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TheShep

feeling like a lot of folks are fairweather

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i've been here a long time and feel like folks are snoozing on things. i'm trying to make a way on twitch, but i feel like if i'm not a speedrunner, mapper, CP leader, etc., i get left in the dust.

 

it's pretty disappointing for someone who's been here for a good 22 years. but that's fine. i've been left behind before.

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Dude, people like us are also the blood of the game, people do the maps, the proyects and stuff, but we also are the one that take our time to play it and enjoy it.

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Posted (edited)

@TheShep I'm with you my friend I've been playing Doom since 94 Decino and MtPain27 inspired me to do my own runs online. Since I'm not even close to ZeroMaster skill I went a different direction I do the UV-Max runs but instead of worrying about records use them as teaching tools to show people different routes to take in each level where the secrets are Etc.  It's disheartening when you feel like you don't even exist to the people that inspired you and even putting out daily contents barely gets views.  We should be helping each other more than I have seen so far in here message me your information I'll follow you my YouTube is under my screen name on here the more people support each other the stronger the community will get we will all get better together my friend we just need to support each other more we can always do better

Edited by LegendaryEevee

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The thing you're speaking of is just the nature of the beast I'm afraid. Some wads are a little "flavor of the week-ish" regarding their popularity and moreover, not everyone has the personality to stand out somehow in the community. There are still plenty of people that'll support you if Eevee's post is any indication at least. Find your friends and it won't matter so much  how known you are to the broader community. 

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1 hour ago, TheShep said:

speedrunner, mapper, CP leader, etc.

Genuinely not trying to be rude, (can't stress this enough) but any reason you aren't trying to do those things?

 

Have you tried mapping before?

 

I don't know anything about your content, that's why I'm asking you.

 

You recognize that those who are doing those types of activities (mapping, speedrunning, project leading, etc.) are the people that get eyes on their content - have you tried to do any of those things you've mentioned? From the way you've written the post it seems like you haven't, but perhaps I'm wrong.

 

If you know that's what gets 'attention' in this community, and that's what you're looking for, (eyes on your content, as evidenced by your own post) why aren't you adapting to it, or at least trying to adapt to it?

 

Really, what's stopping you from getting good at mapping, attempting speedruns, or even hosting a community project for an idea you find interesting?

 

If something isn't working for you, try something new!

 

I'm assuming you're open to some suggestions / criticism or you wouldn't be making a public thread like this.

 

1 hour ago, TheShep said:

I've been left behind before.

Lamenting your situation has never helped anybody before - with anything in life - not trying to get philosophical here - I know you're upset, I at least assume so - but don't give up!

 

Try carving yourself some kind of niche - and then be satisfied w/ whatever sized audience you end up getting - but expressing that you're gonna be left behind is no way to do this, IMO.

 

Adapt what you're doing - you seem to know, like I said, the kind of thing that potentially draws viewers - try doing one or some of those things!

 

:)

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, TheShep said:

i'm trying to make a way on twitch,

 

Twitch is the very definition of an overcrowded marketplace. For every popular streamer that apparently "Everyone has heard of" except me (probably because my total time watching game streams could probably be measured in single digits), there's millions more who will never get noticed. Not saying it's impossible for you specifically to get noticed, but instant gratification and recognition it most definitely is not. And Doom, for all it's amazing popularity 3 decades after release, is still very niche.

 

2 hours ago, TheShep said:

but i feel like if i'm not a speedrunner, mapper, CP leader, etc., i get left in the dust.

 

So you're saying that unless you do the things that typically get people well known in this community, you won't get well known?

 

What exactly is it you want? Obviously you're upset about something, but what exactly you would like to happen is a bit murky based on your post alone.

 

 

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2 hours ago, TheShep said:

i've been here a long time and feel like folks are snoozing on things. i'm trying to make a way on twitch, but i feel like if i'm not a speedrunner, mapper, CP leader, etc., i get left in the dust.

 

 it's pretty disappointing for someone who's been here for a good 22 years. but that's fine. i've been left behind before.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this...

 

From what I know, your main content is Twitch live-streaming... Which let's not kid ourselves, streaming is hard gig. Not only for exposure, but you are also playing Doom, which in the whole grand scheme of things on Twitch is a small subset of the site.

 

You could possibly make an argument that people would rather watch Doom speedrunner streams, due to those being seen by some as possibly "more entertaining", but I'm still not quite sure what it is you're feeling.

