Curse of Blood - a 32 map megawad - RC1 released!

[Degree23]

I would not object to that Lost Soul replacement having less health. It's more that this monster is damned annoying, rather than difficult.

 

3 hours ago, waverider said:

 

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Also, do let me know if I should fix up Map31's secret exit puzzle so that would get easier to solve.

 

 

Spoiler

I've kind of always taken a view that secret maps are pretty much "anything goes". You don't need to beat them to progress in the WAD, so it's up to you if you go into them. I certainly wouldn't change anything based on my feedback alone. The player is trying to find the super secret map, it shouldn't be easy.

 

[galileo31dos01]

Hello, finnished this hefty one in a week and half. This was a joy all throughout and a pleasure to play more new stuff from you two, and I'd say both styles and dynamics blended together so naturally well here, all while each being distinguishable from each other. I appreciated the continuous change of scenery/theme even within same episodes (or segments, yk, 1-11, 12-20 etc), with different skyboxes, kept things fresh. The difficulty for me was, pretty accessible, the biggest spike being on map 07 and from there on it stayed around that level with the occasional rough moment. I think if I were to draw comparisons it'd be around the likes of TNT/Plutonia demand of skill, just with higher body counts and the inclusion of few new enemies. Speaking of... okay, that in spoilers... but I did wanted to ask, what use of MBF21 does this set explore? Because, I may be wrong but I got the impression that if I switched to complevel 9, it would have been no different, and I think the tweaks to the bestiary could have benefited from the specifics of that format, or well, decohacked I guess, so I'm curious about this choice.

 

Below is a list of miscellaneous observations. Played on dsda-doom cl21, UV/PS, software mode... and, this is from RC1, though I'm aware the glitches in map 32 and some other points were addressed already.

 

Spoiler

04

- You can fit through this window and snag the BK without the need of the YK, since the door only has the color-coded action on the other side. Not sure if this is intentional though but... I'd let it in if you asked me.

 

07

- More of a praise, thank you for adding the two steps with candles on in case you get the arachnotron death bug by accident. Whether this was intentional design or not, thanks!

 

08

- Super minor misalignment here. It's in the corridor leading straight from the start point.

 

10

- Not a bug, I loved this.

 

13

- There is a slime trail you can see from this exact angle, which means it's largely irrelevant, but I've been taking shots of slime trails lately so why not lol

 

31

- There is the possibility to become trapped in this spot, should you let the one archvile blast you over there, which you kinda have to go for it to happen anyways...

 

32

- So this can happen. It's no a big problem as long as it's still within chaingun range.

- Teleport that's sector 557 should relocate you back to where you found the secret entry (so, near sector 596) instead of the start imo, mainly because it may cause disorientation as it's nowhere near where the secret is, and also if you missed grabbing the soulsphere because you fell off the stars by accident, it's a long way back to the secret. 

- Can get stuck here (this might have been addressed already mmm...)

- I took shots of all visual glitches that I could see. I figure why not share them in case one or two weren't fixed already: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

 

16

- Noticed that monsters could not cross under this entrance, for some reason, and I suppose it was to keep them locked in that room, but I'm honestly not sure why was the block line necessary.

- The YSK door to the exit should remain open imo, let the cyberdemon find its way out before the door closes back. 

- Perhaps a crusher for the caged cyberdemon? 

 

18

- Perhaps a telefrag for the cyberdemon on sector 921?... None of these cybs take too long to kill but it's kinda discouraging to do manually, not that anyone is obliged to so that's fine at least. I appreciated you introduced proper telefrags in the latter maps.

 

20

- For whatever reason this texture is rendered wrong in-game, which is, odd? I believe I've seen other like "for decoration purposes" textures that looked like unaligned properly despite theoretically being just one linedef, and in boom afaik textures could be of any size(?) so I'm not sure what's causing this...

 

21

- Line 1050 uses a texture not matching with the rest.

