3 small changes to the gameplay that would make the games better?

[Zirbiss]

The gameplay formula of DOOM & DOOM 2 is close to perfect imo. But a few things always comes to mind that i wish were different and that i feel would make the games play a bit better.

My take.

• Revenant fireballs should emit a sound when it's close to the player so the player knows it's about to hit and can act on it.
  Reason: Because it's annoying as heck to be killed by a fireball you had no idea was even chasing you. Feels unfair at times.
   
• Lost Souls should have reduced hp so they are more likely to be killed with a single shotgun blast.
  Reason: I feel they should have about the same hp as an Imp as they are kinda small and can be really annoying if in big numbers. Clearing rooms with lots of Lost Souls would be more fun if they were a bit easier to kill. IMO
   
• Pistol firing speed slightly increased.
  Reason: So that using the pistol is a more fun viable option until you get the chaingun. When getting the chaingun the pistol is pretty much useless.
  (It's not the case with the shotgun / super shotgun as the shotgun is still more viable at distance and use less ammo.)
   

Any takes?

Edited August 28 by Zirbiss

[baja blast rd.]

30 minutes ago, Zirbiss said:

Any takes?

 

Okay: 

 

30 minutes ago, Zirbiss said:

Revenant fireballs should emit a sound when it's close to the player so the player knows it's about to hit and can act on it.
 Reason? Because it's annoying as heck to be killed by a fireball you had no idea was even chasing you. Feels unfair at times.

 

I find being surprised by revenant missiles fun. 

 

 

30 minutes ago, Zirbiss said:

Lost Souls should have reduced hp so they are more likely to be killed with a single shotgun blast.

 

If I lowered lost soul HP, which is not a bad idea imo, I would make PEs more dangerous to compensate, like by having them spit two per attack instead of one. PEs being useful depends on a lot on lost souls being credible nuisances.

 

One good thing to keep in mind is that the RL is good for clearing out bunches of lost souls (just avoid getting face-rocketed, and don't let "fear of face rocketing" prevent you from using an option). 

 

30 minutes ago, Zirbiss said:

It's not the case with the shotgun / super shotgun as the shotgun is still more viable at distance and use less ammo.

 

Wow that sounds like an interesting topic for a thread. 😈

[Herr Dethnout]

Just now, Zirbiss said:

Revenant fireballs should emit a sound when it's close to the player so the player knows it's about to hit and can act on it.
Reason? Because it's annoying as heck to be killed by a fireball you had no idea was even chasing you. Feels unfair at times.

Never annoyed me, maybe because I focus on Revenants and try to be close or stay moving to avoid it firing rockets lol.

 

Just now, Zirbiss said:

Lost Souls should have reduced hp so they are more likely to be killed with a single shotgun blast.
Reason: I feel they should have about the same hp as an Imp as they are kinda small and can be really annoying if in big numbers. Clearing rooms with lots of Lost Souls would be more fun if they were a bit easier to kill. IMO

100% on this, Lost Souls are by far my most 2nd most hated enemy (PE being first for... well is not obvious?), but I think it should have the same hp as Zombieman.

 

Just now, Zirbiss said:

Pistol firing speed slightly increased.
Reason: So that using the pistol is a more fun viable option until you get the chaingun. When getting the chaingun the pistol is pretty much useless.
It's not the case with the shotgun / super shotgun as the shotgun is still more viable at distance and use less ammo.

100% this, like Doom 64 (iirc it has a slightly faster firing speed on pistol), or Eviternity. I think to this to work the Chaingun should have less accuracy and take up more bullets, so it will like the Shotgun/SSG of bullet based guns. :P

[DankMetal]

53 minutes ago, baja blast rd. said:

If I lowered lost soul HP, which is not a bad idea imo, I would make PEs more dangerous to compensate, like by having them spit two per attack instead of one. PEs being useful depends on a lot on lost souls being credible nuisances.

That already exist in doom 64, lol. Pain elementals in that game are the real shit.

