Who is the most horribly misunderstood character in fiction? I'll start

[NoName667]

D-Fens from Falling Down was never meant to be looked at sympathetically. (Christ he admits he's the bad guy at the end of the movie.) It's shown that he is abusive to his family, an ass to the people around him, and has a deluded sense of self-importance. He held up a gun to fast food workers because the burger they gave him didn't look exactly as advertised. (He says "The customer is always right" in that scene too) He blows up a fucking construction sight because he is mad that they mildly inconvenience him. He views everything around him as "out to get him" when he sees an African american earlier in the film protesting outside a bank due to racism. And he doesn't care. He sees himself as this grand victim of society when that is simply not true. D-Fens is a self-absorbed, narsacistic, abusive psychopath and everyone sympathizes with him for some reason. Lets quote the end of the movie. "Is this what this is all about? Your made cause you got lied to? Listen, they lie to everyone pal they lie to the fishes, but that doesn't give you the right to do what he did today."

[NoName667]

This list might go on forever with the lack of media literacy nowadays...

[dasho]

Seems like you just wanted to complain about Falling Down

[NoName667]

14 minutes ago, dasho said:

Seems like you just wanted to complain about Falling Down

I just gave an example. It's to start the conversation and get the ball rolling.

[Mr. Freeze]

 

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

1 hour ago, NoName667 said:

This list might go on forever with the lack of media literacy nowadays...

People should stop watching movies and go work at those construction sights you mentioned. Those narsacists.

[libre-lettuce-pie]

Frankenstein's monster, sadly ignorant normies keep calling Frankenstein's monster Frankenstein :'(


Real answer: Probably nicole from class of `09, I think her character reading is pretty straight forward and easy to see but since class of '09 leans tward "edgy" she gets grouped in with "funny evil characters" like Eric Cartman by people too immature to understand class of '09.

Edited July 13 by Milkeno : Added a real awnser

[mrthejoshmon]

The character of Duke Nukem, specifically the character himself, isn't a parody.

 

The world itself clearly is but the character of Duke is delivered so deadpan sincerely that I think they forgot what whacky shit they just put him in.

[Gez]

9 minutes ago, mrthejoshmon said:

The character of Duke Nukem, specifically the character himself, isn't a parody.

He's more of a caricature than a parody. (Except perhaps in DNF. Though I'd argue that it's DNF itself that is a parody of a Duke Nukem game.)

 

A caricature is an exaggeration and a simplification; the character is reduced to its essential traits, which are over-emphasized.

 

A parody, on the other hand, is a mockery. The essential traits are removed entirely and replaced by superficial approximations, creating an unflattering disconnect.

 

For example, a caricature of badassness would be the Chuck Norris Facts. A parody of badassness would be a braggard who's actually a wimp.

 

 

 

[Xcalibur]

On 7/12/2024 at 11:34 PM, NoName667 said:

D-Fens from Falling Down was never meant to be looked at sympathetically. (Christ he admits he's the bad guy at the end of the movie.) It's shown that he is abusive to his family, an ass to the people around him, and has a deluded sense of self-importance. He held up a gun to fast food workers because the burger they gave him didn't look exactly as advertised. (He says "The customer is always right" in that scene too) He blows up a fucking construction sight because he is mad that they mildly inconvenience him. He views everything around him as "out to get him" when he sees an African american earlier in the film protesting outside a bank due to racism. And he doesn't care. He sees himself as this grand victim of society when that is simply not true. D-Fens is a self-absorbed, narsacistic, abusive psychopath and everyone sympathizes with him for some reason. Lets quote the end of the movie. "Is this what this is all about? Your made cause you got lied to? Listen, they lie to everyone pal they lie to the fishes, but that doesn't give you the right to do what he did today."

 

You don't seem to get that film.

 

Of course he's not flawless, not many humans are. But his wife stated that the judge wanted to "make an example out of him" and that he was treated unjustly by the courts. The construction site wasn't just "mildly inconveniencing him", it was a massive inconvenience, and the whole operation was unnecessary and involved corruption, kickbacks & embezzling. He pulled the gat on the fast food place because they refused to serve breakfast, then goes on a rant on how the soggy, flat, POS burger doesn't look "exactly as advertised", or even remotely as advertised for that matter.

 

Moreover, the movie is not about these specific incidents, or the gangbangers, or the rich golfers being dicks, the neo-nazi, and so on. Falling Down is offering a larger social commentary, it's a critique on a society that has lost its sense of trust & cohesion, where people are exploited & abused, as we pretend that everything's fine. The whole point of the main character is that he tried to do what society asked of him, he tried his hardest to be a square, responsible, 9-5 white-collar worker and family man, and achieves that for a time. But his dysfunctional, decaying society takes it all away from him, until he finally hits a breaking point and rebels violently against all the injustices & absurdities of daily life. The fake construction work and the traffic jam it caused, getting snubbed at the fast food place, etc etc are just proverbial last straws. He's put up with things like this countless times, now he's had enough.

