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DemonCake

Worst official level?

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Downtown! That's the one.

 

Honestly, i allways felt that way about both that map and the arrow, even back then. It's bad design and it's a pathetic excuse for a convincing cityscape. Sorry lol. I would have bitched back then, but i had no internet.

 

As i wrote, you could get more convincing city maps from your friends (Or coverdisks, or make them yourself). So to see this as the big hell on earth thing was a letdown. And from my experience over the years having to put arrows in your maps is usually an indicator for bad design IMO (Looking at you Planetside 2). Unless it, you know, makes f- sense for an arrow to be there.

 

Ok ok, i got it out of my system now i think. ;D

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12 hours ago, Gothic said:

I never understood people's issue with the cacodemons at the start of e3m1. Do they not just ignore them and go for the shotgun?

I pistol started doom 1 UV and how I usually play doom and it was a mistake, the cacos and imps will just block your path. I don't like it of the cuz of lack of ammo it has compared to other levels while being forced to fight high hp demons. I usually hate ammo scarcity when playing Doom imo.

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Thy Flesh Consumed in my opinion has a lot of stinkers in comparison to the previous three episodes. The first episode that they developed after Tom Hall's departure, and his lack of creative input shows through the amateurish nature of this episode. 

 

E4M1 is the first contender here. While I'm aware that this one has a cult following, I'd still say that it's an absolute mess of a map. The scarcity of ammunition just forces you to conserve ammo as much as possible, otherwise it's next to impossible to leave the map with 100% kills. John put a lot of barons in E4M2, but in return the map also provides you a tonne of ammunition and firepower to deal with them. Here? There's no such case. Thin walkways and more than often the enemies being able to surround you quickly, plus the fact that you can essentially soft-lock yourself in the NIN secret if you accidentally backtrack into the blue key area as the wall raises. It reminds me of Heretic's opening maps with episode 3, 4 and 5. For all aspiring mappers, here's a tip; if you're going to put a crap load of high tier enemies in the first map and remove the majority of healing items on higher difficulties, have some decency to compensate with some ammunition.

 

Shawn Green's E4M3 is apparently the first map Shawn ever created, and it definitely shows. What it also shows is the lack of quality control at Id Software. One of the funniest mistakes in this map is how you're able to screw up one of the ambushes, because for whatever reason, the wall that's supposed to raise after you cross a certain linedef can also be interacted with as a door. Two broken secrets that somehow went completely unnoticed, but that isn't what perplexes me; it's the staircase of secrets and the fact that the switch in front of that secret doesn't do anything. Apparently it's there to lower a wall to the lowest floor height, but the sector that it's targeting is already at the lowest height, so it doesn't function at all. It just screams, "who thought in their right mind that someone's first map was fit for a commercial product...?"

 

E4M4, another American McGee map. It's... not bad per say, but it is surely quite forgettable and in my opinion, doesn't deserve to be the fourth map of the episode. If it's up to me, I'd definitely switch its place with E4M1 instead. A relatively simple map with the difficulty hilariously notched down as compared to his other map. 

 

I'm not a fan of either of Tim the Enchanter's maps from Episode 4. Both of them are an absolute joke. 

  • E4M5, you can essentially skip half of the map by simply collecting the red key and heading down the supercharge canal. Both blue and yellow keys are optional here, but if you do this trick before collecting the blue key, you've locked yourself out from any backtracking attempts. Yellow key is entirely a joke, since you can just jump through the window and call it a day. The texture choices are also rather perplexing. Marble fortress with military base hexagonal tiled floors. Tech-base doors, too. Plus, the map's filled to the brim with a lot of lower tier enemies this far into the "difficult" episode.
  • E4M9 doesn't have any redeeming qualities either, apart that 75% of the map can just be skipped. Why exactly is this a secret map? Both of John's E4M2 and E4M6 are a far better contender for being a secret map than this. Plus, why exactly is a tech-base doing in a map based entirely in hell...? Please don't come with "Oh hell merging with tech-base" no. That was just episode 2, after that it's just pure hell. Don't try to justify stupid texture choices, please.

Anyways, that's my rant. I wouldn't tell anybody what to like or what not to, but I'll still sure as hell speak my mind out.