[esselfortium]

I can't disagree with any of these. Being able to hear projectiles near you when they've been fired from far away is something I've often wished for as well.

[ShallowB]

Cyberdemon should have less health and do less damage. 
 

I think everyone agrees he’s a really boring boss, but a potentially interesting high-tier enemy.  The problem is he’s an absolute damage sponge and can two-shot the player even with a Megasphere, which often makes him either really boring or really frustrating depending on how the map uses him.  Or maybe I just suck lol

[JBerg]

The infinitely tall actors were always the most annoying part of the classic dooms for me. 

[Lucius Wooding]

-Instead of the radsuit being a timed powerup, it should be able to absorb a certain amount of damage from hurtfloors before running out.

 

-Leaky radsuit shouldn't be a thing, 20 damage hurtfloors are already bad.

 

-Doors shouldn't crush stuff underneath them.

[banjiepixel]

2 hours ago, Zirbiss said:

Revenant fireballs should emit a sound when it's close to the player so the player knows it's about to hit and can act on it.
Reason? Because it's annoying as heck to be killed by a fireball you had no idea was even chasing you. Feels unfair at times.

 

Being aware of your surroundings is one of the most important skills and a warning sound would be one less reason to actually pay attention to things happening around you. It would be probably better to just reduce the damage of the revenant fireball to baron fireball's levels or maybe even more to make the surprise revenant fireball to the face less annoying and survivable.

 

2 hours ago, Zirbiss said:

Lost Souls should have reduced hp so they are more likely to be killed with a single shotgun blast.
Reason: I feel they should have about the same hp as an Imp as they are kinda small and can be really annoying if in big numbers. Clearing rooms with lots of Lost Souls would be more fun if they were a bit easier to kill. IMO

 

Only if they get more attack power in exchange. How about half the hp and double the damage? Seems fair, right?

 

2 hours ago, Zirbiss said:

Pistol firing speed slightly increased.
Reason: So that using the pistol is a more fun viable option until you get the chaingun. When getting the chaingun the pistol is pretty much useless.
It's not the case with the shotgun / super shotgun as the shotgun is still more viable at distance and use less ammo.

 

One tic of extra speed give it nicely slighty more stopping power while still feeling like weak starting weapon. Two tics of extra speed do make pistol starting pretty damn smooth but makes the gap between pistol and chaingun dangerously small. Pistol will still lack alot of Chaingun's stopping power but it will be rather close removing uniqueness between these two weapons. At that point it becomes probably a good idea to speed up also the Chaingun and that can be in many ways problematic.

 

And one thing that really would help to fix Chaingun making Pistol useless could be adding a cooldown to it like Plasmagun has. Just needing to potentially commit one extra bullet is too small drawback for all the advantages that Chaingun has over Pistol. Well balanced pistol functions generally as a ammo saving tool requiring more precision and patience but also less commitment than the Chaingun. This is why adding cooldown can be pretty critical change, with or without giving Chaingun more speed.

 

And on that note, the biggest issue of pistol isn't speed, it's the general sluggishness caused more by it's cooldown that becomes very important factor when attempting accurate tap shots. Just remove that cooldown and we have viable weapon atleast what comes to it's responsiveness.

[baja blast rd.]

1 hour ago, Lucius Wooding said:

-Doors shouldn't crush stuff underneath them.

 

Thank you for reminding me how to use shotgunner hordes while keeping ammo in check.

 

 

[Ravendesk]

2 minutes ago, baja blast rd. said:

Thank you for reminding me how to use shotgunner hordes while keeping ammo in check.

you absolutely have to play 1x1 map 18 now

[QuaketallicA]

3 hours ago, Zirbiss said:

The gameplay formula of DOOM & DOOM 2 is close to perfect imo. But a few things always comes to mind that i wish were different and that i feel would make the games play a bit better.

My take.

