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netnomad312

Rearranging entries

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I was reading the /newstuff chronicles recently (I think it was #113), and I saw a comment in the review about DEUSF being obsolete. You can re-arrange the entries in Wintex, or so I read, so that you don't have to use DEUSF to install new sprites.

How is this done? See, a while back I made a green key sprites wad, and I've already merged it with doom2.wad. But I'm planning on including the sprites when I finish Tower of WAR. But last time I tried including sprites in a wad, the game crashed as soon as the key came into sight. Also, I have no idea how to sort entries in Wintex. How do I do that, and what way should I sort them so that the game doesn't crash while running a wad with sprites?

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Didn't that /newstuff chronicles thread have a link to where the sprites-in-WAD method is explained? For it to work with doom2.exe you need a DEH patch, as explained here:

http://www.doomworld.com/tutorials/fx2.shtml

You'll need both the patch for the new sprite names, and the SS_START and S_END markers. It's not a rearrangement, really; you add the markers and place the sprites between them. You can also use the DEUSF method that completes the PWAD entries (as opposed to inserting the new sprites in doom2.wad, a bad idea) especially if you want to do without the DEH patch. If you use the DEH method the PWAD can be used as is with any engine supporting DEH (original EXEs plus most source engines) and if you use the DEUSF method it will run with practically any engine. Either way doom2.exe users have to do a previous setup (DeHackEd or DEUSF.)

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I already had the sprites between SS_START and S_END in the other wad. But the game crashed when I saw one...

What I meant by rearranging the entries is: I'm sick of seeing a music entry, then a level entry, then two or three patch entries, then a music entry, etc... I'd like them a little more organized. But I never found any organization options in Wintex. Where the hell are they?

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netnomad312 said:

What I meant by rearranging the entries is: I'm sick of seeing a music entry, then a level entry, then two or three patch entries, then a music entry, etc... I'd like them a little more organized. But I never found any organization options in Wintex. Where the hell are they?


I had that problem too, I fixed it by repasting the finished entries into a new wad, to their specific categories, like hit the FLATS button and paste all your flat entries from the old disorganized wad into the new clean wad. Worked great!

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netnomad312 said:

What I meant by rearranging the entries is: I'm sick of seeing a music entry, then a level entry, then two or three patch entries, then a music entry, etc... I'd like them a little more organized. But I never found any organization options in Wintex. Where the hell are they?

Exactly what someone else thought:)

DeePsea's F7 - PWAD Lump Fixing tool is made specifically for rearranging PWAD entries. Basically a clicking process of lumps from the left listbox over to the right listbox. Play around and you should be able to get the hang of it without reading anything.

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Interesting. No good for me, though, because I use WadAuthor. And I've found, in the past, that after you edit a wad with DeePsea it puts some extra coding in there so that nothing else can edit it. I don't use DeePsea for editing because I prefer sector-based editing, but that's irrelevant; I only keep DeePsea around for its advanced checking system and to use its Texture Editor to see all the patches and/or textures on the screen instead of scrolling down a patch list in Wintex.

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netnomad312 said:

And I've found, in the past, that after you edit a wad with DeePsea it puts some extra coding in there so that nothing else can edit it.

Not true. All editors -can- edit it and that includes Wintex. In fact that's how to get around the one thing I found with WA that causes WA to screw up, although it shouldn't. [I've fixed this in the next release 11.75 which I'll post in a while.]

Thanks to Biffy for sending me a level that showed the SCRIPT problem [it only happens in HEXEN format levels].

DeePsea converts SCRIPTS to SCRIPT01/02, etc. The regular level edit saves it back as SCRIPTS if you do NOT enable the conversion. However, the tools are saving as SCRIPT01/02/etc. For whatever reason WA in Win9x blows up when it adds a SCRIPTS (sometimes 0 length) when the level has SCRIPT01/etc. On XP it doesn't blow up when you save. (Btw, I'm assuming you -DO NOT- have DeePsea open with the file, since that makes WA give an erroneous error message about invalid file or something like that when you open - easy fix just close DeePsea first).

Right now with 11.74 it's easy to fix this problem by manually using Wintex to rename the SCRIPT01 back to SCRIPTS after using the F7 tools [which proves that other editors can edit it] and then WA is happy again. IOW, the rearranging tool will work - besides that it makes backup anyway.

I don't use DeePsea for editing because I prefer sector-based editing, but that's irrelevant

Don't care if you use WA, but that again is not true. First off WA is really PREFAB editing and DeePsea has PREFABS just like WA - only more of them. So if you really preferred sector/PREFAB editing - it's there. All that statement says is that you never really bothered to check it out:)

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To organize the entries in a wad I use XWE, which allows you to drag then to wherever you want in the list.

