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Li'l devil

Megawads ruined or redeemed by 1-2 maps?

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I wonder, has it ever happened that an entire megawad got ruined for some by just one or two maps? Or the opposite, redeemed by one or two maps?

 

No examples from me, sorry, I haven't played many wads.

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I struggle to imagine how a single map can ruin a whole wad. The only thing I can think of is a truly awful MAP01 that makes you drop the entire set, but I don't think it's what OP means (even so, I can't think of such wad).

 

As for the opposite, well, I think Community Chest 2 is only worth playing for The Mucus Flow, as the rest is average at best and dated at worst. That's still not redeeming, more like having one standout map in a whole set.

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i've always heard that zpack was redeemed almost solely by vader's maps (thunderpeak, termination, and blackrock), though i've never played it myself

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2 minutes ago, Celestin said:

As for the opposite, well, I think Community Chest 2 is only worth playing for The Mucus Flow, as the rest is average at best and dated at worst. That's still not redeeming, more like having one standout map in a whole set.

Yeah I heard a lot about this particular map, but I've never played it or CC2, so I just wasn't sure if its reputation is really that good (is this map really the reason why CC2 is talked about quite a lot?). So I kinda expected this answer, I guess.

 

5 minutes ago, Plerb said:

TNT: Evilution is worth playing for the truck in MAP19 alone.

lol

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Depending on your tastes, A.L.T. could fit either end of this description, and any number of maps could be the one(s) that fulfill it.

 

I played it fairly early in my Doom career and I wasn't prepared for how switch-hunty and obscure a lot of it was, but when A.L.T.'s mood hits just right (which it especially does in the last 3 maps), it's kind of impossible to forget, and made the whole experience up to me.

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Citadel at the Edge of Eternity kinda ruined Community Chest for me. It's not like CC1 is a great megawad anyway, but MAP29 really just made it such a horrible, horrible experience.

 

Also Community Chest 2, is not a bad megawad per se  (more or less a hit and miss), but once you get to The Mucus Flow, it really changes everything.

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For my part,

 

I think Darkwave's maps ruin the "3 Heures d'Agonie" trilogy for me.

 

Not because they're bad , they're masterfully crafted for maps made in a few hours, but their size and difficulty don't fit in with the spirit of the three wads in my opinion. When I play this serie without mods, I often skip the Darkwave maps because they create a big gap that I don't feel like crossing.

 

 

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Nothing like that, I don't really look at things in those terms. Although I will say, certain megawads like Hellbound or Sign or Torment really have to pad things out to reach that magic number of 32 (imo, it's really in the last 5 maps it gets bad in the former, but the signs are evident quite early on)

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2 hours ago, Cammy said:

Depending on your tastes, A.L.T. could fit either end of this description, and any number of maps could be the one(s) that fulfill it.

 

I played it fairly early in my Doom career and I wasn't prepared for how switch-hunty and obscure a lot of it was, but when A.L.T.'s mood hits just right (which it especially does in the last 3 maps), it's kind of impossible to forget, and made the whole experience up to me.

 

For me the worst parts of ALT were whenever there was a map that was clearly a random guy's map put in to finish the project, you could always tell because ALT was originally an Azamael project and had a sort of singular vision. Some of the other guys that came in, like BeeWen, Archi and Maddzi, clearly understood the project and provided maps that fit in with the strange vibe that Azamael was going with, on the other hand, theres a map by Wraith near the end that has nothing to do with the project and was plopped into an empty slot, ruining the ending of the previous map. His map wasn't bad per say, but it shouldn't have been *there*, as it was a map that was clearly an attempt to build the Spawning Vats building from Episode 2's intermission map, it would have belonged in that project to build the intermission map buildings, if it had ever taken off.

 

I generally enjoyed the entire megawad, but the maps that were just disconnected filler maps really pulled me out of the special ALT atmosphere

 

2 hours ago, Endless said:

Citadel at the Edge of Eternity kinda ruined Community Chest for me. It's not like CC1 is a great megawad anyway, but MAP29 really just made it such a horrible, horrible experience.

 

Also Community Chest 2, is not a bad megawad per se  (more or less a hit and miss), but once you get to The Mucus Flow, it really changes everything.

 

I actually really like Citadel, even though I had to dedicate an entire day to beat it (8 hours!), I feel like its a challenge everyone thats heavily invested in Doom should go through someday. Especially since it was his final work before...things happened. I'd say its the Mucus Flow of CC1 even. The one thing I don't like is the very end, when your required to do a wallrun glitch to finish the map, as far as im concerned everyone should just noclip that part.

