Question about HOMs and Node Builders

[Job]

A map I made had a HOM in WA. I don't know why, there were no errors and I reduced the number of vertices so that there were no visplane issues, etc. (I assume having excessive vertices can do that) Anyway, is the HOM something that is due to WA having a junky internal nodebuilder? If so, is there a way to rememdy this?

[Searcher]

For the most part HOM is a function of not having a texture where the game is looking for one.

To many stairs in view at once will also cause it, among other things.

If you are concerned about your nodes builder be sure and use the most up to date one you can get. BSP 5 would be a good choice.

[Grazza]

I used glBSPX 2.00 to rebuild normal and GL modes on your map, and that didn't solve the problem. (It did solve some problems in OpenGL Legacy though.)

[Job]

I have BSP (the latest one in the utils section) but to be honest, I'm not sure how to use it. Also, what you mentioned about the stairs rings a bell. I had a fairly small pit with stairs on one end and on the other as well. Maybe that caused the HOM? I'm just surprised there is one when I got no errors in the error-check...there's really nothing I can do about it.

[Searcher]

It usually takes something over 12 stairs in view to cause any concern, so that may not be it. If you want to send me the map I will run my error checker on it. Email in profile.

[DarkWolf]

Zennode works pretty well for both Software and GL ports. For JDoom, and other ports that support GL Nodes, go a head and use a builder that supports that.

[Job]

Okay, cool. I'm at work right now, but I'll e-mail it asap. BTW, I have two parallel sets of stairs that are 7 steps each.

[Job]

Grazza said:

I used glBSPX 2.00 to rebuild normal and GL modes on your map, and that didn't solve the problem. (It did solve some problems in OpenGL Legacy though.)

Man, this is one perplexing problem here. I mean, I tried to make that map tight and error free. : / I think I'll blame WA.

[Pate]

WA's node builder is really, really crappy. Use ZenNode, the destroyer of OpenGL holes. It works especially well with Legacy.

[Job]

Could you tell me how to use a nodebuilder, exactly? I'm not sure. I've got BSP installed but I'm not sure how to use it.

[Grazza]

Vulg@r said:

I mean, I tried to make that map tight and error free. : / I think I'll blame WA.

Nah, blame Legacy. Its OpenGL mode seems incredibly fussy - much more so than jDoom.

Vulg@r said:

Could you tell me how to use a nodebuilder, exactly? I'm not sure. I've got BSP installed but I'm not sure how to use it.

I'm no expert on this (to say the least), but as I mentioned, I used glBSPX 2.00. It is a Windows program and quite user-friendly. It can build both normal and GL nodes.

[Job]

Cool, thanks!

[ReX]

Vulg@r said:

Could you tell me how to use a nodebuilder, exactly?

Using WadAuthor you can either:

1. Opt to use an external nodebuilder and point WadAuthor to it (Tools, Options, Files). You'll need to use the appropriate command for the nodebuilding utility.
2. Opt to use no nodebuilder. When you save your map you'll have to run your nodebuilder on it outside of WadAuthor. Refer to your nodebuilder for the proper commands.
3. Use the internal nodebuilder, which you're using and which I believe is the default.

Btw, I've rarely had any problems with WadAuthor's internal nodebuilder.

[DarkWolf]

Most internal node builders don't present problems until you put non-90/45 degree angles in your map.

[deep]

DarkWolf said:

Most internal node builders don't present problems until you put non-90/45 degree angles in your map.

That's correct. Zennode is probably the best for LEGACY though.

GLBSP has some serious issues. If someone does use this, be very careful that it does what you think it's doing. Took me by surprise.

It has this really weird default of using the existing nodes to build GL_NODES - even if you've modified the map. Needless to say, that creates some weird results. Yes the options can override this, but the defaults should never have been set up like that.

The best way to use GLBSP is to use ANOTHER nodebuilder (like ZENNODE) first and THEN let it use ZENNODE's data to create GL_NODES. Of course that's only for those ports that need these. Otherwise don't bother with GLBSP.

[netnomad312]

Vulg@r said:

I have BSP (the latest one in the utils section) but to be honest, I'm not sure how to use it.

BSP gave me a lot of grief. The problem is that you're going to need to run it from the folder you save in, and for me (using Doom95), that created problems with the folder names. I had to make a batch file which copied tmp.wad to whatever file I wanted... I don't use it anymore.

Then Vulg@r said:

I'm just surprised there is one when I got no errors in the error-check...

WA's checking system only checks for missing texture HOMs. One other cause of them is visplane errors; that happened in an old wad of mine. See, you can only have so many linedefs visible at a time, then Doom just gives up and shows a HOM instead. I've heard that some older versions would just crash. But WA doesn't sense visplane errors.

Pate said:

WA's node builder is really, really crappy.

It's never failed me... why do you think it's so crappy?

[deep]

netnomad312 said:

It's never failed me... why do you think it's so crappy?

Not all that bad, but it is the OLD original BSP from way back with the "wrong side" bug - although not all levels show this problem. Plus it's slow - although todays machines make up for noticing this too much, but you will on a large level. IOW you'll be ahead not using it.

