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fruity lerlups

Does anyone else dislike* getting softlocked out of secrets and kills?

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6 minutes ago, fruity lerlups said:

This is precisely what bothers me, especially when secrets are particularly obscure which the secrets in Scythe 2 can be pretty damn obscure at times.


Anyone remember E2M8 of Wolfenstein3D?


image.png.d5683e23c7609ca30c736a19feb8865a.png

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1 minute ago, Jayextee said:


I'd say so, personally. Like, I get the completionist mindset but I feel (as I've said) it's more of a replay value thing than a first-run thing. Points of no return are fine by me; what's not fine is the idea that there are A and B routes (for example) and one of them will lock you off to the content of another, meaning that you absolutely can't 100% the map no matter what.

Although being the obtuse and bitter gremlin I am, maybe I'll make a map like that anyway someday.

ive sometimes thought about it would be cool to have a map that has like "pick your challenge" kinda thingy, but i'd insist on at least the monsters or something being killed by a crusher.. like "if you take the red key route you gotta deal with X challenge and get the rocket launcher", "if you take blue key route you get Y challenge and get plasma", but i'd be frustrated if that meant there's no way to 100% it at all.. so crushers and maybe a shared secret sector in each little route, that'd be kinda cool actually. Eventually speedrunners would probably figure out which route is the most optimal but it'd make for fun replay value.

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1 hour ago, fruity lerlups said:

i want to experience the whole map and every fight and every kill and every secret.

 

the issue I had with this, which is why I stopped caring much about it, is that simply getting every kill and secret is a pretty "soft" form of completionism. what about noticing every nuance of the detail/design (and in many wads there's a lot of non-obvious observations to make), doing everything that is meaningfully nonlinear in every possible way (like different routes or different ways of getting into an area), trying out fights more than once if they can play different ways even if you don't die, and all that? there's a lot like that. there's so much more to experience in any map beyond just 100%'ing it. 

 

okay, I don't do all of that either, because that would be impossible. but the point is it is possible to get much more out of an observant non-max playthrough that is curious/attentive (and maybe does more of the above) than a max playthrough that kinda goes through the motions and treats it like checking off a list. and when I commit to playing more attentively I suddenly don't need to track down that last imp to feel like I've gotten a "complete experience." Bob can stay.

 

I try not to skip half the map either. (even if that can be a good intrigue builder, like the first time I 40%'d Sunlust map14 and for a while wondered what the rest of it was -- but normally I don't.) but leaving off some kills and a minor secret or two is nbd to me for all the above reasons. 

 

I found value in shifting to a more nuanced picture of what it means to have a full experience. 

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Does anyone else hate Doom players who complain that the way they intent to play a mapset doesn't always result in a gameplay loop where you get 100% on anything? Or, as they say, The way the mapper intended it?

 

Struggle is real folks. Lets discuss this.

 

Outside of the quip, siding with Xaser. Play the way you want to play and don't get so itty-bitty when your preferred way of playing doesn't end up with 100% kills. Playing custom WADS is supposed to bring you fun, not to make you turn into a pseudo-stoic philosopher who has to find meaning behind every mapper's intention.

 

26 minutes ago, fruity lerlups said:

Hence why I asked, "does anyone else hate", not "debate: is it objectively wrong", clearly a lot of people don't mind, for me I like to leave no stone unturned, and I think a great reward for toughing it out of a difficult level is to be able to 100% it, thats my opinion. I didn't crap on anyone who felt otherwise, or crap on designers who made this choice, just expressed that I personally found it frustrating. For context this was Map23 of Scythe 2, brutally hard level, and I found myself very deflated at the end when I couldn't backtrack, thats just the way I play. Maybe its just my autism or whatever i guess.

Hate is such a buzzkill term, it really doesn't describe what you experience.

 

But what new word can replace this, yet gets the same feeling?

 

Oh i know:

 

Does anyone else megaloathe getting softlocked out of secrets and kills?

 

14 minutes ago, Devalaous said:

Everytime this thread/topic pops up, there is always a huge arguement forming between completionists and non-completionists, neither can understand the other's mindset, neither will budge.