 

And I have to say, Falling Down was right on point and aged like fine wine. The decline of the US was not so obvious back in 1993, but now it's pervasive.

 

For more info and a detailed review:

 

[yakfak]

op's take on this film is way closer to my own! dilbert-like guy who thinks the whole of society should serve him melts down in the face of micro-aggression

it doesn't describe the breakdown of civilisation but someone reacting to a lapse in privilege imo

[Naarok0fkor]

I would go for the God-emperor of Dune...

[NoName667]

On 7/14/2024 at 1:43 AM, Xcalibur said:

 

You don't seem to get that film.

 

Of course he's not flawless, not many humans are. But his wife stated that the judge wanted to "make an example out of him" and that he was treated unjustly by the courts. The construction site wasn't just "mildly inconveniencing him", it was a massive inconvenience, and the whole operation was unnecessary and involved corruption, kickbacks & embezzling. He pulled the gat on the fast food place because they refused to serve breakfast, then goes on a rant on how the soggy, flat, POS burger doesn't look "exactly as advertised", or even remotely as advertised for that matter.

 

Moreover, the movie is not about these specific incidents, or the gangbangers, or the rich golfers being dicks, the neo-nazi, and so on. Falling Down is offering a larger social commentary, it's a critique on a society that has lost its sense of trust & cohesion, where people are exploited & abused, as we pretend that everything's fine. The whole point of the main character is that he tried to do what society asked of him, he tried his hardest to be a square, responsible, 9-5 white-collar worker and family man, and achieves that for a time. But his dysfunctional, decaying society takes it all away from him, until he finally hits a breaking point and rebels violently against all the injustices & absurdities of daily life. The fake construction work and the traffic jam it caused, getting snubbed at the fast food place, etc etc are just proverbial last straws. He's put up with things like this countless times, now he's had enough.

 

And I have to say, Falling Down was right on point and aged like fine wine. The decline of the US was not so obvious back in 1993, but now it's pervasive.

 

For more info and a detailed review:

 

Moon isn't a movie critic though.

[TheMagicMushroomMan]

On 7/14/2024 at 12:04 PM, yakfak said:

dilbert-like guy

I always thought he looked more like the kid from Polar Express.

[Xcalibur]

2 hours ago, NoName667 said:

Moon isn't a movie critic though.

 

You don't necessarily need a fancy title to do things.

 

Anyway, there's a difference between personal views of a film, versus what a film set out to do. You might see Foster/D-Fens as a villain, and you're entitled to that. However, the film clearly presents him as an antihero more than anything. It's meant to be critical commentary on the precipitous decline of the US/West, and I think that's the most divisive issue -- whether you agree with that premise, or still have faith in our institutions.

[LexiMax]

On 7/15/2024 at 9:38 PM, Xcalibur said:

However, the film clearly presents him as an antihero more than anything. It's meant to be critical commentary on the precipitous decline of the US/West, and I think that's the most divisive issue -- whether you agree with that premise, or still have faith in our institutions.

 

I've seen that sort of analysis of Foster before in casting him as the anti-hero, and they all hit one very specific roadblock - the fact that Foster's mission from minute one is to stalk his ex-wife.  It also doesn't foot with the ending, where it's demonstrated through the video flashback that he wasn't a goodie two shoes who had one bad day, but had anger issues going back years.

 

The actual take-away from the movie is what the cop tells Foster - the world is full of bullshit, but that's not an excuse to start a rampage.  You can argue over how widely applicable that advice is, but it's almost certainly true for a man like Foster - someone with a long career in a lucrative industry who had only been out of work for a month.  He could have gone to therapy to work on his anger and found another job - maybe using that time that he spent trying to keep up the charade with his mother.

Edited July 19 by LexiMax

[xdarkmasterx]

Well, you see, people are saying that *complex character* is inspiring, when any intelligent person can see he's actually evil-scary-bad. Case closed

[Skullzrawk9]

I’m surprised no one has mentioned Rorschach from Watchmen.

[SitarA]

 

 

 

 

[LexiMax]

41 minutes ago, Skullzrawk9 said:

I’m surprised no one has mentioned Rorschach from Watchmen.

 

This is another good one.

 

All of the heroes in Watchmen are seriously flawed individuals.  Rorschach was modeled on Batman, but portrayed as how someone with Batman's mentality would turn out in real life, not a billionaire playboy driven by his loss, but a down on his luck misanthrope whose lust for vigilantism comes at the cost of his humanity.  He wanders the streets hating society, leeching off of his "friends", and not caring if he lives or dies.