- Not a bug report, I just gonna use this opportunity to, respectfully, call you evil for this secret hint lmao, and then using it in map 28 again. I'm joking though, it's one of your infamous hints by now, since the last time I saw this was in your PRCP map 19. From now I'll have to remember, check every side of a teleport in waverider maps! :p

- Ah, I think you should be able to use lift sector 454 from above level too, imo.

 

24

- This may be intentional, but in case not, you can easily jump (aka. straferun) to the where the RSK is from that ledge, and snag it earlier. Another case I'd leave in, even though it's of no real benefit for speedruns afaik. 

 

 

- I noticed a certain tendency for locked-in type of setups in which there's a single barrier (or set of barriers), linked to a switch nearby, and it takes several seconds for these barriers to fully open and give access to whatever's next. The cons here is when you find this switch trigger after you've dealt with the monsters in the setup, because the setup keeps you focused on the monsters and the switch is like, at the end in a corner or a small nook - an example is in map 20, the section at the southwest, once dealt with the ghosts and lost souls, there're two UV cyberdemons that guard the particular switch, which push you back to the hallways, so when you clear them out of the way, you use the switch and have to wait a few several seconds for a yet another switch. This is the kind of setup that, if you know how it works, or somehow figure out on the fly by playing aggressively, then you can skip the wait, but on a first time this same wait is bit awkward. Like this there were a few other cases throughout the wad, unfortunately can't remember exactly which other maps used this similar idea... I believe the final setup in map 28 wasn't bad because the switches are in plain sight, so despite focusing on the heat of the fight, you can still notice the triggers early on and maintain the flow...

 

My little advice: I think this idea works better when the "wait" is happening, or is activated alongside the fighting part, in the heat of it, so to say, rather than afterwards, and specially if the mechanics involve sequences of switches. 

 

 

About the monsters:

 

- Ghosts: generally found them alright, the higher speed, no flinch state do make them slightly more dangerous than your ordinary hell knight and also more likely to push you back to not get cornered, or too close within your rocket splash damage. Their 500 HP is okay, bit higher than the "sweet spot" for what they represent, thus making them somewhat ammo sponges (I admit, until reaching the latter maps, that I could not discern how much health they had because usually they wouldn't get hit by all SSG pellets even at point blank range, but eh, blockmap bug is just like that).

- Lost souls: the only cons for me is that chainsaw is discouraged, since they retaliate instantly, and their original 100 hp is still dumb, but otherwise I liked them - whereas the original lost soul is merely an annoyance, this new one is more capable of dealing much more damage in little time.

- Dark cardinal: Very random introduction, if I may say so - if I didn't immediately back up when the lift went down and saw the green trail, I would have died without knowing why. I didn't learn well how to properly engage with fighting them, rev rockets made a big difference and I thought that was, alright, yet you can't BFG it like with normal cyberdemons. They have the same problem that afrits in Scythe 2 have (and cacos/PEs as well) that a few shots and they start drifting away to another galaxy. If any two changes I'd suggest, one is higher mass (though not too heavy!) and 1500/2000 HP instead of 4000, which is far too much for a non-boss flier imo.

- SMM without splash immunity: interesting that they were replaced to give the dark cardinal splash immunity. In MBF21 there's no need to replace either former boss monster at all, in fact you can leave the SMM in its place, remove the splash immunity and include the dark cardinal in a new slot. I'd even add that it could keep the boss properties (particularly loud wake up/death sound), splash vulnerability seemed only relevant in the context of map 14 and it's otherwise weird to find them lurking around even when you never heard them before. BTW, good catch on reducing the size of the hitbox, that's something that most people should do and should have always done.

- Overlord?: good final boss, and very well designed area for it. One big suggestion, give it boss properties so you can fully hear it waking up or dying from afar. My dumb luck had it dying off screen by a lost soul and I missed it completely, I even wandered around for a minute looking for it until realizing that it already died lol.