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7 hours ago, GreenAnime said:

I pistol started doom 1 UV and how I usually play doom and it was a mistake, the cacos and imps will just block your path. I don't like it of the cuz of lack of ammo it has compared to other levels while being forced to fight high hp demons. I usually hate ammo scarcity when playing Doom imo.

It is not hard to run around the Cacos at all.

 

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Downtown is a horrible Doom 2 map, probably the worst in the whole game, but nothing, and I mean nothing can compare to the absolute HATRED I feel for the dumpster fire that is E3M2 Slough of Despair from Doom 1. When I replay Doom 1 and see the title appear for the map after beating the first level of episode 3, I instantly become angry because I know about the utter shitshow I'm about to go through. The map being shaped like hand might sound cool, but in execution it's fucking dreadful having to traverse through a complete clusterfuck of a map. There is barely enough ammo to get you through the hordes of shotgunners, Cacodemons, and the bastards that are the lost souls. There are some weapons in the map but good luck trying to find them since they are placed in certain areas that look just like another hundred different areas on the fucking map, not to mention that the areas are also very cramped so more often than not once you get a weapon there are already like 10 demons blocking the way out so in the end you get jumped. A ton of the areas in the level are also useless and add in nothing important other than just confusing the player more. The cacodemons are way too fucking big for the small spaces that the level makes you go through and you have very little ammo and very weak weapons so you end up fucked in the end. The level also really likes the lost souls since there are like a thousand of those little shitheads in the whole level and they are put next to each other so that a hundred of them can get up in your face no matter what. The level is a fucking dreadful experience and it is honestly one of the worst levels I've ever played in any FPS game.

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my least favorite levels are the pit and the citadel and out of these 2 i think the citadel is easily the worst from doom 1 and 2, it's like sandy petersen saw that one incredibly cryptic bullshit part in castlevania 2 and was like "wow i want my level to just be that"

with doom 1 i tolerate a lot more but i can see why limbo is hated

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Speaking strictly Doom, I'm going to go with E1M8. If you play continuous then you will probably arrive loaded to the gills with armor and ammo (like, all of those rockets you collected and had no use for up to this point) and if you don't, well, you get to load up before facing a handful of demons and two barons. I would have enjoyed this map significantly more if it was the ending to E1M7, or if virtually any sort of medium-length combat or progression led up to the boss encounter. The way it is, you load into the map, shoot some barrels, deal with a small number of demons and mow down two barons. That's the map, roll credits.

 

And it's sort of a shame as well, because the star-shaped arena is a very nice and memorable feature (it conjures up the image of one of those guitars used by those "metal" dudes, pretty cool). I'm taking issue with the fact that the map is just so short and devoid of any real combat or puzzles, considering that the prior maps were pretty stacked on both fronts. It could really benefit from having "something" to do before the boss encounter, like having to earn or find some weapons and armor instead of just being given them for basically free right at the start (or end, it's sort of hard to delineate with this map).

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Posted (edited)

Gonna be unconventional and say MAP21: Nirvana from Doom 2. Bunch of nonsense taped together with teleporters, a stair puzzle you can fuck up, and a key you don't even need. 

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Posted (edited)

The Citadel is pretty awful in my opinion. Especially for the blue key.

Edited by BriceTheBruce

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On 3/24/2024 at 10:27 AM, BriceTheBruce said:

The Citadel is pretty awful in my opinion. Especially that "hidden" door you have to find to go to the blue key.

Yes, and I'm gonna have to put a restraining order on your profile.

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On 3/20/2024 at 3:22 AM, realjohnmadden said:

E1M1 The Pit.

(PS: E3M1 is good, if you don't like it run around the Cacos.)

sorry this is a bad opinion, the pit rocks

gonna have to rep what others have said, downtown and citadel are, imo, the worst of the levels in doom 2. I want to say tricks and traps solely for the exit hallway but I won't

really ruining my reputation as the sandy defender with this

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Every time I try to replay Doom II these days, The Factory and Downtown absolutely kill my run. I just can't stand them.

 

E3M2 Slough of Despair is a crapfest as well.

 

And Administration Center in Evilution is putrid.