 

Other CC1 standouts are TV's maps, Use3D's duo of epics, Sphagne(?)'s trio and Map 20 by TheUltimateDoomer. I absolutely hated Blood Demesne though, and I think most do.

 

CC2 on the other hand has a lot more 'what map was that one again?' ones that never stick out. City Heat (another UltimateDoomer map, go figure!), Sodding Death, To Hell and Back, Death Mountain and Gethsemane all stood out to me, with most of the rest just 'being there', or of course the 'I want to forget it but I cant' troll map from our badministrator, which makes us crawl inside goatse.

Edited by Devalaous

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I don't know that I'd use as drastic a word as "ruined", since I'd still be willing to go back and enjoy the earlier maps, but I remember the last few maps of Scythe having a definite shift away from the style that the WAD had up to that point and souring the experience for me.

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OP's question is puzzling at best. If you don't like a couple songs on an album you otherwise enjoy, surely you'll just listen to the tracks you like anyway, right? Megawads are obviously significantly more time consuming in that regard, so if I don't get any enjoyment out of the wad within the first 5-7 maps, I will likely drop it (hasn't happened that often to be honest).

Personally, I would ask what maps elevate a megawad/mapset from the great to desert island status. Like, you know, some wads are superb from start to finish but they never hit that 'I will replay this religiously every year' mark for me - this is just down to personal preference obviously.

Also, I agree with Devalaous, CatEoE is a must playthrough at least for one occasion for any doomer. I remember back when I just discovered this community, I decided to try out the classics first (MM, MM2, Requiem)  and then moved to the CC series, and oh boy did that map fuck with my brain. It seamlessly commingled an overwhelming sense of dreary hopelessness with an elicitation of mind-shattering awe of grandeur, the likes of which I had never experienced before.
I suppose contemporary players' mileage may vary to a much greater degree, because we've been REALLY spoilt for choice with maps comprised of impending macrostructures since the arrival of the almighty Sunder, but I do suggest everyone at least give it a fair shake regardless.

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I dropped D2INO when I couldn't make heads or tails on how to progress on MAP19. I didn't mind the WAD up until that point, but that level soured me on the whole thing entirely. That was many years back, so I may give it another shot one day.

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3 hours ago, Celestin said:

As for the opposite, well, I think Community Chest 2 is only worth playing for The Mucus Flow, as the rest is average at best and dated at worst. That's still not redeeming, more like having one standout map in a whole set.

 

Came here to say the same thing. I wouldn't go so far as to say CC2 as an overall body of work was bad, but if I may be so bold - if it weren't for The Mucus Flow, I wouldn't remember it.

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Scythe 2 isn't by any metric bad, but map23 onward just demotivates you for the massive difficulty spikes.

 

Also I can't stand Alien Vendetta after map10, not because for any particular reason more than I hate map11 with all my being.

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1 hour ago, DrRock said:

I dropped D2INO when I couldn't make heads or tails on how to progress on MAP19. I didn't mind the WAD up until that point, but that level soured me on the whole thing entirely. That was many years back, so I may give it another shot one day.

 

Funnily enough as someone who worked on this project, I have the complete opposite feeling. There is a lot of regret, not only for my own work in this but also the fact that it was a project that was undertaken at the wrong time by people who needed a little more experience. That said Map31 by Xaser is absolutely worth playing, it is on another level of quality and deviates so strongly from not only the rest of the wad but offers something I haven't really seen anywhere else, whilst remaining completely vanilla compatible. It is probably the closest to an example of the OP's question I can give, purely because I don't believe that a tiny percentage of an entire megawad can throw the general experience that much either way.

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1 hour ago, DrRock said:

I dropped D2INO when I couldn't make heads or tails on how to progress on MAP19. I didn't mind the WAD up until that point, but that level soured me on the whole thing entirely. That was many years back, so I may give it another shot one day.

Yeah MAP07 is the one people remember as being way too extra, but MAP19 is the real "this just never ends" IMO. "Follow Arrows," gee thanks scifista.

 

Anyhow like @cannonball said MAP31 is excellent, and @mouldy's maps are really good too. I'm also a fan of @Antroid's contributions though they didn't get a universally positive reception. In any case I think the last 3rd is definitely worth going back for, even if you just skip over MAP19.

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20 minutes ago, Cutman 999 said:

Scythe 2 isn't by any metric bad, but map23 onward just demotivates you for the massive difficulty spikes. 

Oh yeah. I wouldn't say it ruined S2 completely, but to date, I haven't finished Scythe 2 because of the last maps. The sudden spike in difficulty was too much for the me the first time, so I just dropped it and have not touched it since. I think it is one of those cases where the levels are pretty good on their own, but change their gameplay style so abruptly to something I don't enjoy.

