WTF?!?!

[DooMBoy]

OK, this blows. I'm doing my own version of E1M6, and I'm getting damn near finished. The end is a lot like the one in the original E1M6, only with some slight differences. Anyway, I made the sectors where the enemies hide, and the ceiling goes all the way up when you hit the switch, and they rush and attack you etc etc. Right after I did this and saved, Deepsea screwed my level up. Well, not entirely, just some sections of it, mainly a lot of impassible walls were converted into two side lines with no main textures. Now I gotta go back and fix them when I should be adding weapons, ammo, enemies, and items to my map. Would someone please explain to me why this happened? BTW, it's not the first time it's occured. >:(

[Use]

Deepsea has only done this once, it had swapped all the attributes of my sectors, their textures, heights, everything. One part of the map had some sector references fucked up. I have no idea what caused it or why.
Since I'm here, another frequent problem I get with deepsea after saving or testing the level from within deepsea is a big ugly white win3.11 error box saying Deepsea has caused a fatal exception in GDI.exe and then it crashes HARD, very hard.

my specs (in case deep has any idea):

win98se
224mb ram
pIII 450 Mhz

I never run other prgrams while editing.

the only programs in ctrl-del-alt manager are:

Explorer
Systray
Point32
Starter

I'm using deepsea 11.74

[Kid Airbag]

I think this bug has something to do with deleting sectors wrong. I think if you delete a sector by highlighting all of its lines and then deleting as opposed to just clicking the whole sector, this happens.

[Use]

Good point, because one of my older editors does the same shit.


Edit: in fact it was my first question on the dw forums ;)

[pming]

Hiya.

DeepSea does that wierd "switch 1 sided lines to 2 sided" on me every now and then too. And before you ask, no, I havn't emailed sbsoftware about it...there is no point. Even if he could find a bug, and fix it, he'd charge money for the bug fix. >:( I'm still using 11.65, and don't plan on upgradeing. Worst part is, using the "Fix all Errors" doesn't even work because it reads the lines as "2 sided", so no error. Wierd.

At least it's nice to see that it's not just my computer set up anyway. :)

Win98
Dual PIII 600's
512 SDRAM
DeepSea 11.65

[Graf Zahl]

pming said:

Even if he could find a bug, and fix it, he'd charge money for the bug fix. >:(

You know, this is why this guy never ever will get any money from me. I like DeepSea but as a matter of principle I don't support this kind of business tactics.

[999cop]

Deepsea = the crap

[DOOM Anomaly]

This happens a lot to me to and stuff, I just assumed it was due to my poor mapping. :P

[Brad_tilf]

It could be the internal nodes builder as opposed to the map editor itself. Try using an external nodes builder as opposed to the built in one - it will probably fix your problem. I recommend zennode or the newest version of bsp that you can find and will work with your computer.

[deep]

Use3D said:
Deepsea has only done this once, it had swapped all the attributes of my sectors, their textures, heights, everything. One part of the map had some sector references fucked up. I have no idea what caused it or why.

First time I've ever heard of this. Could be a byproduct of large level support - but I don't think so. Make sure you did not have ALL sectors selected when a change was made. Some people have done that. Ditto for switching 1-sided to 2-sided. There's no way that's possible unless the user selected the line(s). Never heard of that one either.

Not related to saving for the "swapping" mentioned. You'd have to see the code to see why it can't be there. Could be some other step that you can't remember, but if you can't remember then I can't help either:)

Since I'm here, another frequent problem I get with deepsea after saving or testing the level from within deepsea is a big ugly white win3.11 error box saying Deepsea has caused a fatal exception in GDI.exe and then it crashes HARD, very hard.

Now that one I do know about - but don't know why. Only thing I know is that if you turn off the toolbars, it doesn't happen very often (if at all). And if you run PSP or play test it happens more often. It also happens way MORE with 3DFX drivers.

I see nothing wrong in the toolbar code. And I suspect it's related to Win98 and/or the port. For example, JDOOM used to wipe out memory areas and then this can crash DeePsea. Remember, Win98 has poor memory protection. Haven't heard anything like this happening in XP (GDI error), although I have had problems after I've tested. IOW, the various ports are not foolproof either.

I don't think it has anything to do with deleting sectors, but I'm open to look at anything if I get good repeatable info. Like I said, huge level support can introduce changes where no changes were meant to be made. A true coding error is reproducable at will just by performing the same series of steps. If you can't reproduce it, then look somewhere else. For example, video drivers are well known culprits in this area.