 

Hope to see more from you two, individually or together. Thanks for making this!

[TMMMS]

im a bit confused by map04

 

i seemed to have picked all health and armor bonuses but the level stats told me i was still missing some so i started scouring the map until i ended up walking over some tile of darker water and the well in the middle of the map and that is how i got the missing bonuses

 

is that a bug or a nod to duke nukem 3d where drinking water heals you?

[waverider]

@Degree23: About the new Lost Soul, I'm not sure about lowering it's health more, the regular LS has 100 health. I'll definitely consider it though. How does it sound if I were to lower it's movement speed to that of the original Soul and also if I made it less prone to charge when attacked? Or would you rather have a lowered health?

 

@galileo31dos01: Really glad you liked the wad so much! Also thanks for the throughout feedback! Maybe it was a mistake to say it's MBF21 compatible, when it will work with earlier MBF modes as well, I just thought it was best to mention is as MBF21 recommended as we do recommend new ports to avoid hassle. What would you recommend I type instead of MBF21 recommended?

 

About your feedback then!

 

Spoiler

Map04: The shortcut is intended, glad you liked it! I will leave it in!

 

Map07: Not trying to boast, but candles were also intended. 

 

Map08: Thanks, I'll add this alignment issue to the fixlist!

 

Map10: Glad you liked this easter egg! Foo Fighters is a damn good band, btw.

 

Map13: It doesn't seem like the GZDoom node builder fixes this, I'm gonna try to fix it by moving around some vertices, thanks!

 

Map31: Ouch, I'll be sure to fix this bug, thanks again!

 

Map18: I'll definitely consider adding a telefrag to this!

 

Map20: Hmm, not sure about this either, it seems to look fine in some ports and not so fine in others, I may have to leave it as it is.

 

Map21: Good catch about the texture, I'll fix this too. I'll consider making this teleport secret easier to spot, or at least remove the lava around it. And I'll make sure you can take the lift back up!

 

About the general feedback, I'll see what I can do to relieve the wait a bit for those barriers!

 

I had a few questions about the monsters, is it ok to brainstorm a bit about them? If yes, here's my thoughts:

 

Spoiler

* Nightmare (ghost) *: Would you recommend a slight health decrease then? Maybe I should also put back their pain state so that they can be interrupted?

 

* Forgotten One (new Soul): I'm a bit reluctant to reduce the health of it, rather have the same as the regular Soul, though I may be convinced. How would you feel about a lower flight speed and/or making it less likely to retaliate by changing the Pain state chance? Right now it's made to charge at every time it goes into pain state, which is 50% at the moment.

 

* Dark Cardinal: Would you rather have a more "visible" first introduction then? I wanted the Cardinal to be the most powerful regular enemy of the wad, I will start off trying to raise the mass more so it wouldn't drift away too much. Btw, where was the spot where you had most trouble with it drifting away too much? Maybe I can fix this annoyance in the level where you had the issues? I'd love to keep the high health so it can beat both the cyber and Mastermind in a duel, if possible. :)

 

* Overlord: Glad you liked it so much! Since I'm not excellent at the dehacked stuff myself, (I can only do some changes myself) I will need to ask someone else for help with the changes you suggested - which are very good suggestions I may add. It definitely needs a loud introduction sound as well as a loud death sound.

 

Sorry if I went too technical on you by the way.

 

[waverider]

@TMMMS: This is intended, not sure where I got the idea from, maybe it was Duke 3D, I honestly don't know. :)

[TMMMS]

ah ok thats the second time i play a map that hides its health/armor bonuses until the player does a certain action, the first time being odds and ends #1

 

im surprised i never encountered this trick until very recently!

[Degree23]

1 hour ago, waverider said:

@Degree23: About the new Lost Soul, I'm not sure about lowering it's health more, the regular LS has 100 health. I'll definitely consider it though. How does it sound if I were to lower it's movement speed to that of the original Soul and also if I made it less prone to charge when attacked? Or would you rather have a lowered health?