It's not what you'd call automatic sorting, but at least you have complete control.
I'm gonna have a look at that tool Deep mentioned too...

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deep said:

First off WA is really PREFAB editing and DeePsea has PREFABS just like WA - only more of them. So if you really preferred sector/PREFAB editing - it's there.


Oh, I tried its prefab tools... but then I couldn't even join the vertices together. I couldn't grab one (yes, I was in vertex mode). Also, the grid options seem complicated, and it zooms too fast. Finally, you can't edit different types of objects at one time like you can in WA. You can use a filter (linedefs/vertexes/sectors/things) in WA, or you can use none.

At any rate, I haven't registered DeePsea and don't plan to. And of course I don't want all 800-or-less linedef levels, or my megawad really WILL be the smallest ever like Ultimate DooMer said in his review of my demo.

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netnomad312 said:
Oh, I tried its prefab tools... but then I couldn't even join the vertices together.

Well, that's a good one. That's one of DeePsea's strongest tools. DeePsea joins vertices and splits linedefs (if not on a vertex) just by dragging the vertex on top of the linedef. Watch the cursor icon - it gives direct visual feedback if you are on a vertex or on top of a line. Of course the grid can't be forcing a non-match and so on - IOW I assume people are actually trying to learn something:) Out of curiosity if you knew that DeePsea had PREFABS why did you imply that it didn't in the original post? There's also a post a bit down that claims exactly the opposite thing you do? Wonder who's right:))

I couldn't grab one (yes, I was in vertex mode).

There is no vertex you can't grab. For starters you can zoom up to 32 if you have a tight area. More experience issues. The other thing is that there are F5 MAP options which influence "grabbing" distance - not at all like WA here.

Also, the grid options seem complicated,

G and shift+G is complicated? Right:) If you mean the number keys you can program to any zoom you want, that's totally optional.

and it zooms too fast.

Uh what you say? It's smoother and slower than WA. Plus you can slow it down. F5 - Map Zoom delay. But I think you are thinking of WA or DETH/ZETH. No one has ever complained about ZOOM speed. Similarly map scrolling speed is adjustable.

Finally, you can't edit different types of objects at one time like you can in WA.

You mean you don't switch modes.

Guess you don't read posts or docs. You don't have to use a "filter" in DeePsea, but essentially that's a PIA as it is in WA. 99% of the time it's much faster to "filter" - and that's the name of the game - how fast can you get the objects "attention". If you don't "filter" you spend more time getting the object you want than editing the level. You can drag vertices and Things in any DeePsea mode/filter.

I forgot that XWE does it too. There are some safety checks lacking - just an observation, don't anyone panic.

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deep said:

Well, that's a good one. That's one of DeePsea's strongest tools. DeePsea joins vertices and splits linedefs (if not on a vertex) just by dragging the vertex on top of the linedef. Watch the cursor icon - it gives direct visual feedback if you are on a vertex or on top of a line. Of course the grid can't be forcing a non-match and so on - IOW I assume people are actually trying to learn something:)

Yeah, that's if I can actually drag the vertex. Still can't do it...

Out of curiosity if you knew that DeePsea had PREFABS why did you imply that it didn't in the original post? There's also a post a bit down that claims exactly the opposite thing you do? Wonder who's right:))

I'd forgotten it had prefabs. I hadn't even tried it in so long.

There is no vertex you can't grab. For starters you can zoom up to 32 if you have a tight area. More experience issues. The other thing is that there are F5 MAP options which influence "grabbing" distance - not at all like WA here.

Then why do I click on a vertex and try to drag it, and nothing happens? Is it more complicated than that? See, that's my point.

G and shift+G is complicated? Right:) If you mean the number keys you can program to any zoom you want, that's totally optional.

There's an option for that, huh? See, the huge options selection gave me that "what the hell?" kind of feeling. Too many options is just intimidating - especially when you don't know half the terminology yet.

Uh what you say? It's smoother and slower than WA. Plus you can slow it down. F5 - Map Zoom delay. But I think you are thinking of WA or DETH/ZETH. No one has ever complained about ZOOM speed. Similarly map scrolling speed is adjustable.

And when it automatically scrolls fast just when I move the mouse to the edge of the screen... is that an option?

You mean you don't switch modes.
Guess you don't read posts or docs. You don't have to use a "filter" in DeePsea, but essentially that's a PIA as it is in WA. 99% of the time it's much faster to "filter" - and that's the name of the game - how fast can you get the objects "attention". If you don't "filter" you spend more time getting the object you want than editing the level. You can drag vertices and Things in any DeePsea mode/filter.

Ah-hah. And how to I turn off the filters?
If I wanted to hook up linedefs by joining their vertices, and then I wanted to edit the new sector, I'd have to press an extra key first. Not much, yeah. But it gets annoying after a while.

