Does anyone else wish the Doom Slayer was gender neutral?

[Khaoscythe]

Hahahaha... no.

[WASFDDDDD]

On 7/4/2024 at 2:30 PM, Naarok0fkor said:

It's impossible to be gender neutral with shotguns...

 

On 7/4/2024 at 3:01 PM, xX_Lol6_Xx said:

Nope

 

On 7/5/2024 at 6:12 PM, scalliano said:

In a word: no...

 

On 7/14/2024 at 12:29 PM, Khaoscythe said:

Hahahaha... no.

I have gathered each and every one of you here to ask one, simple question:

 

Why not?

 

Spoiler

I literally wrote exactly as many words in just that message as there are in all of the above quotes combined lol

 

[lainxtp]

yeah bruh they should've made the doom slayer nonbinary (seriously)

[ARMCoder]

On 7/4/2024 at 4:17 PM, OpenRift said:

Doomguy999 also kind of makes a decent point with Tomb Raider. No normal person wishes they were playing as a guy instead of Lara Croft.

 

I've had a similar feeling while playing Mirror's Edge. The main character was quite a relatable girl, and she was a perfect fit for the overall story, better than any dude would be IMO.

[scalliano]

On 7/27/2024 at 3:56 AM, WASFDDDDD said:

Why not?

In a word: canon.

[Milkeno]

Gendered characters make sense in like Disco Elysium where the people are real characters, Doom is shallow with no narrative or meaning to anything because it was designed as being so its just angst designed for mass appeal to profit off subcultures from the 90s. Making the main character gender neutral would be "gemmy" and as it stands Doom is "Coal"

[insanoflex312]

Maybe I'm dumb, but who is Crash?

[Gez]

1 hour ago, insanoflex312 said:

Maybe I'm dumb, but who is Crash? 

One of the playable characters in Quake III Arena. She serves as your tutorial foe/instructor in that game. Her official biography has her as having been the instructor to other Q3A characters "Doom" whose own background basically says that he's Doomguy.

[famicommander]

Just watch Buffy the Vampire Slayer (the TV show, not the movie). Close enough.

[KenaiPhoenix]

What? No, why?

 

The Doomslayer is a guy, and nothing wrong with it. There are female badass character like the previously mentioned Samus, and nobody wish it is a dude or that someone take part of its identity as a female heavy armor ass kicking mercenary. The same applies for the DoomSlayer

[esselfortium]

Sure, why not. Doomguy is everyone, which is much cooler than Doom Slayer being some guy with a god complex and a funko pop collection or whatever.

[hexagonopus]

The distinction between the Doom Slayer and the original Doom Marine must be made.

 

The OG Doom Marine was, in many ways, more explicitly gendered than the Slayer is. You saw his face more often (not only because it was a part of the HUD), and the supplementary material characterized him in a more grounded, specific way (references to like, being in the military, watching "restricted flicks", etc, that is more specific to being a Real Person with a Specific Life). This is in contrast to the Slayer who is more sort of elemental and anonymous. You very rarely see his face, and everything that goes towards characterizing him is very high-concept and lacking in any grounded identity.

 

On the other hand, the Marine was only ever referred to in the 2nd person, as you. Descriptions of him always identify the player, whose gender cannot be determined, and so he was, in a very real sense, not gendered. I've been using "he/him" pronouns to refer to the Doom Marine here, but in fact, there is no textual examples of this within the OG Dooms and their supplementary material, as far as I'm aware. In a lot of ways, the more human backstory given to the Marine reads more as a TTRPG character backstory than anything. This is in stark contrast to the Slayer, who is CONSTANTLY identified in the third person ("He cannot be allowed to leave this place. He would ruin everything", "those that tasted the bite of his sword named him the Doom Slayer", etc.). The Slayer is also characterized in less fluid terms. Exposition regarding him is portrayed less like a TTRPG scenario intro and more like ...scripture? All of this summary is certainly referring to a specific Guy and not just to "You, the Player".

 

The Doom Marine was molded to their player, and so essentially was gender neutral, in a sort of universalist sense, but he was also more identifiably "human" with a visible face. Other mundane backstory elements paint him more explicitly as a Real Human Guy.