 

To be honest, it's just a personal preference. I really wouldn't change anything based on it unless a lot of others felt the same. There's nothing inherently unfair about them, just them getting up in your face is very annoying! You've designed the entire WAD with how it currently plays in mind so I really wouldn't change it now.

 

I just played through Maps 17 and 18 and boy can I really feel the Sunlust difficulty starting to kick in now. I love using the SSG where I can, but Map 18 was the first map where I've more brazenly just gone around with the Rocket Launcher, and didn't shy away from holding down the trigger finger on the BFG. Can't wait to see what else is in store!

[galileo31dos01]

@waverider Mmm, I think I would consider implementing dsdhacked, which afaik is a specific thing you can set in the wad's current deh and take advantage of some removed limitations and other things, though particularly thinking here about benefits to the custom enemies and edits to the ordinary ones. I would advise this over suggesting the wad to be experienced in complevel 11 (what we all typically understand when people say "MBF compatible"), because some stuff like 3-key doors not working properly if you have a yellow skull, monster infight is weird, yeah so a modern deh would be the best choice. If this doesn't sound attractive, there're no problems anyways with running this in cl21. 

 

Spoiler

- The nightmare's lack of pain chance is fine as is imo, I wouldn't touch that. The HP values, I mean, personally I didn't mind, it's comparable to a hell knight because of what they bring to the table, though someone else might find it "too tanky" because while dangerous, at the same time as a ghost it takes a few several shots to kill. Perhaps a sweet spot might be 300 hp?... although the more you lower the health, you'd need to increase its threat to balance things, such as walking even a little faster. I guess one thing you could consider, I'm sure in dsdhacked it must be easily doable, is no blood puffs when shot with hitscan. Maybe even the melee attack could trigger a bit earlier, during the scratch sound... in short words, can make it own the name "nightmare" more deservedly ;P

 

- Other than health, I would leave FOs intact. SSG combat with lost souls is naturally finicky sometimes. Not suggesting a massive decrease, but say 70/80, typically the lost soul that erroneously survives a SSG shot is left with 10 hp left or so.

 

- It could perhaps be introduced earlier in a more, formal way, like for example around the start of the map, and it fades away to the first shot or eye contact with the player, then reappearing on its current place. It could even "haunt" the player somewhat by making quick brief appearances throughout the map, although I think that'd fit better in the context of map 21. That's just brainstorming one idea that's been used before. If you liked the current introduction, maybe that little room could suffer some hellish transformation, e.g. the switch for the lift becomes locked and there's a new switch that lower the lift and floor down to the blood, revealing a little alcove with pulsing lights, dark cardinal appearing as a surprise. Again, brainstorming... As for the the mass thing, only in open areas when fighting with BFG, but I'd always try myself to push them not to the oblivion but to the center, so I was lucky. The good thing is that, in MBF21 you can use line specials such as "block players but fliers can pass" or viceversa, and maybe the final area in map 29 could benefit from them. There wasn't a particular place where this was a casual struggle, as much as it being a combo with the super high HP which I wasn't a fan of myself -- iirc there's only one or two setups in the whole wad that included both dark cardinals and cyberdemons together, and the other day I was watching a twitch stream, the player managed to coax them to infight and the cybs destroyed the cardinals, after a while.. soooo, yeah :p

 

- Np! I've never touched dsdhacked before otherwise I'd gladly help, but yeah go for that one. 

 

[Not Jabba]

The Nightmares are kind of an interesting case re: health vs. threat level. Early on, it felt like I was encountering them more often in open areas, and they tended to feel tanky because they're not threatening there. Later in the megawad, they tend to be fought in narrower spaces like hallways, and in that context, they're a lot more interesting than a Hell Knight -- same health, but they pursue you faster, are harder to dodge, harder to hit, are a bit harder to keep track of, and the basic dodge/fall back motion that you do with HKs is tougher to carry out against them, so you're under more pressure while retreating. They're great in those types of spaces, especially in small groups, and they're more threatening because you can't take them down super quickly. It's more a matter of how they're used than how much health they have.