I really don't care if you register or not, but I do care when you post inaccurate information that shows you don't really know how to use DeePsea.

Or don't care. That never was the topic anyway. I forgot that DeePsea had any prefab tools, a mistake on my part, and then whoops, the subject changed.

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Lobo said:

To organize the entries in a wad I use XWE, which allows you to drag then to wherever you want in the list.


Yeah, I use that, Control+U and Control+D can be used too, and you can mass select entries for this purpose (like a whole Map, or whatever.)

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netnomad312 said:
Yeah, that's if I can actually drag the vertex. Still can't do it...

First off, make sure you have a small grid - like 8 or less, otherwise you have to move 1/2 a grid size to move (look on bottom of screen) press G or Shift+G to change (something that you said was difficult (or use the toolbar buttons). You can also turn snap-to-grid off.

Next make sure you are NOT trying to do it like WA which I'm pretty sure is what you are doing. Hold the RIGHT mouse button and drag. Simple - just click on the Mouse-Keyboard shortcuts toolbar and it's all there.

I'd forgotten it had prefabs. I hadn't even tried it in so long.

Not a problem, but don't go off as if you actually know what you are talking about (try them again and see how they work vs WA). It's no more complicated than that - you actually have to have an open mind and RTFM. There's a boatload of mouse & key-board shortcuts, but one has to actually -read- & try. See that's my point:)

The default options suit most people. Sure they can be overwhelming, but if you actually got more advanced level editing experience you'd see why some of them need tinkering with at times. Ditto for the single Linedef dialog that takes care of ALL options vs having to jump around "raw" vs "edit" dialogs.

It hardly makes sense to complain that "options" make for a problem, especially when you have little idea why there are there. Each and every one of them have occasional uses. However, they can all just be ignored for starting out. No need to actually set them, unless you come across a certain situation.

For example, normally you want different size linedefs dragged on top of one another to merge and split automatically (yes that's very useful if you could do that). But there are times when that is not desired. So what you do is change the setup temporarily to let you drag a linedef on top of another without it automatically splitting and merging. Now what would you do if there was no option to disable this?

And when it automatically scrolls fast just when I move the mouse to the edge of the screen... is that an option?

If the map scrolls fast just when you move the mouse to the edge of the screen, you are not using DeePsea. DeePsea doesn't do that -unless- you configured it to do so. Normally the cursor changes at the edge and you press the left mouse button to scroll (F5 mouse click moves map). OTOH, DETH/ZETH does exactly what you describe and I think you are confused. [Even DETH can be adjusted though, just set the step size to a smaller value] Either one is way faster than having to go to the scroll bars. Of course cursor keys work too.

In DeePsea the speed of the scrolling is 100% controllable. First you can set the step size smaller (as in DETH.ZETH), secondly you can set a time delay to wait before doing consecutive scrolls. Already explained this as well as the ZOOM - but you are hell bent and determined to not listen and just argue:)

Ah-hah. And how to I turn off the filters?

RTFM

If I wanted to hook up linedefs by joining their vertices, and then I wanted to edit the new sector, I'd have to press an extra key first. Not much, yeah. But it gets annoying after a while.

LOL - I can point to a lot more "annoying" steps in WA just to do simple things. In the time it takes you to "focus" on a sector, you can press the key and be in edit mode anyway. It's the way it is. Time it someday on a level with many sectors in an area and see how much you have to concentrate.

For examples of "extra" steps: selecting multiple objects - in WA you have to press a key +mouse click, in DeePsea just click. The very fact that you can't linedraw make you use all sorts of other gimmicks for the simplest things. Not saying you can't just that it takes much longer to get to the final result. Is this a big deal? I wouldn't even bring it up, but you seem to think that switching modes is such a big deal:)

Plus have you ever bothered to see the difference in DeePsea's zooming vs WA zooming? Look at how the map automatically centers depending on the location of the cursor. Just that little features saves you gobs more time than a key press - no need to scroll to get the object into full view.

I'm not trying to move you from WA, but don't assume that the rules are the same in DeePsea as they are in WA. All editors require one to learn their method of operation. Some people just don't want to/can't learn something different - fine - just don't pretend you know. Assume maybe that you are just not doing it the right way and that maybe, just maybe it might help if you took a peek at the online help:) And this post is waayyy too long. Argh

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Ah. You mentioned line drawing. Now, yeah I remember that DeePsea has prefab tools, but the focus still seemed to be on line drawing. But I don't want to debate that. I'm not pretending anything - I just forgot that DeePsea had prefab tools. It's called a mistake.