Pretty much. Its honestly one of the more boring roundabout debates in regards to Doom. Just enjoy the WAD.

 

I prefer when someone asks what their favorite source port is. Now THAT's a debate.

 

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If I am stood outside the exit I ain't even checking those stats, door's right there son I'm gone.

 

The only exception is secret levels, if I cannot access a secret level passed a certain point then that's the only time I'd care, then I'd just load a save from the start of the level and find the secret exit. If the door closes on an imp then lucky him I guess, he gets to live.

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If a map does an A or B route (and doesn't give a way back to experience the other) I'll just noclip to the second route. I have literally *thousands* of wads registered on Doom Launcher, and im not interested in replaying 70/80/90% of a level ive already beaten just for that extra bit. Generally I play wads once and try to experience everything it has to offer so I can play another thing. If I mained DSDA which has built-in score tables for *every* wad combination you play, maybe I'd play things again, but theres just too much to see and do.

 

There are actually ways you can make routes exclusive for replay value while also allowing 100%, you can crush monsters on Route B via a tripwire in Route A, have items either all appear befroe the split, or in a brief shared branch, and naturally avoid putting in official secrets in the exclusive routes (In Tomb Raider 3, noone ever takes the right, fun, path on River Ganges, as there is a secret on the left unfun path; you cant get the bonus level without all secrets, so your hands are tied. Thus I'd prefer to never have secrets on only path A, B, C etc)

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2 minutes ago, baja blast rd. said:

 

And when I commit to playing more attentively I suddenly don't need to track down that last imp to feel like I've gotten a "complete experience." Bob can stay.

 

I try not to skip half the map either. (even if that can be a good intrigue builder, like the first time I 40%'d Sunlust map14 and for a while wondered what the rest of it was -- but normally I don't.) but leaving off some kills and a minor secret or two is usually nbd to me for all the above reasons. 

I've found sometimes like there are these amazing fights and part of the map that by pursuing 100%, you get to experience, a great example of this is in Rush Map09 The Lava Heart, there is a whole optional fight in a lava pit if you pursue all secrets and its a pretty fun one at that. As mentioned before, the 100% Kills 100% secrets for me is a benchmark or target that pushes me towards finding out all that has been placed in a map, thats why I pursue it, and I get sad when I miss it, I feel like I left a stone unturned.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, fruity lerlups said:

ive sometimes thought about it would be cool to have a map that has like "pick your challenge" kinda thingy


I've done this several times in my own maps. More-recently in the redacted and now-unavailable Bleedthrough it was E3M1's tysonesque challenge offering either the berzerk or the chainsaw, but not both. IIRC my earlier Nex Credo had a couple of these as well. I dunno, as a mapper I just like experimenting with what's 'expected' from typical gameplay, shifting it around a bit. That's probably why assuming mapper's intent from completionism kinda irks me, as it starts to exclude certain concepts and ideas from being valid and I'd rather not throw any babies out with the bathwater, so to speak.

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Just now, Jayextee said:


I've done this several times in my own maps. More-recently in the redacted and now-unavailable Bleedthrough is was E3M1's tysonesque challenge offering either the berzerk or the chainsaw, but not both. IIRC my earlier Nex Credo had a couple of these as well. I dunno, as a mapper I just like experimenting with what's 'expected' from typical gameplay, shifting it around a bit. That's probably why assuming mapper's intent from completionism kinda irks me, as it starts to exclude certain concepts and ideas from being valid and I'd rather not thrown any babies out with the bathwater, so to speak.

ok but is the berserk or chainsaw really that much of a toss up? /jks

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, fruity lerlups said:

ok but is the berserk or chainsaw really that much of a toss up? /jks


They've got their strengths and weaknesses. I tested with both, berzerk was more my speed with its 'one and done' approach but requires accuracy. Chainsawing can be "hold the fire button and hope", occasionally tanking damage from pinkie bites that break through. The entire point was that the choice was similar-but-different, given that the map had to be balanced for both.