 

It's really unfortunate that the movie dialed down on the misanthropy, because he was never intended to be aspirational, but instead a self-righteous and doomed sociopath.  In the comics, Nite Owl and Silk Spectre don't even mourn him when he dies, preferring to mutually comfort each other over their shared trauma.

Edited July 19 by LexiMax

[Coopersville]

Perhaps Master Chief based on all the film and television flops the Halo franchise has produced. 

[Xcalibur]

On 7/18/2024 at 10:03 PM, LexiMax said:

 

I've seen that sort of analysis of Foster before in casting him as the anti-hero, and they all hit one very specific roadblock - the fact that Foster's mission from minute one is to stalk his ex-wife.  It also doesn't foot with the ending, where it's demonstrated through the video flashback that he wasn't a goodie two shoes who had one bad day, but had anger issues going back years.

 

The actual take-away from the movie is what the cop tells Foster - the world is full of bullshit, but that's not an excuse to start a rampage.  You can argue over how widely applicable that advice is, but it's almost certainly true for a man like Foster - someone with a long career in a lucrative industry who had only been out of work for a month.  He could have gone to therapy to work on his anger and found another job - maybe using that time that he spent trying to keep up the charade with his mother.

 

As I said, there's dialogue in which his ex-wife said the judge "made an example out of him", that the restraining order was excessive, and so on. That's not to say Foster/D-Fens didn't have flaws, if anything the flashback shows that there's moral ambiguity throughout, that the life he wants back was far from perfect. But, wanting to be re-united with his family from whom he was wrongfully separated is an understandable motive, and "stalking" is the most negative way to frame that, especially given that dialogue and other evidence.

 

Good point regarding therapy, but still. The movie doesn't present him as a maniac going on a reign of terror, with the heroes trying to stop him. Rather, you're encouraged to see it from his perspective, how an honest hard-working square can be pushed over the edge, in a world where society is declining and right & wrong are a bit muddled.

[LexiMax]

On 7/21/2024 at 9:31 PM, Xcalibur said:

The movie doesn't present him as a maniac going on a reign of terror, with the heroes trying to stop him. Rather, you're encouraged to see it from his perspective, how an honest hard-working square can be pushed over the edge, in a world where society is declining and right & wrong are a bit muddled. 

 

I would posit that Foster was actually based on the trope of a jilted government worker "Going Postal" which was very much in the public consciousness at the time.  And in my personal opinion, he's also very much coded as an abusive ex, someone who is so focused on what he wants and what he's entitled to the point where he wakes up one day and says "You know what, I'm just going to ignore that restraining order" while leaving a path of destruction in his wake.

 

You might empathize with his inability to cope with modern life in some way, but you weren't supposed to root for him.  I see his estranged wife as being incredibly fortunate to have separated from him when she did, as based on the actions we see Foster take during the movie she dodged a bullet, both metaphorically and literally.

Edited July 23 by LexiMax

[Xcalibur]

5 hours ago, LexiMax said:

 

I would posit that Foster was actually based on the trope of a jilted government worker "Going Postal" which was very much in the public consciousness at the time.  And in my personal opinion, he's also very much coded as an abusive ex, someone who is so focused on what he wants and what he's entitled to the point where he wakes up one day and says "You know what, I'm just going to ignore that restraining order" while leaving a path of destruction in his wake.

 

You might empathize with his inability to cope with modern life in some way, but you weren't supposed to root for him.  I see his estranged wife as being incredibly fortunate to have separated from him when she did, as based on the actions we see Foster take during the movie she dodged a bullet, both metaphorically and literally.

 

You're not exactly wrong, but you're seeing this from one specific angle. I think those elements are there to introduce a bit of moral ambiguity, complexity and realism to the character. There's plenty of other examples I could cite, in which he gets challenged and provoked by various unsavory characters during his rampage, and generally only attacks people for being hostile or obstructive. There's also a scene where the black guy is protesting the bank for rejecting his loan/mortgage application (or w/e it was), quoting their words, "not economically viable" until getting arrested. It's a passing side-show, but he's sort of presented as a parallel to Foster, and the mini-story there reinforces the overall narrative of societal critique.

 

I'm not arguing that Foster is blameless by any means. Rather, it's that the film's message is not centered on "abusive nutcase goes postal" (although you can read that into it), but rather, the emphasis is on "how a NORP can fly off the handle due to societal dysfunction (+ his own issues)".

[SpartaKiss]

This one was a funny one. My local polling came back with Batman and Joker being top choices. My answer is clear out in left field because I have a past dealing with aspiring novelist tropes so character analysis to me might be skewed compared to other opinions. The choice I was stuck with was Final Fantasy 8 Squall because its a fairly common one I  witness whenever that type of fictional subject conversation is broached.