 

The Slayer, meanwhile, is distinct from the player, his characterization is set in stone and he is referred to in the third-person rather than second-person. But his identity is also more abstract and mechanical, in a lot of ways, serving less to grant him a gendered identity and more to direct him on a path of essentially inhuman (and nongendered) violence

 

tl;dr - they're both non-binary, and also acespec, obviously, and pacman is non-binary too, and I can PROVE IT

 

actual tl;dr - it's complicated

[MrFlibble]

On 8/21/2024 at 1:24 AM, hexagonopus said:

On the other hand, the Marine was only ever referred to in the 2nd person, as you. Descriptions of him always identify the player, whose gender cannot be determined, and so he was, in a very real sense, not gendered

 

On 8/21/2024 at 1:24 AM, hexagonopus said:

The Doom Marine was molded to their player, and so essentially was gender neutral, in a sort of universalist sense

I believe that the mode of describing a video game character in the second person was a pretty widespread trope back in the early 90s. Here's just a few other examples (emphasis added):

Quote

You are Snake Logan, a top CIA operative who likes to do things his own way. Metro City has fallen under the attack of hideous mutants and your mission is to fly recon over the city and report back. While circling over the city you're shot down by hostile forces and forced to crash land on the streets of Metro. Grabbing what supplies you can find you are out to discover the source of these mutants and especially the guy who shot you down! (Bio Menace)

Quote

You play the role of Billy Blaze, eight year-old kid genius who builds an interstellar ship when not working at home on his college fast-track degree. Among other household objects, Billy uses his Nintendo joystick for flight control and his mom's vacuum cleaner (heavily modified) for his ship's ion propulsion system (with pile height adjustment). (Commander Keen)

Quote

The story: You're William J. "B.J." Blazkowicz, the Allies' bad boy of espionage and a terminal action seeker. Your mission was to infiltrate the Nazi fortress Castle Hollehammer and find the plans for Operation Eisenfaust, the Nazi's blueprint for building the perfect army. Rumors are that deep within the castle the diabolical Dr. Schabbs has perfected a technique for building a fierce army from the bodies of the dead. It's so far removed from reality that it would seem silly if it wasn't so sick. But what if it were true? (Wolfenstein 3-D)

Quote

You're agent 006, top agent of the government's secret organization committed to protecting the world against terrorists and power-mad criminals. Your mission is to parachute into a high -security island outpost and secure the plans to the ultimate satellite laser weapon, which was recently stolen from the government. In the wrong hands this weapon could mean world control by the DVS, the world's most dangerous terrorist organization. You will isolated from outside help as you parachute into the secret island fortress of the DVS. You will need to knock out the vast security system, bypass dozens of extreme traps, overcome hundreds of multi-talented guards (such as thugs, ninjas, sharp-shooters, knife throwers, sentries, dogs, and many robots), and find the missing blue prints. If possible, take out the devious leader of the DVS (sorry, no file picture available). (Secret Agent)

Quote

As Baron Baldric, you are charged with keeping peace for all the common folk of the land. But when the grand Lazarine Towers are overcome with dark forces and creatures, casting an evil shadow over the land, you must wield your somewhat magical staff and set out to set things right. (Frankly, you don't want the job, but there's currently a shortage of young warrior types around.) The Baron is a lovable character who will win your heart with his many animations and mannerisms. But beware, this not-so-young hero guy can still kick a little bootie if he has to! He wields a magic staff like nobody's business. (Mystic Towers)

However, I do not believe that this was done to make players identify more with the character in some psychological sense, it was just a reflection of the fact that playing any of these games, you are directly controlling the respective main character, so you are that character, in a way, by the merit of making decisions and taking action in that character's boots.

 

Neither does the use of the second person imply that any of these characters were intended to be gender neutral for any reason -- as far as I can tell, they're all unambiguously male in the above examples. Let's not forget that back in the early 90s the target audience of video games was assumed to be predominantly male, although of course this did not completely preclude the existence of female characters before Lara Croft made that a mainstream thing. I'll also reiterate here what I said before, namely that the Doom Bible had planned four playable characters, two male and two female, each with their own stats. Tom Hall later recycled this idea in Rise of the Triad.

[Doom reboot World]

59 minutes ago, MrFlibble said:

Let's not forget that back in the early 90s the target audience of video games was assumed to be predominantly male

In general, computer and console games are still mostly enjoyed by men. In the sphere of mobile casual games alone, women make up about 50%. In the same Doom communities, from classic to modern, it is mainly men who write and very, very few women

[Gez]

1 hour ago, MrFlibble said:

Here's just a few other examples (emphasis added):

Note that four of these examples give a precise identity (a name), the odd one out gives a more vague identity (a codename). Doom just went "you're a marine, one of Earth's toughest".