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Posted (edited)

I generally think it's trash design if not themed in-universe as to why I can't go back to the rest of the map by the end of the level since I like to think I'm a pretty good resource manager and leave myself stuff to top off before leaving, but a lot of maps insist on permanent one-ways at a certain point with no means of return. I don't care if I miss stuff however, I try to get everything I can on my first playthrough and whatever I miss that's just more content for replays assuming I like the wad enough.

E: I should probably emphasize that my personal complaint is only hostile to playing continuous.

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18 minutes ago, fruity lerlups said:

@Redneckerz you're too late to the flame war and I don't appreciate you trying to get it started again.

I am not doing that. I am talking in jest with some serious bits interspersed. But carry on.

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20 minutes ago, fruity lerlups said:

Well i'll just concede that if you're not a completionist, then maybe the choice to have points of no return are not flaws. We all like different things, I just kinda was taken aback at how sorta, idunno, people talked down to me about this, i didn't expect people to be this heated about it. I suppose there are mappers who have a legitimate grievance with the demand to cater to completionists, I don't want you to feel like you have to change what you do for me, I'm just some kid who likes the challenge. I've already kinda had to pull back on trying to single segment UV-Max stuff, it just became unreasonable :(


You shouldn't expect reasonable good-faith discourse on doomworld :^). Every so often a thread is made from a maxing perspective and the "non-completionists" as have been dubbed gang up on that person, the discourse vultures and wannabe comedians mock their way of playing, throw shade and pointless quips at how completionists and youtubers just trying to play the game a way they like, make some whiny declaration on how they will NEVER appeal to "da completionists !!!!", and then the cycle repeats. 

--

On the matter of points of no return, I think they often serve a narrative purpose and helps to compliment the mood of the map. For instance, I think the dramatic drop in Wispering Winds and how the ambush doesn't start until you actually do something serves the vibe that you've fallen into a trap and the map is essentially waiting to jump on you. For my own casual max of whispering winds, I remember I missed a chaingunner in one of the turret bunkers and therefore I haven't actually uvmaxed the map yet. But I moved onto other maps since I still felt as though I had experienced (and for skill improvement, improved) the map in its entirety, even if the numerical 100% hadn't happened in one run, I still felt like I got the 100% experience. The flipside is maps which hide stuff beyond UVMax for whatever reasons which often warrant longer exploration, newer approaches to fights, more fun routes, etc (for example, in a recent map I placed two items in a place reaching which requires a bit of movement finnese but I didn't tag them as secrets since they would kill the flow of the map in a competitive UVMax demo; or more famously, there are a handful of walrus rooms in a few sunlust maps that aren't secret tagged, but also if a tyson map hides a useful weapon at the end of the map, maybe I'll restart the map to reach the weapon early so I could actually have a fun experience). Wads like Hell Revealed which is often bemoaned by blind playthroughs are often MUCH better when you've routed a UVMax route and decide to take it on (even with saves). All of this is basically a way of saying that intermission screen "100%" isn't always required for feeling like you got a complete experience. It's all upto you how content you feel with the map and how you choose to approach it. Have fun dooming (and gl with the rest of scythe 2 it's not getting any easier heh)  

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3 minutes ago, Lila Feuer said:

I generally think it's trash design if not themed in-universe as to why I can't go back to the rest of the map by the end of the level since I like to think I'm a pretty good resource manager and leave myself stuff to top off before leaving.
 

I think yeah, if the map conveys to me "wanna make sure you got everything before you enter this portal", it can actually be kinda cool, but when its a surprise point of no return it can be frustrating. I mean even literally just having a sign that says "one way trip" behind a portal would be kinda cool. Especially if the map is aesthetically and tonally dualistic, but sometimes that can make you wonder if it should kust be 2 separate maps

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59 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

I prefer when someone asks what their favorite source port is. Now THAT's a debate.

 

Super Turbo Turkey Puncher 3 is the best source port.

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I see that as a dialogue. Sometimes i like to place a single secret health bonus in a really hard to reach place. I know that most people won't care but there's some who just have to get all the secrets and items. How far are you willing to go to satisfy the urge for 100%? In a map you enjoyed up to this point but then you make yourself platform over a death pit for a secret you know is pointless after a difficult fight. If you think "the map would be better without this bs secret," then you missed the point, that's why it's there. When you encounter something like this, I'd like you to ask yourself if it's worth it. If it's worth ruining yourself an otherwise fun map for the final tally. Or maybe, if spite fuels you to complete it, does it strengthen the accomplishment? 