 

One thing that I can say is that it's not just streamers that can feel like this. I think with the way Doomworld is currently set up, you kinda have to pray that your new release stays on the first page long enough to be seen. Once your release hits the second page, you are most likely not gonna get much views unless you have already made a name for yourself as a mapper.

 

I think this is largely due to the "WAD Releases & Development" subforum also including WADs that have been released ages ago, so your new release can easily get pushed to the second page just from some comments from old projects. Personally, I think it would be nice if "New Releases" had it's own subforum where WADs could have a lifetime of around 1-2 weeks there, so that it would be easier to see actual new releases as opposed to existing releases which just end up pushing those down.

 

Either way, @LadyMistDragon has a point regarding the WAD flavour of the week and popularity. Unfortunately I have seen quite a few WADs that I thought were pretty good get overshadowed by other project simply due to getting pushed off the first page, and the mapper being unknown. At this point, it kinda is somewhat of a popularity contest to see if people check out your WAD or not.

 

Same could be said when it comes to Twitch and streaming. I've often noticed streaming myself, that people will more often check in to your streams if you play the more popular WADs. Whenever you play some WAD that's much older and not currently popular, less people will typically check out your stream. I'm saying this to you @TheShep, because I noticed you tend to play alot of older WADs. Again nothing wrong with that (I like many older WADs), but it's kinda just how it is.

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Sounds like you're doing twitch for the wrong reasons. You have to be unbelievably lucky to get famous ANYWHERE or you have to be born into it. And I've yet to hear of the first kid inheriting their father/mother's twitch "kingdom."

 

You can't do a thing for a long time and expect to get famous on that merit alone. Think of the millions of people who have worked their asses off for decades doing the same job and never got a job-promotion. 

 

And passive-aggressiveness paired with putting yourself down won't help your case, nor garner sympathy. On the contrary. 

 

Ok, so what do you do about it? I assume you like what you do on twitch. Great. Keep doing it to the capacity that you want but understand that what you do specifically clearly isn't helping you get famous. So either stop trying to get famous (Which is my best advice to anyone, ever) or dedicate your time to a completely different genre. 

If you're doing twitch for the money, then I suggest turning the twitch thing into a hobby and go finding a regular job if you're able to hold one. Fame isn't happiness. Money isn't happiness, and making money on twitch is directly linked to your popularity.

 

Finding what fulfills you emotionally however is happiness. Do what gives you personal joy. If you can turn that into a job, great. If not, keep it as your hobby.

 

"Rawrwrawrar don't tell me what to do you philosophising intellectual!" I mean you don't have to. But I'm giving you some tough love from my personal experience with therapy. Take it or leave it.

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Maybe try testing other people's maps?

 

In general, seeking success (exclusively) is a surefire way to burn yourself out and come to hate what you do, or even yourself. I've been there.

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1 hour ago, Major Arlene said:

Life is also a lot different than what it was about 5 years ago. more people were home during the pandemic which means they had more time to watch streams, etc.

 

So what I'm hearing is, I need to start another pandemic to get popular. Alright, seems like an easy task.

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Stream because you enjoy it, not to chase numbers. And yeah, seconding what other people have said here. Feeling like you own viewers or people owe you something is a short path to misery and resentment.

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12 minutes ago, Meowgi said:

now I get a message from you saying you aren't pleased that I "hijacked the entire community" and made it my own?

 

Brother, you have some serious misplaced animosity going on and I think you should either take a break from the streaming gig or consider why you're doing it in the first place.

 

Okay, wow. I didn't realize there was more backstory here and if this is the treatment Meowgi is getting, I shudder to think what would be said to or about people more popular than him.

This is really sad to read and yeah, I guess my next suggestion would be to not engage in this kind of behavior. Community and collaboration is valued on Twitch and doing anti-social things like this will be a swift way to make you unpopular. There are literally rules on Twitch about self-promotion and etiquette. Please follow them.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, TheShep said:

i'm trying to make a way on twitch, but i feel like if i'm not a speedrunner, mapper, CP leader, etc., i get left in the dust.


but that's fine. i've been left behind before.

I recognise this pattern. You expect empathy. That's not a good desire, if you actually want to achieve something.

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I've been playing the game for almost 25 years, where's my ticket to entitlement???

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8 hours ago, TheShep said:

i've been here a long time and feel like folks are snoozing on things. i'm trying to make a way on twitch, but i feel like if i'm not a speedrunner, mapper, CP leader, etc., i get left in the dust.

