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Critter with Rabies

Is it just me who dislikes Spectres?

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Most maps i've played that include them just either put them at the bottom of damaging pits, in really dark places or heck, both scenarios at once, it's really annoying trying to run around dodging attacks only to bump into seemingly nothing and get a chomp right to the face.

 

I don't find them to be the hardest enemies, i don't even find them the most annoying enemies (Pain elementals and Revenants take that spot), but i just find them to be a really sucky addition to Doom.     

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Yes, it's just you. Nobody in the world could possible hold such an opinion.

Also, I love 'em. One of DOOM's more iconic and intelligently-designed enemies IMO.

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Posted (edited)

I don’t mind them but have noticed as I’ve aged they’re much harder to see now than before. I feel they could’ve made the spectre concept more damning for the player if there was a spectre mode for all types of demons and not just for the pinky. A spectre revenant with partial invisible projectiles for example. 

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38 minutes ago, Jayextee said:

One of DOOM's more iconic and intelligently-designed enemies IMO.

How is a transparent pinky "iconic", exactly?

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Critter with Rabies said:

How is a transparent pinky "iconic", exactly?

It's so iconic you made an entire thread just about it.

 

Spectres are the real silent MVPs of Doom and there should be more of them in every map. And they should have NM speeds. 

Learn to handle the fuzzzzzz.

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While not quite the same, I was a fan of the Nightmare Imp and Nightmare Demon in the console games. I also liked how the modern Doom games incorporated other invisible enemies.

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29 minutes ago, VICE said:

It's so iconic you made an entire thread just about it.

 

Spectres are the real silent MVPs of Doom and there should be more of them in every map. And they should have NM speeds. 

Learn to handle the fuzzzzzz.

Yeah, in retrospect they're not that bad...

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2 hours ago, Critter with Rabies said:

Most maps i've played that include them just either put them at the bottom of damaging pits, in really dark places or heck, both scenarios at once, it's really annoying trying to run around dodging attacks only to bump into seemingly nothing and get a chomp right to the face.

that's the point of them :)

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6 minutes ago, Major Arlene said:

that's the point of them :)

 

Yeah I don't know what OP really wants out of Doom. The original game was pretty much a survival horror maze type deal, even John Romero's comparatively streamlined maps were indicative of this emphasis. The spectre absolutely fits into this conceit -- an enemy you can barely see, lurking in the dark places. It's scary! That's the point!

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49 minutes ago, SPG said:

While not quite the same, I was a fan of the Nightmare Imp and Nightmare Demon in the console games. I also liked how the modern Doom games incorporated other invisible enemies.

 

It would have been neat if the PS1 version's 'Spectre flag' was in the PC version the whole time, although im not sure how PC-style would have done nightmare flag visuals. Still, Spectre and Nightmare status just being the same flag was neat, ANYTHING could be a spectre or a nightmare spectre

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1 hour ago, Critter with Rabies said:

How is a transparent pinky "iconic", exactly?

 

The last room in E1M5, where they first appear, especially if you don't get the Light Amplification Visor. It was and arguably still is an iconic moment.

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Their only reason to exist is to kill you, so no reason to like them.

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I wouldn't really say i "dislike" them, for me it's like there annoying to deal with / use in maps. To me the use of specters in maps i feel like if you throw them into a dark place of the map and let the player go in without amp googles, there dangerous because you can see them (duh). 

 

Like i said before i don't dislike them, there more annoying to deal with / using them in maps.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

@Critter with Rabies Spectres can be Amazing or Terrible depending on how they're placed. Eviternity and Going Down uses them amazing well hiding them in dark areas you rarely see them coming. But I've seen some WADs put them in well lit areas too where there's just no point. I don't mind them the enemy I hate most are 1,000% Chain Guners

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2 minutes ago, Xaser said:

Spectres as-is are pretty interesting, but IMO they only work "by accident". Sounds weird, but lemme explain.

 

Pinkies are a flawed monster in hindsight, since you can just back up a couple of inches when they start to bite and you'll take no damage. They're really only a threat if you let them surround you or box you into a corner, and even then you can be like goku and avoid damage anyway. They really only work if you mix in other dangerous peeps that deal the actual damage, with the pinkies themselves serving as a sort of "space denier" that restricts player movement. Bit of a self plug, but MAP28 of MAYhem 2020 ("The Scar") shows this technique off in its first big fight. They're certainly not useless, but they're pretty bad at main role you'd think they would fill (i.e. "get too close and take damage").