Edited August 22 by Not Jabba

[Degree23]

As above, I didn't think the Nightmares would be that much of a problem. The most annoying thing was how easily they dodged Rockets with their sideways movement! However as I've gotten through more of the WAD, they have definitely have been placed in situations where they are fare more dangerous.

 

Just (finally) finished Map28 which kicked my ass a few times. There were some bars to some extra "exit" switch I wasn't seemingly able to lower, but having spent over 45 minutes on my successful completion, plus probably another 40 minutes in death attempts, I'm happy to move on!

[Zeroandneko]

I just finished this set and I loved it. On Ultra Violence it was a decent challenge with nothing too overwhelming or frustrating except maybe the second to last level (Map 29) that garnered a bit of rage involving archviles but that is part of the Doom experience I say. Great job on this set you should be really proud of what you made here.

[Bertt91]

After 1 month of rest, I was able to complete the 19 maps I was missing.

 

In summary, I just want to say that I loved the aesthetics of the maps, the design of the new demons, the difficulty progression and the long time to complete those maps.

Additionally, the difficulty (UV) becomes high in certain maps and fights.

Congratulations on this great wad, it has been one of my favorites this year.
 

[Degree23]

Finally finished this. Map 29 suffers from the same problem that all large maps suffer from - floating enemies can be knocked absolutely miles away, and they also sometimes floated over teleporters which caused two of my deaths here as a monster teleported right next to me and killed me with no warning. In Map 30, several monsters got telefragged immediately on spawn, was that supposed to happen?

 

Spoiler

My thoughts on the new monsters:

 

Lost Soul - Honestly I'd be glad to never see this again. The fact it melee attacks you repeatedly is really frustrating, especially since if it charges you and connects, it will start doing this. Without this melee attack I'd probably have enjoyed fighting this a lot more, but as it stands I never want to see it again.

 

Nightmare - As previously mentioned, this became a massive threat later on compared to earlier levels. This was used really well throughout.

 

Floating Cyberdemon thing - It took me a while to work out how to fight it with its attack pattern alternating between Cyberdemon and Revenant rockets and it was interesting to fight. The main frustration was that because it floats, in open areas it ended up sometimes being knocked far away, which meant it was then sniping at you from long distance with no way to kill it until it was back in range. This is what floated over a teleporter next to me and killed me twice in Map 29. It's just the way it is with floating monsters, but with one as powerful as this it is a pain.

 

Final boss - How much HP does this damn thing have? I don't know if it's because it's what happens when it gets lower on health or if I was just lucky, but I managed to stunlock it for a bit and get 7 fairly close range BFG shots (+tracers) off and that was alongside countless other BFG blasts.

 

Overall an incredible MegaWAD.

[apichatpong]

18 minutes ago, Degree23 said:

Overall an incredible MegaWAD.

 

Hell yeah !

Even if I'm taking a pause from my UV tries since one or two weeks, I know it will be a pleasure to come back there in near future.

I want to believe, from his name (sorry), that waverider is from Sweden so that one can start a wobbly theory about the great success of USA/Sweden collabs in doom after you know what...

Most striking megawad of this year, as far as I'm concerned.

[waverider]

Thanks for your additional comments, everyone! :)

 

Me and @valkiriforce: are working on RC2 now, which should address most of the reported issues so far. We hope you will enjoy those changes.

[Kor]

59 minutes ago, waverider said:

Thanks for your additional comments, everyone! :)

 

Me and @valkiriforce: are working on RC2 now, which should address most of the reported issues so far. We hope you will enjoy those changes.

It certainly has replay value so I'll play through rc2 when it's ready. And pay no attention to the nitpicky comment I made about aesthetics.