 

it's pretty disappointing for someone who's been here for a good 22 years. but that's fine. i've been left behind before.

As much as that Doom vets get a lot of street cred, this isn't absolute. I very much recognize you as being a vet considering your 20+ years of activity here. That's commendable. And i understand from your end that you want some of that street cred to carry over to your streams on Twich, a platform which, as many have mentioned already, is overcrowded in terms of the people it wants to serve.

 

Brought short: If you want to demand people your attention based on your years of activity here, you need to seek other ways.

 

The last postings suggest there is more at hand than initially meets the eye - Off-site records of how this apparent need for recognition is experienced by others.

 

Imagine DoomKid or Essel would suddenly speak the way you are speaking now. It would get an equal reaction and most likely one would start to wager what is going on because its not like them.

 

Based on your years of activity, i am going to give the benefit of the doubt and assume that your recent behavior is not like who you actually are. And despite not knowing you very well, i very much would want you to participate in the community, instead of you doing your battles outside of it.

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Posted (edited)

Sorry to hear that you're feeling down buddy I wish I had the right words to cheer you up but not really

 

I had my own little crisis the other night because this is just really too much to contend with and I'm feeling quite burnt out myself there's no real Road or Avenue to take that doesn't lead to some kind of burnout with this past time and life is kind of about balance

 

Need to find joy and fulfillment and other places as well and for me I've been a lot less active and happy lately so I'm actually going to focus more on myself and get out there get those endorphins get walking and find more things to occupy my time so I think we're both in kind of a rut of some sort

 

It's nice to see the outcry of support and ideas in this thread and I agree with most of them and yeah twitch is just not something appealing to me don't be offended by that YouTube is enough for me I can't keep up with too many platforms

 

I will say this and truly you're more recent stream of playing my maps have been a great sense of joy to me and I've even rewatched a few key moments a few times you've made me laugh my ass off and made me happy to see my work get played but these kind of things are more mapper oriented which is kind of why I started my thing to begin with to help mappers out but trying to get Mass Appeal is a tall drink of water and in the end maybe you might not want it because it can become a hassle and become too much to keep up with

 

The bottom line is to keep things fun and sustainable for yourself if you're not having a good time then as hard it is to say you might need to break off walk around find other things reorient yourself and I hope you get there buddy stay positive keep your chin up and get that perspective you need

 

I've been having the most fun lately just chatting in the community and with some buddies good friends and community and that's shown here too

 

I wish I was more coherent but that's the best I can do just take care and try not to stress because yeah it's not good

 

You're a good person buddy keep your stick on the ice

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Hey there, sorry to hear you're feeling down shep. I wanna say a few things 'in defense' of you without taking away from the honest and I think good feedback you've gotten from people like @Major Arlene and @Meowgi. I also want to share some of my own thoughts.

 

I have been watching your channel for... over a year now? In that time I've probably seen you play dozens of wads that were just released in RC1. Looking just through your VODs from the past month I see PUSS33, Doomworld Dating Simulator and Crate Expectations. I've seen you play a lot of new stuff: streams that probably have helped mappers in one way or another to make their stuff better, and I wanna thank you for that.

 

Last year I wrote a critical message to you in a DM, and you wrote a comprehensive and kind message back to me and adjusted your behaviour on stream. Thank you again for that, buddy. Not everybody can take feedback like that and I respect it a lot.

 

I've watched your channel a lot and I have never given you feedback on how I thought you could make your stream grow. This despite me hearing you talk about your stream and hearing your desire for growing as a channel often. The feelings you've expressed in this thread: I've heard those expressed quite a few times. Each time I thought the same thing: talking about channel growth in a negative way on your stream is not content I like. Yes, you have those feelings but expressing them like that is not the best look for your brand, I think. Showing things like confidence, joy, humility, having fun with the maps and chat: those are the kinds of things I am drawn to in streamers. You do all of those, but hearing the negative talk about how you are not getting the attention you would want is often in there as well and it doesn't feel nice to me.

 

If you want: hit me up on discord and I'll have a voice conversation there with you or however you want. With you and me talking about this whole thing and me giving you direct (honest/ harsh?) feedback on how I think you could grow your channel. For whatever my experience as quite the casual streamer is worth.

I hope you can find a better fit into the broader Doom community, without any negativity or entitlement and just the joy of the maps and the people. Take care dude.

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3 hours ago, Meowgi said:

Stuff

 

10/10 situation handling, would definitely hire as PR person if i was running for president and got caught in a compromising situation. 