I think it's an interesting question about design. Spite is a powerful motivator. Spite gets shit done. 

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2 minutes ago, Sneezy McGlassFace said:

I see that as a dialogue. Sometimes i like to place a single secret health bonus in a really hard to reach place. I know that most people won't care but there's some who just have to get all the secrets and items. How far are you willing to go to satisfy the urge for 100%? In a map you enjoyed up to this point but then you make yourself platform over a death pit for a secret you know is pointless after a difficult fight. If you think "the map would be better without this bs secret," then you missed the point, that's why it's there. When you encounter something like this, I'd like you to ask yourself if it's worth it. If it's worth ruining yourself an otherwise fun map for the final tally. Or maybe, if spite fuels you to complete it, does it strengthen the accomplishment? 

I think it's an interesting question about design. Spite is a powerful motivator. Spite gets shit done. 

i like working for my secrets but usually in a combat way! platforming in doom is.. already a hassle XD

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Posted (edited)

100% feels optional and never bothers me. What I only find fun about classic doom are the creative and clever level designs and how fun they play out and work.

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During UV-Max run? Yeah, I hate when monsters block other monsters from teleporting, permanently, or enemies get pushed into unreachable areas. During FDA/DWIL run? Lol, all the pissed off martians can stay behind and screw their secret deathtraps, too.

However, I, too, very strongly dislike one-ways with a fury of exactly one thousand suns. But it's mostly because, usually, now 20 medkits, 2 shell boxes, 14 shell pickups, 3 green and 1 blue armors, 5 bullet boxes, 43 ammo clips, 8 rockets, 1 rocket box, 4 cell packs and 3 cells become unavailable, so I can't restock with these in case I need that.

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Isn’t Scythe 2 / MAP23 backtrackable, though? I might remember it wrong, but somehow I remember traversing to earlier parts of the map specifically looking for a secret I had missed.

 

Personally, I usually go for 100%. I like it when mappers see to it you can backtrack, but I also don’t mind that much, if I get softlocked. I usually just IDDST or turn on the ”Show alive monsters”-thingy, and if I must, I idclip back to the point of yes return and never feel bad for doing that. For WADs I really enjoy, I don’t feel bad because I assume I’m gonna replay them some day. For other WADs I don’t feel bad, because they don’t matter that much.

 

I understand completionist mentality, I’m certainly not a stranger to it. Still I do wonder, why it appears so prevalent (or: why do this kind of conversation recur as often as they do). Is it because Youtube-show offs (inadvertently) propagate ”This-and-That or bust” way of playing, or is it just a human thing to suffer from…

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Not really? I think the stats were included at the end in part as a holdover from Wolf3D and the arcade-styled games Doom was intended to be like as far as it plays....but as a pseudo 3D game, you can't exactly play it like one would play a lot of side-scrolling games, particularly in cases where maps get more complex. Especially when the emphasis takes a heavy turn toward exploration, the reasons for caring about 100 percent kills and secrets cease to hold any meaning for me. In either case, it doesn't suit my current playstyle of getting through as many wads as possible.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Monsieur E said:

You shouldn't expect reasonable good-faith discourse on doomworld :^). Every so often a thread is made from a maxing perspective and the "non-completionists" as have been dubbed gang up on that person, the discourse vultures and wannabe comedians mock their way of playing, throw shade and pointless quips at how completionists and youtubers just trying to play the game a way they like, make some whiny declaration on how they will NEVER appeal to "da completionists !!!!", and then the cycle repeats. 

the most oppressed class of people...completionists...