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Didn't really care much for Sigil II's level design outside e6m4. Quite enjoyed that one and I'll probably finish the rest of the wad because of it.

 

(not technically a megawad but oh well hehe)

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I like Akeldama, but it is certainly not a pwad I would binge all in one go. Lots of people said before that its map’s are pretty damn lengthy and I had my moments where I would play 1-3 maps in a couple days and break off from it for a while before I picked it up and played it again and repeat until I finished it off. No one map particularly ruined the wad, it’s more like after spending a lot of time playing you feel like you need a break.

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7 hours ago, Celestin said:

I struggle to imagine how a single map can ruin a whole wad. The only thing I can think of is a truly awful MAP01 that makes you drop the entire set, but I don't think it's what OP means (even so, I can't think of such wad).

 

As for the opposite, well, I think Community Chest 2 is only worth playing for The Mucus Flow, as the rest is average at best and dated at worst. That's still not redeeming, more like having one standout map in a whole set.

CC1's start is so terrible, it's so buggy and boring.

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7 hours ago, roadworx said:

i've always heard that zpack was redeemed almost solely by vader's maps (thunderpeak, termination, and blackrock), though i've never played it myself


Vader's maps are, unquestionably, standouts but there are really only one or two maps in zpack that aren't decent ZDoom efforts (especially for the day in which they were released).  Anybody conveying the impression that ZPack needed to be 'redeemed' by Vader's maps is someone you shouldn't pay any attention to.

To the topic of the thread, I can't think of anything.  I agree with the gist of what some people have said, that a megawad with 1-2 excellent maps and the rest garbage is not a megawad that has been somehow "redeemed".  I think maybe you could phrase it as one or two maps figuratively justifying the existence of an otherwise unremarkable wad, but "redeemed" to me implies that the work as a whole has been somehow elevated, when that's not actually how it works—all the garbage maps are still going to be garbage!

 

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I would not say that MAP28: Run For It "ruined" Scythe for me, but it made me like the mapset a lot less...

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15 hours ago, roadworx said:

i've always heard that zpack was redeemed almost solely by vader's maps (thunderpeak, termination, and blackrock), though i've never played it myself

Personally I think Thunderpeak is kinda cool, but I was really underwhelmed when I played it. Some people seem to think it's one of the best wads of all time or something. It's like a 7.5/10 for me. Nice visuals, but the actual design is nothing special really. I wonder if the public opinion was boosted because it's a good map in a poor collection. (I haven't played the actual map pack though, so it's entirely possible @jerrysheppy is correct).

 

Also, as @Endless said, the jump in difficulty in Scythe 2 is really abrupt. It felt forced and uninspired, not really a "damn, now it's getting intense" thing so much as a "oh, I guess we're doing slaughter now just bcuz" feeling. I also think map23 onward is the weakest part of the wad in general.

Edited by TheMagicMushroomMan

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I totally get why people are turned off by Scythe 2’s last leg from MAP23 onwards - it’s such a massive change all of a sudden.

 

Personally, I don’t mind. I’m much more put off by MAP31 and enemy it introduces (which does bring the later maps down a bit, but not irreedemably). Much like MAP28: Run from it is the one map I’d despise to replay in Scythe 1, whereas Fire & Ice is much more enjoyable despite my first time with that one had me give up in crushing defeat.

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1 hour ago, RHhe82 said:

I totally get why people are turned off by Scythe 2’s last leg from MAP23 onwards - it’s such a massive change all of a sudden.

 

Personally, I don’t mind. I’m much more put off by MAP31 and enemy it introduces (which does bring the later maps down a bit, but not irreedemably). Much like MAP28: Run from it is the one map I’d despise to replay in Scythe 1, whereas Fire & Ice is much more enjoyable despite my first time with that one had me give up in crushing defeat.

 

Thinking now, I never played past map 23 or 24 of scythe 2 lol
It was indeed way too hard for me to keep going.

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1 hour ago, Deadwing said:

 

Thinking now, I never played past map 23 or 24 of scythe 2 lol
It was indeed way too hard for me to keep going.


It doesn’t get that much easier either, but I do think maps 23-25 are the hardest, and perhaps MAP26, but the rest are doable. If there’s another map I don’t like in Scythe 2, it’d be MAP29, which puts far less pressure on player than the earth jungle maps, but is far more annoying.

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There are no bad maps in Eternals Hell Ground, but Warp of Time is the one map in the set that makes the entire experience unforgettable.

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