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Two generalities are feel are relevant to mention here after reading the thread so far:

 

1. There are no actually effective and reliable "get successful quickly" schemes, they are all just BS.

2. Other people have concerns of their own to deal with before they can start investing their energy into whatever yours are.

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The sheer amount of blunt in Decay's responses kills me every time.

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34 minutes ago, Amaruψ said:

The sheer amount of blunt in Decay's responses kills me every time.

It can't be emulated, for that person would be an impostor.

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Posted (edited)

Not everyone who enjoys Doom watches or even cares about streams.

Other people have already eloquated this point, so I'll do it from another angle:
Consider a venn diagram of people who play Doom and people who watch streams. That slice in the middle? I don't have the data, but I bet it's almost imperceptible.


Personally as a Doom player for over 20 years, I don't want to watch other people play.

If I want to interact with other people in this context, I'll fire up Zandronum or go to the forums.

The most I'll watch is a 5-10 minute review or a 2-5 minute gameplay snippet of a wad to decide if I want to play it myself. I imagine that's how most Doomers old and new roll.

 

When I see people plugging their streams and attaching their name everywhere so they can get clout, that's offputting. If you play the ''Lol I've been here for ages why am I not semi-famous'' card, that sounds like entitlement. Complaining about it is weak behaviour.

 

13 hours ago, TheShep said:

i feel like if i'm not a speedrunner, mapper, CP leader...

 

Speedrunning is a feat of technical skill. Even someone who doesn't care for speedrunning can appreciate that.

Mapping creates more content for the game and is also a feat of technical skill, and when done right, artistic talent. Same goes for gameplay modding.

Leading community projects results in the creation of more content and drives more people to create and improve what they can make.

 

All three of the categories you mentioned are all inherently more generative and meaningful than just streaming a gameplay video with commentary.

 

I consider mappers and moders as most deserving of recognition for these reasons, with the additional category of people who maintain and update the source ports.

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9 hours ago, Wo0p said:

Sounds like you're doing twitch for the wrong reasons. You have to be unbelievably lucky to get famous ANYWHERE or you have to be born into it. And I've yet to hear of the first kid inheriting their father/mother's twitch "kingdom."

 

You can't do a thing for a long time and expect to get famous on that merit alone. Think of the millions of people who have worked their asses off for decades doing the same job and never got a job-promotion. 

 

And passive-aggressiveness paired with putting yourself down won't help your case, nor garner sympathy. On the contrary. 

 

Ok, so what do you do about it? I assume you like what you do on twitch. Great. Keep doing it to the capacity that you want but understand that what you do specifically clearly isn't helping you get famous. So either stop trying to get famous (Which is my best advice to anyone, ever) or dedicate your time to a completely different genre. 

If you're doing twitch for the money, then I suggest turning the twitch thing into a hobby and go finding a regular job if you're able to hold one. Fame isn't happiness. Money isn't happiness, and making money on twitch is directly linked to your popularity.

 

Finding what fulfills you emotionally however is happiness. Do what gives you personal joy. If you can turn that into a job, great. If not, keep it as your hobby.

 

"Rawrwrawrar don't tell me what to do you philosophising intellectual!" I mean you don't have to. But I'm giving you some tough love from my personal experience with therapy. Take it or leave it.

Just wanted to say thank you for this. ...Because you reminded me why I never had any interest in streaming nor making videos en masse: I just want to do my thing and not be a carnival barker nor marketer of myself. ;-)  As you said, merit alone isn't all that's needed to "make it."

 

((For backstory, for several years I was making tutorial & demonstration YouTube videos in VR of a VR program named Anyland before it recently had to shut down. I never did it for popularity, I did it simply to help out when I wasn't in & available; teach, give people ideas. My work was appreciated & useful for people, and that was the goal accomplished.  Also I was never monetized. I had no big dreams of anything, always grounded in reality.))

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Posted (edited)

Personally for my tastes, I don't watch Twitch streams except very rare occasions. I'm in the same boat as ol' mate Clippy - I can only handle so many platforms lol. So I don't really have anything special to add in regards to Twitch, sorry mate.

 

In terms of feeling unfulfilled, unhappy, or unappreciated, this is a very common thing and I totally sympathise. I'd say any content creator feels this way ... even the big boys and girls of Doom would have videos or streams that don't perform as well as other ones and think they suck and folks are ignoring them. I'm sure of it. Unless you are someone who can hide comfortably in the shadow of a massive ego, it's something that will eat away at you one way or another.