 

So Doom went beyond most other games, because of that lack of a name. In Hovertank 3D, you were Brick Sledge, a name that seems right out of that one Mystery Science Theater clip. In Dangerous Dave, you are, well, Dangerous Dave. In Rescue Rover, you are Roger. In Catacomb series, you are Petton Everhail. In Wolf 3D, you are William J. Blazkowicz. In Orcs & Elves, you are Elli. In Quake II, you are Bitterman. In Rage, you are Nicholas Raine.

 

So Doom (and Quake I) are kind of exceptions in id Software's catalog in that the protagonist is not given a name. In the older games, you got a name; in the newer games, you got a name. For Doom, they were on the record that it was "you, the player" and that's why we didn't get an official name for Doomguy, no matter what book and movie adaptations would have you believe.

 

1 hour ago, MrFlibble said:

as far as I can tell, they're all unambiguously male in the above examples.

I'd argue that agent 006 can be ambiguous here. The others are given names, three of them even have the "his" pronoun used in their description (good old BJ doesn't, but he does get to be described as "the bad boy of espionage").

[Jayextee]

The cool thing about the OG protagonist of DOOM, is that it's a completely blank slate; and players can assume themselves (or whatever selves they damn wish) into the role, for total immersion.

 

Unless that self is anything but a hypermasculine macho manly-man, it would appear to some.

[esselfortium]

1 hour ago, Doom reboot World said:

In general, computer and console games are still mostly enjoyed by men. In the sphere of mobile casual games alone, women make up about 50%. In the same Doom communities, from classic to modern, it is mainly men who write and very, very few women

That's okay, we make up for it by being disproportionately responsible for your favorite wads and source ports

[Egg Boy]

Wouldn't mind. I have adopted the concept that the classic "Doom Guy" is a gender neutral figure as a player stand in. The Doom Slayer however is a character that exists in the world of Doom 2016 and Eternal. He is referred to by different characters and doesn't just exist as an abstract avatar to experience the game through. That being said, I don't think much at all would be lost if the only thing that changed was what pronouns the character was referred to as, or how the character looked, or whatever. Nothing of note would be lost, the Slayer's gender doesn't really play into anything about them.

[Rykzeon]

I wonder how much size it would take to add more assets exclusively for female characters. And if players are okay for it. Honestly I don't bother much about the player character's gender unless the game is dating sim or more advantage can be obtained if you select another gender like Stardew Valley.

[Deadwing]

Yeah, would have no problem with playing as a different "doomguy", especially a woman

[Legatron17]

...no

[Doom reboot World]

4 hours ago, esselfortium said:

That's okay, we make up for it by being disproportionately responsible for your favorite wads and source ports

I didn't understand the context of what this was about, but oh well. My point was that many people write that in the 90s games were for men, although in 2024 most of the players are still men, not 50/50. It's banal biology, men and women have different interests

[esselfortium]

My point was, phrased only slightly facetiously in my post above, that there are a lot of women who play and create things for Doom. If you've ever used a ZDoom-based source port, for instance, you can thank Marisa Heit. What biological differences are you thinking of that determine which video games someone wants to play?

[MrFlibble]

6 minutes ago, esselfortium said:

What biological differences are you thinking of that affect which video games someone wants to play?

Well, there are studies that point to different video game genre preferences in males and females:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8141853/

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/273345813_Examining_the_Role_of_Gender_in_Video_Game_Usage_Preference_and_Behavior#:~:text=The disparity between genders was,%2C educational%2C and simulation genres (

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/55870539.pdf

 

I am not qualified to judge how accurate the procedures employed in these studies and their results are. Of course, nothing of this suggests that there may be no female Doom players (for example), or that the share of female Doom (of FPS in general) players is disproportionately small. Moreover, the third paper appears to suggest that if you're into a specific genre or game, differences between males and females are mostly negligible. But on the whole, differences apparently do exist and the ratio is likely indeed not 50/50 like @Doom reboot World said.

 

[HiMyNameIsChair]

8 minutes ago, Doom reboot World said:

in 2024 most of the players are still men, not 50/50. It's banal biology, men and women have different interests

 

What? lol.

 

uh, no biology has literally nothing to do with it, there is no innate biological trait that drives anyone to any particular interest. if the phrase you're looking for is Gender norms or Gender roles,... i have bad news lol. Gender norms don't mean shit and quite frankly: change dramatically over time. Hell, there was a stretch of time in the 18th and arguably even parts of the 19th century where men's fashion was actually quite flamboyant and femme. also fun fact, a lot of the early pioneers of computer science were Women, a field that is now considered male-dominant. Gender roles & norms are more or less a false construct, and are often learned or forced onto people by society. They are not innate traits.