 

Spectres are much more interesting, though -- since they're hard to see in dark areas, they can sneak up on the player to great effect. That said, the player always has a chance to back up if they hear the bite sound or realize they've hit an ""invisible wall"" in time -- i.e. the pinky's biggest weakness is one of the spectres' biggest strengths; it provides the player a reliable method of defense. If you "fix" the pinky by making them attack faster, or charge forward when attacking, or other techniques to make their bite more potent, then spectres suddenly become way too annoying since you can't avoid damage unless you're lucky enough to see them first. You'd basically have to make their attack different than the pinky... which isn't too hard to do, just not very intuitive. ;)

Huh, i never thought of that. Thanks for the insight :3

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1 minute ago, Xaser said:

If you "fix" the pinky by making them attack faster, or charge forward when attacking, or other techniques to make their bite more potent

 Eviternities Nightmare Demons I feel are the best version of them those guys are terrifying when they show up!

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2 hours ago, Critter with Rabies said:

How is a transparent pinky "iconic", exactly?


Others have said it better than me, but I'll have a go.

They're not just transparent are they? Certainly not in their original incarnation, where the 'fuzz' effect is pretty obvious against a clean or light-coloured texture in good light. However, put them in the dark, or against 'grainy' or dark texturing, and it's a whole 'nother kettle of fish. Everything Xaser has said above me rings true; pinkies are mere spacefillers, but spectres add a sprinkle of the unknown into the proceedings. In the right environment you can hear them but not so much see them.

Personally speaking, any time a spectre has blindsided me with its lack of visibility; I like them more. Any time I notice one just as it crosses from noisy texture into a clean one and has a moment of good visibility allowing me to clean-shot it; I like them more. And any time I can hear one but not see clearly and I take a random SSG potshot in what I think is its direction, to hear it snort and hit the floor dead; I like them even more.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one here, but yeah, I'd say they're an iconic monster and one of DOOM's best. And, again as per Xaser before me, a huge improvement to the pinky by way of just one tiny visibility change.

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All I can say is that without the Spectre I could not make my own custom monster variations based on being hard to see, peeve you off, and make the player eternally hate my guts all over one monster: my mascot boy in Doom THOHT "Shadow Knight". The biggest FU based on every annoying aspect in Doom 2.

 

So yeah, Spectre rocks.

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I can see where you'd find them underwhelming and they definitely have the most limited niche gameplay-wise. Their only real unique trait is that they can be hard to see in the dark as they're otherwise identical to pinkies.

 

I think that they're inclusion is still important due to them putting translucent enemies on the table for the engine itself. I don't know if Heretic/Hexen's ghost enemies/powerup would exist if not for that. There's also the shadow acolytes in strife which are kinda the same idea as the spectre but look cooler imo.

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I would argue that they are an interesting reskin compared to the Hell Knight. Demons themselves are powerhouses when they get to you but most of the time you'll notice them easily so it's rare to get seriously caught in a pickle with them. But Specters are a different case depending on the situation. It's the only demon I've ever face where I had to rely on sound the most because they are great at hiding in plain sight by default. Add that with the powerhouse aspect and you can easily get bit hard if you aren't paying attention in the dark.

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 I've very recently swore myself off of using Spectres in my maps. I went back and played some of my map

from 2.5 years ago, which was the last time I'd deployed them, and I realized that they're merely a nuisance

now. They were great the first time one played Doom with them but when I thought about it more, I thought

"cheap parlor trick". And I should know because I'm guilty of deploying other cheap parlor tricks in my past

Doom maps. My litmus test for stuff like this is now "does the joke get old fast?" and if so, stop practicing it.

Unfortunately, my view of the Spectre is that, "ha-ha, very funny M*F'er" and I'm just over them having any

value in maps going forward. Furthermore, the Spectre destroys one of the best things about the Demon;

the character of its facial expressions are just priceless. I like Demons so much, I've DECORATE created

many new variations of my own.

demonstrateTrans.png.96ea839e4ca94fc5eedc662663b71c6d.png

 

You might say I have a Demon fettish...

 

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6 minutes ago, prfunky said:

You might say I have a Demon fettish...

 

[Insert HDoom reference here]

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Posted (edited)

As much as I can appreciate trolling admirers, I've never been scared by Spectres, only annoyed at getting boxed by some barely visible shadows and getting annoyed in a way a map itself often can't invoke. There's nothing I like doing less than the sudden bite noises out of nowhere and probably having less vision than I did 15 years ago just makes things worst.

 

But to be clear, I can definitely appreciate their initial usage in Doom and Doom II. If anything's the issue, it's the tedious clean-up like with pinkies. The most annoying thing is having to punch out like 15 of them in order to have the best chance to get through to somewhere else and I just feel there could be better uses of my time at that point.

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They are my most hated monster too.  They aren't that bad, but everyone has different display configurations and on some setups they are pretty much invisible and just hurt gameplay.  And, some people just throw them in for no reason other than "lol fuzzy demon".  I've said this before, but you should have to have to be issued a license to place spectres in your maps...

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