 

The main reasons I can clamp down on the topic of disliking the character in general, disliking the game in general, and other similar tropes. Its an unusual and comical observation for me to witness in such chatting because a fair number of people seem to think that some of personality types and traits of the FF8 cast and Squall himself are too fictional in mannerisms. And unfortunately I have the complete opposite perception of finding the main character and cast to probably be the most realistic type of fictional characters that would appear IRL rather than the molding of a more typical FF type setting.  For myself character of Squall so ridiculously humorous his main tropes... Well I might as well just beam myself into the TV. The broody "whatever" flinging, sword fanatic that also played a nerdy trading card battle game was stupidly accurate. Even right down to the trope of being a reluctant, eye-rolling leader trope was stupidly accurate. The number of Selphie type personalities, Zels, Rinoas, Quistis, and even Irvine personality types I've met IRL is obscene. Laguna types? Oh yeah, they're abundant too. Lets not even broach the subject of Headmaster Cid type personalities you'll run across in life. 

 

My weird take is that, I was gonna just focus on Squall, but frankly its the entire game, is that FF8 had the problem of being too realistic in character interactions rather being more akin to classical FF type character interactions represented during PSX and later titles.

Edited July 24 by SpartaKiss

[DMPhobos]

On 7/19/2024 at 11:43 AM, LexiMax said:

 

This is another good one.

 

All of the heroes in Watchmen are seriously flawed individuals.  Rorschach was modeled on Batman, but portrayed as how someone with Batman's mentality would turn out in real life, not a billionaire playboy driven by his loss, but a down on his luck misanthrope whose lust for vigilantism comes at the cost of his humanity.  He wanders the streets hating society, leeching off of his "friends", and not caring if he lives or dies.

 

It's really unfortunate that the movie dialed down on the misanthropy, because he was never intended to be aspirational, but instead a self-righteous and doomed sociopath.  In the comics, Nite Owl and Silk Spectre don't even mourn him when he dies, preferring to mutually comfort each other over their shared trauma.

He wasn't modelled after Batman, he's modelled after "The Question" and more specifically, "Mr A", both Steve Ditko's characters who was really into a philosophy called objectivism. Rorshack's is written as an extreme version of a Ditko's character and dials his objectivist views to the 11, to the point of coming as extremely hateful and selfish and even being abusive to the people that are considered his "friends". He's not willing to compromise or soften his attitude because his views and beliefs come first above everything else no matter what, even if it means losing his friends or letting millions die in a nuclear apocalypse.

 

I do agree that Rorshack's is a very misunderstood character, he's holds some really twisted extreme views, but that's often misunderstood, specially after the movie which portrays him in a more positive way, which is not suprising considering the director often is accused of inserting objectivist views on his films. 

[EraserheadBaby]

Obviously it's me.  I mean, did anyone understand what I was saying in that movie?

[SitarA]

Show some respect to my boy.

^{Took this snap straight from the episode btw, god I love rewatching this show and in particular the Frieza saga.}

 

[LexiMax]

On 7/23/2024 at 10:35 PM, Xcalibur said:

You're not exactly wrong, but you're seeing this from one specific angle.

 

I don't think the ending works at all unless you see Foster as the villain.  The juxtaposition of him putting down the gun he is holding his family hostage with in order to enjoy a family moment is meant to horrify you.  "I'm the bad guy" is supposed to be a genuine revelation to him - the mythologizing he had been doing in his head the whole movie suddenly crumbling to dust.

 

It turns out that there is a nice video out there that shows the connective tissue between Joker, Falling Down, and a few others like There Will Be Blood and Network.

 

 

[Xcalibur]

14 hours ago, LexiMax said:

 

I don't think the ending works at all unless you see Foster as the villain.  The juxtaposition of him putting down the gun he is holding his family hostage with in order to enjoy a family moment is meant to horrify you.  "I'm the bad guy" is supposed to be a genuine revelation to him - the mythologizing he had been doing in his head the whole movie suddenly crumbling to dust.

 

It turns out that there is a nice video out there that shows the connective tissue between Joker, Falling Down, and a few others like There Will Be Blood and Network.

 

 

That was an off-putting scene for sure, but there are various ways to interpret things. Another reading is that he gets pushed into committing villainous acts during his cathartic rampage, and only realizes too late that he's gone too far, that in trying to fight injustice, he's become unjust himself.

 

I appreciate the youtube link, it seems interesting enough although I haven't watched through. But I will say that media can be an outlet, a way of expressing things that are not allowed in polite society, and as a way to experiment with boundaries and core assumptions. That's true for the Dissident Right, and for other demographics too.

 

Here's another quality review of Falling Down, from a youtuber who's more exclusively focused on movies/shows and does quality content:

 

 

Edited August 2 by Xcalibur