 

Aside from overlooking a massive amount of female community members, many of whom are prominent creators in our spaces and hell some I see on this forum every single day, it also overlooks well, everyone else who is not a dude lol.

 

As one of many Nonbinary Doom community members (which there are way more than I think most would assume), damn fuck me then, I guess I don't exist lol. guess I'll just uninstall the game.

[esselfortium]

To be clear, I'm not even saying that there's a 50/50 split or anything like that, just that there are a good number of women in this community.

 

I'd also argue that the different trends in interests are more social than biological. It's worth remembering that the field of computer programming was historically considered women's work until around the late 70s when it stopped being looked at as similar to secretarial jobs. Biology didn't suddenly change, the social situation changed.

[Doom reboot World]

12 minutes ago, esselfortium said:

My point was, phrased only slightly facetiously in my post above, that there are a lot of women who play and create things for Doom. If you've ever used a ZDoom-based source port, for instance, you can thank Marisa Heit. What biological differences are you thinking of that determine which video games someone wants to play?

 

1.This doesn't change the fact that they are incredibly few in number compared to men. I don't think that women make up even 5% of the total number of people who are into Doom (from doom 1993 to doom tda)

 

2. There is a hypothesis of prenatal testosterone, which affects brain development in the womb. If there is a lot of testosterone, then the brain develops according to the "male" type (interest in properties or patterns, and less interest in social things), and if there is little testosterone, then according to the "female" type (less interest in patterns and a strong interest in social things). That is why, for example, there are few women in IT, physics, chess, and video games, they are interested in other things, or rather, those related to social things. And yes, this is neither good nor bad, it is just such a phenomenon.

https://core.ac.uk/reader/28972225?utm_source=linkout

[Doom reboot World]

7 minutes ago, HiMyNameIsChair said:

 

What? lol.

uh, no biology has literally nothing to do with it, there is no innate biological trait that drives anyone to any particular interest.

 

Read Simon Baron-Cohen's hypothesis about prenatal testosterone. This is not just a hypothesis without evidence, a test was conducted on children who were only a couple of months old, and they were given pictures of faces and geometric figures. Boys looked at geometric figures longer than girls, while the opposite was true for faces - boys looked less than girls. There was a correlation of almost one

 

Quote

Aside from overlooking a massive amount of female community members, many of whom are prominent creators in our spaces and hell some I see on this forum every single day, it also overlooks well, everyone else who is not a dude lol.

 

My thesis, again, was that there are simply fewer women than men in computer games than women, and not that "women are bad" and they don't exist.

[Major Arlene]

2 hours ago, esselfortium said:

To be clear, I'm not even saying that there's a 50/50 split or anything like that, just that there are a good number of women in this community.

I'm actually working on doing a vid about this in the coming weeks, but the gist is that there's a lot of reasons why it's perceived that there's less women in gaming altogether, although the split overall in the industry is pretty close to 50/50, and that that total doesn't necessarily correlate to every game/genre/etc.

 

and to echo a bunch of other people on this thread: interests are absolutely sociological rather than biological. gender roles, perceived gender roles, misogyny, and even other media depictions about video game/nerd culture all have created an uphill climb for women who want to get into video games. and when they become developers, sometimes their names aren't even in the credits.

 

edit: as I've been doing research for this video I'll also echo there's no non-binary representation and I'm not paying Statista $150 a month to find out what their survey methodology is!

 

second edit: I've got anecdotal evidence in spades from my Youtube channel about how women get treated in the gaming space to back up why they aren't seen/heard from as often!

Edited August 22 by Major Arlene

[Doom reboot World]

1 hour ago, Major Arlene said:

and to echo a bunch of other people on this thread: interests are absolutely sociological rather than biological. gender roles, perceived gender roles, misogyny, and even other media depictions about video game/nerd culture all have created an uphill climb for women who want to get into video games. and when they become developers, sometimes their names aren't even in the credits.

I don't understand why we should ignore the biological aspect? The biological nature of the question has a more down-to-earth argumentation with the research methodology. And your "sociological" methods can be interpreted in any way: "We see fewer women in games not because there are fewer of them compared to men, but because they do not disclose it / women were oppressed before / women are afraid of men, etc.

Here people seem to ignore biology, but without any argumentation.