• Revenant fireballs should emit a sound when it's close to the player so the player knows it's about to hit and can act on it.
  Reason: Because it's annoying as heck to be killed by a fireball you had no idea was even chasing you. Feels unfair at times.
   
• Lost Souls should have reduced hp so they are more likely to be killed with a single shotgun blast.
  Reason: I feel they should have about the same hp as an Imp as they are kinda small and can be really annoying if in big numbers. Clearing rooms with lots of Lost Souls would be more fun if they were a bit easier to kill. IMO
   
• Pistol firing speed slightly increased.
  Reason: So that using the pistol is a more fun viable option until you get the chaingun. When getting the chaingun the pistol is pretty much useless.
  (It's not the case with the shotgun / super shotgun as the shotgun is still more viable at distance and use less ammo.)
   

Any takes?

 

I was just playing Eviternity and that wad did those very changes (except the Revenant one). It made the pistol slightly faster, more akin to Duke 3D pistol, and Lost souls are killable with a single shotgun blast. I agree all your ideas would be nice. 

 

Personally though, I like the inherent crappiness of the vanilla pistol, because it makes lower tier enemies (e.g. Pinky, Shotgunner, Imp) more challenging if all you have is a pistol and nothing else. Especially if you're backed in a corner. 

 

You're right about long-term once you get literally anything else, the pistol is kind of useless. What if the pistol was like a Desert Eagle or a Smith and Wesson? Slow-firing, low max ammo quantity, but heavy damage. Something like Half-Life's revolver or Halo CE's pistol.

[QuaketallicA]

1 hour ago, JBerg said:

The infinitely tall actors were always the most annoying part of the classic dooms for me. 

 

Yes, but it goes both ways. You can also chainsaw Caco's and Pain Elementals who are flying above you. Which is handy.

[Redneb27]

3 hours ago, Zirbiss said:

• Lost Souls should have reduced hp so they are more likely to be killed with a single shotgun blast.
  Reason: I feel they should have about the same hp as an Imp as they are kinda small and can be really annoying if in big numbers. Clearing rooms with lots of Lost Souls would be more fun if they were a bit easier to kill. IMO

I think they should be very slightly easier to kill, maybe at chaingunner hp. The worst feeling in the world imo is super shotgunning a lost soul and it not dying.

[SupremeBioVizier]

The revenant should have always been able to use a jet pack after a few seconds after engagement in which you could steal when it became defeated in which you could use said jetpack for a short time until it malfunctioned...but that would only work if the level needed it...ya

[Lila Feuer]

Zombieman rolling 1-8 damage like the console ports so sometimes he hurts more, makes him less likely to be ignored when featured with other monsters.

Lost Soul with imp health like the console ports, as aforementioned sponginess.

Pain Elemental bites the player when too close, solving the cheese tactic of denying her spawns.

Revenant fires two missiles at once to match his firing frame, you heard me, it can either double normal missiles or seeker missiles or mix and match with each attack.

[Reigada]

3 hours ago, Zirbiss said:

The gameplay formula of DOOM & DOOM 2 is close to perfect imo. But a few things always comes to mind that i wish were different and that i feel would make the games play a bit better.

My take.

• Revenant fireballs should emit a sound when it's close to the player so the player knows it's about to hit and can act on it.
  Reason: Because it's annoying as heck to be killed by a fireball you had no idea was even chasing you. Feels unfair at times.
   
• Lost Souls should have reduced hp so they are more likely to be killed with a single shotgun blast.
  Reason: I feel they should have about the same hp as an Imp as they are kinda small and can be really annoying if in big numbers. Clearing rooms with lots of Lost Souls would be more fun if they were a bit easier to kill. IMO
   
• Pistol firing speed slightly increased.
  Reason: So that using the pistol is a more fun viable option until you get the chaingun. When getting the chaingun the pistol is pretty much useless.
  (It's not the case with the shotgun / super shotgun as the shotgun is still more viable at distance and use less ammo.)
   

Any takes?