Some people I will refuse to upgrade regardless of money and some people get many free upgrades. It's all about attitude and honesty. My business "tactic" is no different from the majority of software vendors and arguably much better considering the pittance made. If someone is sincere about trying to help solve the problem, I guarantee you they get a free update. Those that bitch and moan will do so regardless of what I do or say and I give them nothing in return:)

Also people that give away their copies should expect NO support or free upgrades. I know who you are and you know who you are. That's the price you pay for being less than honest. (Hint, see top post -:)

[deep]

Oh and don't forget, the prior level is ALWAYS saved as yourname.BAK, plus if you turn on autobackup (or use the quicksave command), you will have backups of your levels at convenient stages. IOW, there is some user responsibility here since the tools are there to make quick or automatic backups. Auto or quick backups are .BKP

[DOOM Anomaly]

Everytime I make a level In deepsea, it looks and isnt very great, CAN YOU FIX THIS FOR TEH NESXT VERSON!?!?!$@!@ KTHX:P

[Brad_tilf]

Not that I really have a problem with you charging for your (I'm sure) immense programming skills but since the people who use your product can't charge for their work and most editors are free, why do you charge for yours? I'm just curious. Everyone else gives of their talents freely to the community because that is the way it is and has always been. Can I charge for a map that I spent two months sweating over? No, of course not. But did I put any less work into my project than you have into yours? I've spent years designing levels for Doom and Doom2 and hopefully my work has brought some enjoyment to the players. Why not just do like most of us and do the work out of love of the game and ask people who use your product to "contribute"? Granted, the money will probably trickle in but I doubt your making a living off deepsea anyway.
So why not give of your talents freely, open the source code to others and revel in the fact that you've created one of the best editors out there and watch what people create with what you created.

[deep]

If you really want an answer, just do a search here (DW) for this very old topic and read others who say exactly what you do and my replies. You don't have to agree, but I also don't have to agree:)

Btw, you can charge for a level if you want. Now whether people will pay you is another story. However, it's perfectly legal and has been done since 1994 or so.

[Grazza]

deep said:

Btw, you can charge for a level if you want. Now whether people will pay you is another story. However, it's perfectly legal and has been done since 1994 or so.

Really? Can you give any examples, apart from instances (e.g. Hacx, Hell2Pay) where the authors obtained a special license from id? I thought there were different rules for wads and editing tools.

[Use]

deep said:

Now that one I do know about - but don't know why. Only thing I know is that if you turn off the toolbars, it doesn't happen very often (if at all). And if you run PSP or play test it happens more often. It also happens way MORE with 3DFX drivers.

I am using a voodoo5 on that machine. Good call.

[cyber-menace]

This error ... the two-sided line thing ... happens to me BEFORE I actually save my level. I'll notice the different colour in the wrong area and fix it. Besides that Deepsea hasn't done anything like that to me. It does crash sometimes though (which can really piss me off) and when it loads it loads my last save instead of my last backup. I've lost a lot of work like that so now I've become a saving maniac!

BTW: WinDEU really, REALLY screws up my levels with the level check sometimes. The place takes one hell of a bad shape!

[Brad_tilf]

cyber-menace said:

This error ... the two-sided line thing ... happens to me BEFORE I actually save my level. I'll notice the different colour in the wrong area and fix it. Besides that Deepsea hasn't done anything like that to me. It does crash sometimes though (which can really piss me off) and when it loads it loads my last save instead of my last backup. I've lost a lot of work like that so now I've become a saving maniac!

BTW: WinDEU really, REALLY screws up my levels with the level check sometimes. The place takes one hell of a bad shape!

Perhaps you should try DETH

[deep]

Brad_tilf said:

Perhaps you should try DETH

LOL - read the ZETH change docs to see how many things it screws up. FYI (to give you some history), I went through ALL the DEU code in 1995 and rewrote it with a much more Windows like GUI -AND- fixed all the various errors and thrashed the tedious dot-to-dot drawing. This was called DeeP (for DOS). If you have Windows9x and can boot to DOS, it's available at sbsoftware.com. [Will NOT run in Windows command line - which is the reason DeePsea for Windows was written - IOW, it's a port of the DOS version]

DETH fixed some of these, but still missed many, which Randy fixed. Don't know if he fixed them all since I've forgotten over all these years even what they were.

DeePsea actually uses an EXTERNAL node builder, called DeePBSP. Historically the first nodebuilder to do dual formats and get it done on 486 machines in less time than it took to have a smoke. This was written specifically to replace BSP - called TBSP then:)

One can easily replace it with any other one too. Depending on the port and architecture sometimes it makes sense to do this. In fact, the projects have different defaults one can easily enable for GLBSP (JDOOM) or ZENNODE (Legacy).

[deep]

Grazza said:

Really? Can you give any examples, apart from instances (e.g. Hacx, Hell2Pay) where the authors obtained a special license from id? I thought there were different rules for wads and editing tools.

There are no rules for either [other than copyright on the textures]. True id bullied some into signing editing agreements,but they had no grounds to do so.

D!ZONE sold 10s of thousands of copies. Then there was a follow up and other copy cats did the same thing. I'm sure others here who were around back then can remember them. In fact, there's a guy right now selling a CD, the Kingdoom guy I think.

[deep]

Use3D said:

I am using a voodoo5 on that machine. Good call.

Thanks for posting. I used to have a Voodoo3 card and when I switched to a GF the problems mostly disappeared. That's why I knew<g>.