[Pate]

WA's node builder is really, really crappy.

It's never failed me... why do you think it's so crappy?

Because it creates nodes (or segs, not exactly sure which ones) that are erroneous. These errors don't show up when you use stock Doom (because had they shown up, John would have fixed them), but OpenGl ports behave just plain wrong.

It's annoying to dl new wads, check the text file that says "made with WadAuthor" and sure enough half the wall textures are missing. Run wad through ZenNode -> all problems fixed.

[netnomad312]

Argh... source ports again... see, in that same /newstuff chronicles, my first wad was reviewed, and the reviewer (I think it was Linguica actually) said that I was missing a texture on a door and that there's a room you get trapped in early with no way out. Can someone tell me where?? I think it's the source port Ling was using.

I know I'm going to get a lot of flames for this, but screw source ports. I've been making my levels in plain vanilla Doom ever since I started, and I'm not going to use another node builder because some ports screw up with WA's. But BSP gave me a lot of grief, so I'm not using it anymore. Tell me, does Zenode screw up when you try to refrence wads with big folder names? My path is c:\program files\doom ii for windows 95\, and BSP screwed up. I had to end up saving in the WA folder then make a separate batch file which copied tmp.wad to the Dooom II folder. And that's just for that one wad.

[Pate]

You are of course free to make levels for vanilla Doom, but the truth is that most of the people use source ports. (I'd guess something like 70%-90% of people) That's the same reason I have to make a Windows version of Why even though I really wouldn't want to: most people use Windows and not Linux.

ZenNode should work with any path name (haven't tried that though). Note, however that if your paths have spaces, you must put them in quotes, like this:

zennode "c:\foo bar\path name\blargh\mylevel.wad".

[DarkWolf]

I usually don't hold Node errors against maps made for vanilla, but if you want to be safe Zennode should clear up most problems.

[netnomad312]

You are of course free to make levels for vanilla Doom, but the truth is that most of the people use source ports. (I'd guess something like 70%-90% of people)

I've seen them in action and I don't like them. Yes they have a couple of perks. But then they have really "cool" new features. I think one engine (was it zdoom?) had a "water" feature. Come on. That is not Doom. It's wonderful that so many people improved on the source, but many wads were just meant to be played in vanilla Doom. There are so many wads in the archives that don't use any source ports. I really don't see why people have to play my wads in source ports anyway. I may actually just leave the "screwed-up" nodes in there, forcing players to abandon their fancy features and just play the damned game.

At any rate, I'll consider Zenode. But if I have to make some crummy batch file or save my wads in a different folder than I play them from, I won't use it again.

[Amaster]

netnomad312 said:

I really don't see why people have to play my wads in source ports anyway. I may actually just leave the "screwed-up" nodes in there, forcing players to abandon their fancy features and just play the damned game.

Some of us are using WinXP. I certainly am not going to install win 98 just to play your wad.
I also build for vanilla DooM, and I use WA, and I have had problems with it's internal node builder (invisible walls and such). I ran my wad through BSP and everything was fine. I also got the HOM from too many linedefs in view, and BSP took care of that also (to a point, eventually nothing but a source port will solve VPO problems).

[DarkWolf]

netnomad312 said:

I may actually just leave the "screwed-up" nodes in there, forcing players to abandon their fancy features and just play the damned game.

Oh no, please don't do that! That would mean I'd have to take the < 5 seconds to run it through Zennode myself.

[toxicfluff]

Netnomad: It only takes half a minute max (unless it's really detailed) to run a map through Zennode, so you might as well do it. There's no point in alienating potential players of your maps by not taking the tiny amount of time to do this.

If you prefer vanilla Doom that's fine, but don't force your preferences on others. Many people regard source ports as a pretty good thing - even if 320x240 res and lack of water was what made Doom what it is, I'm certainly not gonna boot up Doom2.exe with no sound (Win2k) to play a map.

[netnomad312]

Wait, now I'm confused. I thought Zenode just built the nodes, not ran the level too. Can't you turn that off?

[Ichor]

Yes, Zennode does only make the nodes (and the reject). It's can't actually play the map.

[netnomad312]

I tried Zennode, and I have a problem. I tried to test it out on an old wad of mine, stairs.wad. But when I played the wad, Doom crashed and gave me some freaky error message.

This was my external node build command in WA (which I guessed would work):
C:\Program Files\Doom II for Windows 95\ZenNode-1.1.0\win32\ZenNode.exe $_Wadfile

The Zennode program never gave me any errors... but also, I never saw it run! A window popped up and then just disappeared, and I never got to see the text. I get the feeling that Zennode just didn't do anything and that there were no nodes (or else bad ones) to work with when I tested the wad.

[toxicfluff]

Right, here's your problem I think: You need to specify an output file.

E.g. my command is: C:\Games\DooM2\WadAuthor\Zennode\win32\ZenNode.exe
And my arguments are: $_Wadfile -o $_Wadfile

So I'm guessing you just need the -o $_Wadfile part added on at the end. Hope that helps you out.