 

a lot of the vitriol is backlash over the fact that, over the years, otherwise decent maps (aa map32 is a wonderful example of this btw) have gotten a lot of shit flung at them primarily because they have lots of possibly esoteric secrets, monsters that aren't always in easy to find locations, or just lots of optional areas. i've seen this happen time and time again, and while op isn't necessarily saying that the maps are bad...it does get annoying. very, very annoying, especially for those of us who don't want to cater to a blind v-max playstyle and might get our maps derided because doing that isn't super straight forward in our maps. it wasn't always tgis bad, but unfortunately with ththe rise of doomtube and streamers, if a youtuber - or any highly respected individual really - plays it and gets frustrated, all their fans are gonna repeat their thoughts on it without ever having played the map, making other people stay away from it. it's a shitty situation that has happened several times.

 

did op deserve to get ganged up on? no. but there's a reason why people dislike the mindset and it has history behind it; it's not a one-dimensional situation where people just don't like different playstyles because why not. nuances like these are lost over time and it does become an us vs them type of deal, but even still, there's root causes for these sorts of things that you're throwing out the window when you boil complicated situations down to the simplest possible viewpoint.

 

with that being said, op, i highly encourage you to not do blind max runs. due to the nature of them, you're basically setting yourself up for frustration. if you wanna max them after, go ahead, but doing it the first time playing is gonna cause issues in a lot of maps. but, you can play however you want. i'm just giving a suggestion. i do agree though that softlocks and not letting ththe player go back from where they came can be...eh. not the greatest, heh. it can be done well, but you gotta take a bit more into consideration than usual

Edited by roadworx

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Posted (edited)

Perhaps I should start documenting points of no returns in some map page articles in the future.

And it's okay to complain about things you don't like here.

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Ahah, I feel you. I refuse to move on to the next map until I get all kills and secrets on the previous one. Especially if it's a level I 100ed before. It can be frustrating for sure, but that frustration is temporary. It'll be banished from my mind as soon as I see the intermission screen with 100% kills and 100% secrets, replaced with satisfaction. And if I don't, the feeling of incompleteness will linger on annoyingly. Items I don't care about as much, but they often end up at 100% too, because I like to go back and pick up everything I can before hitting the exit switch. I'm really into resource management, and for that reason, non-backtrackable levels bother me. Leaving goodies for harder times is a good habit, and spiting people for it looks less than reasonable on mapper's part.

That's the way I like to play vidya - slowly and thoroughly, because it just doesn't feel satisfying to me otherwise. Not because of some online influencers, like some people would assume. :P

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18 hours ago, Doom-X-Machina said:


Anyone remember E2M8 of Wolfenstein3D?


image.png.d5683e23c7609ca30c736a19feb8865a.png

 

That map is actually broken, several of the paths in the pushwall maze aren't set up correctly. If everything worked correctly, you'd have to choose between 100% kills or treasure at the final pushwall, but alas, a huge amount of one ups in that maze cant ever be reached due to errors in pushwall placement. You can probably see a few of those on the map.

 

13 hours ago, RHhe82 said:

I understand completionist mentality, I’m certainly not a stranger to it. Still I do wonder, why it appears so prevalent (or: why do this kind of conversation recur as often as they do). Is it because Youtube-show offs (inadvertently) propagate ”This-and-That or bust” way of playing, or is it just a human thing to suffer from…

 

It is very very common for people to fixate on order, completion, tidy even numbers, ticking off boxes on checklists etc, its why the Xbox 360's achievements took off like they did. Even the 'non-completionists' likely fixate to a similar degree on something else in their lives.

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1 hour ago, Devalaous said:

 

That map is actually broken, several of the paths in the pushwall maze aren't set up correctly. If everything worked correctly, you'd have to choose between 100% kills or treasure at the final pushwall, but alas, a huge amount of one ups in that maze cant ever be reached due to errors in pushwall placement. You can probably see a few of those on the map.

 

Really, to be honest. They shouldn't have marked all of them as a secret. Not sure who thought it was a good idea to do that.

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7 hours ago, roadworx said:

because they have lots of possibly esoteric secrets, monsters that aren't always in easy to find locations, or just lots of optional areas

Isnt this a completely different issue from locking yourself out of secrets and monsters until another playthrough? Or is "permanently missable" implied in this case somehow? Missing esoteric secrets is an effort problem, missing permanently locked ones is mostly luck.

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