 

i agree with the lost soul take, if you leave pain elementals alive for too long you're going to waste a lot of ammo killing the spawned lost souls

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

1 hour ago, QuaketallicA said:

What if the pistol was like a Desert Eagle or a Smith and Wesson? Slow-firing, low max ammo quantity, but heavy damage. Something like Half-Life's revolver or Halo CE's pistol.

I think id could have made a really cool powerful pistol. I would have been stuck deciding between:

 

-Powerful pistol with very long reload but unlimited ammo (would create balancing issues though).

 

-Really powerful pistol with limited ammo and long reload time (would cause balancing issues and outclass the "higher tier" weapons).

 

-Pea shooter with unlimited ammo (unsatisfying as shit).

 

-Some kind of burst fire pistol (too similar to the chaingun).

 

So many discussions over the years about the poor pistol. I think the Eviternity pistol is about as good as you can do without screwing up the balance. The weapon at least deserved a cooler and more imaginative sprite if nothing else. But I feel the same way that you do about the pistol - it can be fun and tense fighting off weaker enemies with it. 

[Roofi]

Here are my three gameplay tweaks in order to improve player's experience :

 

- Lost souls can now go through walls.

 

- All weapons have recoil.

 

-  The radsuit may leaks on all kind of dangerous liquids.

[riktoi]

It could be rather interesting to make the pistol fire high damage, small, reasonably fast projectiles. Make it a sniping weapon with an unique bullet type with a low max ammo count.

[Shepardus]

7 hours ago, QuaketallicA said:

 

Yes, but it goes both ways. You can also chainsaw Caco's and Pain Elementals who are flying above you. Which is handy.

Since when?

 

re: revenant missiles - See GOODWAD and its "QOL WAD."

[Maribo]

8 hours ago, QuaketallicA said:

Yes, but it goes both ways. You can also chainsaw Caco's and Pain Elementals who are flying above you. Which is handy.

No, you can't, at least not in any port that properly mimics vanilla behavior.

 

Anyway, make cacodemon bite take longer to wind-up (you can get bit near instantaneously while chainsawing them and it sucks).

[TheSlipgateStudios]

I only want one thing from Doom 2, and that is better level design. 

[Vile]

• Faster weapon switching.  I feel that every wad or mod using this has made me wish that the original game had it (like Wolf3d and Quake, the two games between Doom)
• Make berserk damage less variable.  I'd argue many damage calculations could be adjusted to be less silly but it would be more fun if berserk punching was more reliable.
• Delete spectres Add a Quad damage powerup or some variant of it.  Some mods have this but I think they'd enable some amusing slaughter scenarios. 

[riktoi]

1 hour ago, TheSlipgateStudios said:

I only want one thing from Doom 2, and that is better level design. 

 

You'd be surprised just how many levels there are beyond DOOM2.WAD. Shocked, even

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

2 hours ago, TheSlipgateStudios said:

I only want one thing from Doom 2, and that is better level design. 

Honestly, I'm very impressed by the quality given the technological and time constraints the levels were made under.

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

- Chaingun to shoot faster

- Faster weapon swap

- Altered plasma shooting sound (if that doesn't count as a "gameplay" change, then my third pick is to let hell knights and barons infight)

[aRottenKomquat]

The only change I would make is to have weapon/ammo usage be like Heretic. That is, no two weapons use the same type of ammo. In Doom, once you get the chaingun you are not likely to EVER touch the pistol again, but with the Heretic analogs, you very well might use the crystal wand at times so you can spare your dragon claw ammo. Similar story with the plasma gun and BFG. The plasma gun is possibly the ultimate weapon in Doom but it doesn't get used that much it because players want to save cells for the BFG.

[Noiser]

I swear to god, on my next gameplay mod I will double the hp of the lost soul just out of pure stubbornness lol

Edited August 28 by Noiser

[Raith138]

Lower lost soul health.

Make a small cooldown for archvile revives.

Slightly lower super shotgun reload