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Posted (edited)

Worst 3 for doom 2 are probably:

Tenements

Downtown

Nirvana

In that order

 

This has made me realize how long it has been since I played the other official maps.

38 minutes ago, Ubik said:

 

E3M2 Slough of Despair is a crapfest as well.

I definitely have to disagree with that. I think it by far one of the best maps in doom 1.

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I've never understood the rage against e3m2. I think people's brains are just wired differently when it comes to navigating spaces. To me it is a rather ground-breaking map in Doom. It is almost all natural terrain, not inside a base or buildings. It has a bit of an open world feel to it, just like e3m6, which is even more open. The hand-gimmick is also cool for its time. One of the things people complain about Sandy's maps is the large amount of texture themes (doom 2 map10) and this along with a few other maps has a quite thought out texture use, with a strong theme.

In episode 2 you can take a section from maps 2,3,4,5,6,7 and paste it into another map, and it wouldn't look out of place. This is not so prevalent in episode 3 as most of the maps have a much stronger theme and identity and e3m2 is part of that. People often dislike e3m5 and e3m7, but those maps are visually very interesting, with some cool scenes and decorations.

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I'm gonna have to say it's probably TTRAP.WAD. I never have fun on that one. It's ugly, confusing and terrible to navigate.

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probably said frequently here, but man E3M7 (gate to limbo) sucks so bad

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2 hours ago, june gloom said:

I'm gonna have to say it's probably TTRAP.WAD. I never have fun on that one. It's ugly, confusing and terrible to navigate.

are you sure you're thinking of ttrap?

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1 minute ago, EPICALLL said:

are you sure you're thinking of ttrap?

 

I don't know, EPICALLL, what do you think I'm thinking of?

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It'll have to be Administration Center for me too. Huge, boring and ugly. It makes me feel like a mouse trapped in a cardboard box :x

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2 hours ago, june gloom said:

 

I don't know, EPICALLL, what do you think I'm thinking of?

I think you're thinking of MANOR.wad. I can't think of a more confusing and in-navigable stage.

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I'm back here, lemme just list off a ton of bad ones.

 

E1M5: It's mainly that dark section. Also, I never really liked this one ever. Good music though. Like a low C-tier level.

E2Manythingreally: Excluding E2M7, and E2M8, Episode 2 is generally bad. Mainly because most were half assed practically concept levels by Tom Hall and Sandy Peterson. Especially something like E2M9, that is one really bad one.

 

E3M2: It's E3M2, do I have to say much?

 

E3M4: It's mainly that stupid final room. You know, the one with a hundred switches.

 

E3M5: No one likes this one, and it's easy to see why. You don't have to look far to see the trash. But for anyone wondering, the teleportation puzzle can be solved by the teleporters that blink red.

 

E3M8: It's not really awful, just dissapointing

 

Doom II:

 

Map04: I can't like this level. Like, it's just that box, man. You know, the one in the corner. The box you have to stand on that has no indication you have to stand on it, yeah that one.

 

Map05: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

 

Map12,13: You'd be surprised how much these two suffer from the same problems. I still think 13 is worse, but these both are terrible.

 

Map31: Lazy

 

And most of the the third episode of Doom II is pretty bad, save for the living end of course.

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36 minutes ago, EPICALLL said:

I think you're thinking of MANOR.wad. I can't think of a more confusing and in-navigable stage.

If I was thinking of MANOR.WAD I would have said MANOR.WAD.

 

I wasn't, so I didn't. I said TTRAP and I meant TTRAP.

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Tricks and traps from doom 2. I only hate it because it introduces the pain elemental. AND I HATE THOSE FUCKERS WITH A PASSION THAT BURNS HOTTER THAN THE ARCHVILE’S FLAME ATTACK

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Posted (edited)

Worst official level from each IWAD, for Doom, including Thy Flesh Consumed, I would say E2M9: Fortress of Mystery. While it showcases the infighting element as you can get the barons and cacodemons to kill each other, that's all there is as it's two rooms, followed by a "secret" room where all the keys are right near each other and the exit. Pretty much the weakest level in Doom as a whole. I count Episode 4 as part of Doom as I can't find a single map I detested from it.

