you in if you know enough English to fully understand:

He and his body cast were shipped to Pearl Harbor while you were transferred to Mars

I don't know if your native language is English or not, but as far as I know, "body cast" refers to something stabilizing his entire body (think of an arm cast to support a broken arm), which means that his superiour got most of his bones broken.

I didn't know this myself until sometime last year when BBG pointed it out to me. (I hadn't a clue what "body cast" meant until then).

[Melfice]

Anyone wanna make wagers on how long it'll be before this thread goes to Post Hell? ^_^

[IMJack]

Melfice Darkmage said:

Anyone wanna make wagers on how long it'll be before this thread goes to Post Hell? ^_^

It won't. This is a decent discussion for a change.

[Melfice]

True, I haven't seen this good of a conversation here yet.

I would bother to go further myself, but I tend to be a bit repetitive when I've already given my point.

[The_Aeromaster]

Black Hand said:

nah i still think you should just read the whole post and not just every third word that suits yourself.

and it was directed at sci fi movies and sci fi books and sci fi games.

Yes i wasn't just talking about doom i was talking about games as a whole, that may be why i didnt SAY DOOM anywere this of corse means that your assumptions lead you to a missenterpretation.

OK, look... when u don't specify what u mean in a comment that can be seen as directed at two different subjects, anyone is libel to interpret it either way, and that person is probably going to think it's directed at the subject we're already on (we're talking about the Doom books, not sci-fi in general, so if u make a insinuative comment like you did, we're going to assume that it's based on the subject at hand, which is the books)... in any case, in my last post, I theorized that u might've been talking about sci-fi in general instead of the Doom games and books specifically and offered the comment that not all sci-fi is as simple as u try to make it out to be, while I do agree that some science fiction movies/games/books could've been better written by a 5 year-old, but this is definately not the case in Doom...

If u look beyond the WORDS in the story and at what they actually represent, and beyond what you DO in the game as opposed to what you feel (if you've properly taken the first step of recognizing the story), as I said in one of my earlier posts, there's concepts there that very many people think they believe in, but very few of them really understand. And even if you don't see this (this isn't because ur stupid, it's just not the way many people evolve into thinking), you still must respect that that is what others believe.

If you think I don't have respect for what you believe, maybe you should examine this post a little closer before you reply to it, because I very clearly state in there that your comments are by no means stupid, and that the opinion of others IS to be respected, and that what you THINK is much more important than what you say, that's why I said you should be more careful to convey your feelings accurately.

dsm and I have both stated at several points during this discussion, that other people are entitled to their opinions, and that we respect them, and these arguements are not attempts to belittle other people's beliefs, nor to try to change them, but simply to fortify ours, so that those reading this may make their judgements on accurate accounts instead of quick judgements and misunderstandings.

[Black Hand]

Ok weve been at this for to long. So long as were on the same side here im fine.

The point that i'm trying to get across here was that the authers went a long way with the rather limited tools for the story, how it got complicated by myself or other people i'll never know...or care so long as they walk away with the messege i was trying to send.

DooM was limited to the writting tools that have been used in low class sci fi movies/games/books. this would make an auther pretty desperite for content outside the game box. (so to speak)This causes an angry horde of game fans that complain about how it derailed from the game.

Now I know that the third and fourth doom book go way beyound the bounds of "slight variation" but I still think they did a damn good job considering there position.