 

But I personally try to get ahead of the oncoming train of unhappiness and locate what it is that's making me feel like shit and I try my best to cut the bastard out. For example, I've been feeling the unbearable weight of doing playthrough videos for some time (a pressure only I put myself under, no one else) and so I've made the conscious decision to stop doing them. I've stood back and recognised that there are so many cool dudes who main gameplay stuff and excel with ridiculous poise and skill; they can carry that particular torch and I'll stick to my dumb joke videos and mapping / modding vids while I earnestly work on digging a mapping niche for myself this year.

 

Are my videos childish? Yes. Are my videos unnecessarily sexual and adolescent frequently? Yes. Because that's what I like, it makes me laugh. I'm making the content I wish existed for Doom; I'd rather spend untold hours working on something that makes me laugh constantly while editing it and have no one watch it, than make something that would have mass appeal but I'd end up hating it because it's for the taste of others, not me. 

 

Haha, I never intended to do gameplay stuff anyhoo, I wanted to do video essay stuff like Civvie but for Doom content ... and then I watched people rocking seriously awesome gameplay vids and I'd go, "that looks so fun, I'd like to do that". And then would feel the strain halfway through a series each and every time, lol. My channel is so all over the place because of my attention problems and being easily distracted. At least with essay stuff I've got something to focus on.

 

But enough of my nonsense (sorry 'bout that). I sincerely hope you're able to take a breath, and even get away from Doom for a spell. I like to dig into Spyro the Dragon or Rayman Legends or AOE 2 when I get exhausted with Doom. Some sort of palette cleanser might be in order? I dunno. But I really hope everyone's replies above help to refresh your perspective and stuff. Take care of yourself, matey. :)

 

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I've been an active community member for almost a year and a half now, after lurking for a while and playing and trying to properly figure out the game on my own. I can safely say that connecting with people was the best decision I made. It sounds cliché but for me it really is about the interactions, the relationships you build, the journey. In the grand scheme of things I'm not doing much other than playing stuff, testing maps, and writing long and sometimes pretentious musings on one topic or another. I know nothing about mapping despite promising to myself that I'd start learning the fundamentals and perhaps trying my luck at some point, and I'm generally averse to syntax and code if it's slightly more complex than very basic UMAPINFO stuff. Yet I feel content in that niche I'm occupying, at least for now.

Just wanna echo the point made by @EduardoAndFriends - that you really can't do it all, and that you should put your own well-being first while focusing on the things you like and get you excited, perhaps in a narrower way. At least I think that's the point :D Everyone's got their shortcomings, areas where they could improve, and so on. Just don't let that blindside you and don't tunnel vision on a particular goal to the detriment of collaboration, building bridges, and having a good chuckle with a fellow community member once in a while. Life can be a mess a lot of the times and things almost never go exactly the way we plan, and simply having some mates with common interests around is invaluable; don't take it for granted. I wish you all the best :)

 

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I'm sorry you're feeling down my dude. 
I'm not going to offer advice, more my bits of a story that you may be able to gleam some ideas. 

 

I started streaming on a dare 3/4 years ago, playing Doom 1, and honestly, just enjoyed hanging out with anyone that popped in the chat.

Overtime, I connected with some strange people and they became my friends and introduced me to this wider Doom and retro gaming community. 

Over time, I've realised the monkey is always a problem. As someone who's highly competitive, sure, the data and numbers do bug me from time to time, and probably always will, but, I've always tried to focus on the fun of what the streams are, and enjoy the ride I've been given the opportunity to jump on. 

 

As a marketer, I've always asked clients: "what do you want to achieve",

and I think that's valid here too. 

 

Most in this thread have mentioned this being show business, and if we're talking about the business of this gig, it is show business. What are you offering that is entertaining, and valuable to your audience? Are you welcoming etc. and hosting them whilst they give you their attention and so on. 

If your goal is to "make money" then consider this a business, and make a plan, structure etc. and do research. 

 

If you're in it for the fun, like a lot of us (myself included), then just enjoy it. Like most have said, get involved if you want to, or not, that's all okay. But be happy to have fun with whom ever drops into your streams. 

 

I've visited your streams from time to time, and I don't chat, but I enjoy your gameplay. That's it haha

 

Hope you find your way my friend, but just ask yourself what you're trying to do, make a plan to go from there. But always enjoy it, otherwise, what's the point. 

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