I really don't think it's possible for DeePsea to switch a linedef from 1-sided to 2-sided for no reason. For one, it has to create a valid 2nd sidedef and there's no way that will happen on a save. All it does when saving is save an array if a change was made. If no change was made, then the original disk data is saved. That means that it's also possible for disk cross-links to cause problems. Many people do not run (or stop) scandisk after a crash, not realizing the disk FAT can go tits up pretty fast.

Now, it is possible for another program to corrupt the memory of the array (since that's obtained dynamically) and create a mess. As I mentioned above, running PSP a lot or play testing was sure to cause more problems. Win9x sucks at recovering memory if a program did not release it properly. Plus it has a limited 64k handle resource (also not freed if a program forgets to do so) - which is why I think PSP or the toolbars cause problems - something wrong is going on in that area.

XP is so much better (hence very few problems with the same code), leading me to point the finger to Win9X ..stuff..<g>

[Grazza]

deep said:

D!ZONE sold 10s of thousands of copies. Then there was a follow up and other copy cats did the same thing. I'm sure others here who were around back then can remember them.

Naturally, I remember these CDs. I also remember claims that they were illegal. Quasar made such a claim recently in the forums.

Moreover, charging money for a compilation (with the claim that the maps are supplied free, and you are paying for the CD, packaging, etc.) is (arguably?) not the same as charging money for a map itself.

[deep]

Grazza said:

Naturally, I remember these CDs. I also remember claims that they were illegal. Quasar made such a claim recently in the forums.

Moreover, charging money for a compilation (with the claim that the maps are supplied free, and you are paying for the CD, packaging, etc.) is (arguably?) not the same as charging money for a map itself.

Did you read ALL the posts? Quasar is basically hanging by a thread - if a level did not have permission. Most levels say you can do with them what you want, hence even though the individual has a copyright, it really doesn't matter since he gave permission. Besides that has nothing to do with id.

In light of your original question, it doesn't really matter what the justification is for "selling". Selling is selling, period.

But you are drifting off-topic and really talking about something else. Here's the original thing I said:
----------
Btw, you can charge for a level if you want. Now whether people will pay you is another story. However, it's perfectly legal and has been done since 1994 or so.
---------

Then you asked:
---------
Really? Can you give any examples, apart from instances (e.g. Hacx, Hell2Pay) where the authors obtained a special license from id? I thought there were different rules for wads and editing tools.
---------

IOW, you asked about a special license from id. There is NO such license required.

[Grazza]

I was asking you to give specific instances of an author of a wad charging money for that wad, without getting id's agreement for this. Should I take it from your response that you regard the commercial wads that I mentioned (Hell2Pay and Hacx) as such cases?

Regarding the compilations...
If it is indeed the case that an author does not in general have the right to charge any money for his wad, then he cannot grant anyone else the right to charge money for it either (even with a "you can do whatever you like with it" statement). You can only grant rights that you hold in the first place.

BTW, the minutiae of these issues don't greatly excite me; I was just interested to hear which wads you had in mind...

EDIT: this thread contains some relevant discussion.

[deep]

I don't know nor care about the PWADs you mention .. it's not relevant to this discussion regards my statement. Anyone can sell their level (and others) without contacting id .. period. Why you appear to keep arguing this without any facts to back you up is amazing.

Hell, I charged for QUAKE levels long ago. And id contacted me on the grounds I was using QUAKE textures (textures are always imbedded in a QUAKE BSP). The texture names were the same, but not the contents, as I carefully explained to their lawyer. So obviously anyone can sell a level for all the reasons mentioned in the earlier thread you linked to above - it's YOUR work, not id's. My legal basis is international copyright law:)

Btw, that doom license linked to there is NOT the original license at all. That was an AFTER THE FACT modification and is invalid for anyone who has a license that preceeded that one. So be careful of what you read and what you believe. You can't make licenses retro-active. Interestingly the QUAKE license is much more restrictive and explicit, yet they backed off<g>

Also, if you are a publisher, you'd think that you'd know more about these matters. Not everything that is in a license (or agreement) is necesarily enforceable. It's a concept many people do not understand. For example, let's say a paint producer has a license that says if you use his paints in a painting, you cannot sell said painting. Can it be enforced? [I pushed the envelope here to make it crystal clear what the issue is - so please don't argue about the example]

[Kaiser]

why does everyone say deepsea crashes?

I've been using Deepsea for 3 years going on 4, and I never once experienced a crash.

[Use]

Wish I could say the same, but at least it's not very often. During a 4 hour session or so last night I had no problems.

[Enjay]

I used to get the "ugly white box" crash quite a lot with win 98SE and a voodoo3. PSP Zdoom and Outlook Express did indeed seem to be contributory factors as deep suggests. Since moving to nvidia and Win XP a few weeks ago I haven't had a single crash.

Oh yeah, and if you do get one of those crashes, I recommend a system restart straight away as a BSOD or some other nasty usually follows pretty soon afterwards.