All editors require one to learn their method of operation. Some people just don't want to/can't learn something different

That's not the way it was with me. I never started with WA; in fact I had DeePsea for a year or so before I ever used WA. But did I ever build a working level? Noooooo. Couldn't figure the damn thing out. I tried the tutorial, still couldn't do it right. I don't remember why, that was so long ago.

In the case of WA, I downloaded it early December '02, figured it out in five minutes. Go figure...

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Keep trying with DeepSea Nomad, once you get used to it, it'll save you hours. I have no cash at the moment so I had to jack it in after doing the first 800 linedefs of each map, but it's extremely useful.

The options were too much for me at first as well, and it took me longer to figure out than WA - but it really is so much more powerful. The line-splitting tool saved me so much time with complicated overlapping lighting and architecture - it takes much longer doing that kind of stuff in other editors, because you have to split the lines manually and make new sectors etc, etc, Also you can reduce how much disk space your map takes by merging sectors which are remote from eachother but have the same attributes, and there's lots of other features indigenous to DS.

Just keep trying at it. Oh yeah, and with the vertex thing, they don't move in the same way as WA: As far as I can tell, in DeepSea you have to move the cursor 1 grid block to move the vertex one grid block - this felt a bit wierd to me too.

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ToXiCFLUFF said:

As far as I can tell, in DeepSea you have to move the cursor 1 grid block to move the vertex one grid block - this felt a bit wierd to me too.


When you move anything in DeePsea, it "jumps" according to how you have the grid set (very useful IMO). If your grid is at 128, things move in 128 blocks, if its at 64 they move in 64 blocks etc. For more precise moving, reduce the grid to a smaller size, or toggle off the "snap to grid" using the "/" key (the info bar at the bottom confirms whether snapping is on or off). When snapping is off, anything can be moved in single unit increments regardless of how the grid is set.

One thing I like about the snapping feature is that, if you move something in vertex mode, and select a bunch of vertices, they each snap to the grid, squaring up any accidental odd shapes (one to be careful of though - remember the "/" key if you don't want this to happen). In lines and sectors modes, the line lengths are preserved, so vertices don't move around relative to each other to be snapped to the grid. In sector mode, things in the sectors (monsters etc) move with the sectors. All good stuff, and giving a variety of options of how you might want to move parts of your map around.

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netnomad312 said:

I'd forgotten it had prefabs. I hadn't even tried it in so long.
xxxxxxxx
Or don't care. That never was the topic anyway. I forgot that DeePsea had any prefab tools, a mistake on my part, and then whoops, the subject changed.

WTF? We had a discussion about this just last week. We also discussed filters and selecting, comparing WA with DeePsea. Well, I wrote the facts down for you at least, then assumed you'd read them.

netnomad312 said:

And when it automatically scrolls fast just when I move the mouse to the edge of the screen... is that an option?

Here's the deal. When you double left click to start line-drawing mode, the screen will scroll if you try to move the cursor off of the map. You have to exit line draw mode...hit ESC...and you are back in "normal" editing mode and can move the cursor anywhere.

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Nomad, you say that moving the mouse around in Deepsea causes everything to move too fast? Try to hitting the [ key to slow it down, and the ] to speed it back up.
T = Thing Mode
L = Linedef Mode
V = Vertex Mode
S = Sector Mode

Just so you know.

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netnomad312 said:

Biffy: the filter discussion? That was this thread. Read back...

www.doomworld.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13700

Pay attention:) and I said in THIS thread

Guess you don't read posts or docs

You never mentioned you were were scrolling while DRAWING, but Biffy is probably correct (thanks Biff) when he figured that is what you were doing. Even there though, you can slow it down using the time delay in F5 - map options.

However, you can also change the zoom while drawing -or- better yet just press the HOME key, so it's easy to get your orientation back, unlike some other nameless editors:)

Speed is relative. Like anything else, once one gets used to things, what used to be considered fast, becomes slow. And that's why there are both timing and step -options- for scrolling. Experience counts.

And that is really what all this boils down to - whether it's an editor or some other tool - familiarity. This is a big stumbling block and not just in Doom editing. Listen to the Mac vs PC debates:)

So did the vertexes now drag or not after reading the explanations?

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Look. I don't want to debate this anymore. All I know and care about is what worked for me. And I know when to walk out on a debate; one clue is that a three-month WAD editor isn't going to "beat" the apparent author of DeePsea (that is who you are, correct? in the first post you said you'd be posting a new version...). Bottom line: I've chosen my editor, and it isn't yours.

Oh, that's right. Your issue, apparently, is not that I use DeePsea over WadAuthor; it's that I put out correct info. If you care so strongly about one person putting out mistaken information, well I suggest you find something better to do with your time. I'm sorry to have to put it so bluntly to you, but there just ain't another way to do it.

This discussion is over. (Geez, I wish I could just suddenly close my topics...)

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