 

Doom 2, the honour of worst map goes to Map 21: Nirvana, it's poorly designed, even by Sandy Petersen's standards, that it outdoes Map 24: The Chasm, in terms of ugly level design and absent-minded or absurd concepts.

 

TNT: Evilution, the worst map for me would have to be Map 21: Administration Center. Map 27: Mount Pain comes very close, but its myriad of bullshit moments pales in comparison to the extremely tedious, yawn-inducing, grindy slog that is Administration Center. I had more fun with the simplistic, rudimentary abstruse game design philosophies of Map 08: Metal.

 

The Plutonia Experiment, that's a very tough one as most of the wad is good, but while it has a couple of duds, looking at Map 21: Slayer, with it being a scaled-down, almost copy-paste job of Doom 2 Map 11: Circle of Death (what is it with IWADs and crappy Map 21s?) and Map 26: Bunker, I don't really like Map 11: Hunted all that much, it's so flat, texture selection is uniform and uninspiring, the arch-vile maze is confusing as hell, the door opening linedef triggers feel so random, and the key switches are at the opposite sides of their corresponding bars forcing you to go through the maze again. The concept of hunting arch-viles in a maze while they're also hunting you is neat, but the execution is incredibly clunky, making it not that fun.

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Posted (edited)

So, what's the issue with Downtown? I had a lot of fun exploring the map as a kid and had fun during my recent replay as well.

As for the worst maps - these are small pointless boss levels: e1m8, e2m8, e3m8, map30. Why not make a proper map with boss area at the end? Lazy.

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On 3/20/2024 at 6:51 AM, Enzo Carozza said:

Ultimate Doom - E3M8: Dis
Underwhelming bossfight; trivial on continuous runs, tedious on pistol starts.

Doom II - MAP13: Downtown
Pretty sure everyone knows why by now.

TNT - MAP22: Habitat
I can't believe this map's author also made MAP01 of Icarus: an actually good map.

Plutonia - MAP10: Onslaught
I hardwired my muscle memory to perform the yellow key grab just to avoid most of this map.

Wad the HELL is dis

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2 hours ago, Orchid87 said:

So, what's the issue with Downtown? I had a lot of fun exploring the map as a kid and had fun during my recent replay as well.

As for the worst maps - these are small pointless boss levels: e1m8, e2m8, e3m8, map30. Why not make a proper map with boss area at the end? Lazy.

It makes sense to me to make them small. There are already a lot of full-size maps. Dying unexpectedly due to an unknown end boss and having to redo a large map would be frustrating. If e1m8 was tagged on at the end of e1m7, would it be a better map? With all "full-sized" maps they could simply lower the map count by one. We'd have e1m1 to e1m7 as progression maps and e1m8 as a secret map.

Doom is a better game due to the different map sizes/formats. One opening level, 6 full length maps with some progression, a secret map and a boss map per episode. Doom 2 suffers from an endless amount of maps without much content progression or break of monotony. You can take any map after map 10 or so and swap around and you wouldn't really notice it. The only ones that are well placed is map15, in the middle, for the secret exit and the sheer size of it, and map29 as a very good build-up to the somewhat lackluster map30. Doom episodes had a clear theme and a sense of buildup and progression. The boss maps are part of that.

 

Short boss maps aren't any more lazier than not having 15 maps per episode in Doom and 9 episodes. Map making takes time (money), which is a finite resource when developing a game.

There are also memory constraints. A big map30, with so many different monsters, wouldn't run on a 4 meg machine, which was the target hardware.

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Doom: Unholy Cathedral, of course.
Damn teleports!

Ultimate Doom (ep4): Perfect Hatred.
I know people do love this one, but I can't get any fun from it.
I'm not sure why. I guess it is because there is no safe spot.

Doom II: The Chasm, of course.
It is hard to believe that map got into the final product!

TNT: Habitat.
I love the start with the zombies behind the boxes and the two liquids mixing, but that's all.
It just has bad things after that.

Plutonia: Caged.
Another one I know people do love, but I can't have fun playing.
I guess it is because you can get damage from anything very far way and not know what is hitting you.

Doom64: Hectic.
I see no reason at all to look for a secret map like that one. I prefer not to find a secret that does just, only and exclusively punnish me.

Nerve: ?
Didn't finish it yet, o I can't tell yet.

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