LexiMax Posted August 16 (edited) What makes this conversation incredibly frustrating is that it seems like people keep talking past each other in the interests of fueling the fire. It seems like posts that try and de-escalate, or reasonable responses to conspiratorial thinking, are merely ignored or sidestepped when they're inconvenient. For example, there was a poster who thought that the ban was influenced by corporate interests. When it was pointed out that the one person who could of qualified as a corporate stooge was actually not an active moderator, and hadn't been in some time, there was no apology, there was no "Oh I see, I was mistaken" they just switched tacks to something else, because it was less important than maintaining the narrative of oppression. We are basically in the realm of fully blown McCarthyism at this point. 19 Share this post Link to post
Andrea Rovenski Posted August 16 I think that labeling only one side as "conspiratorial" is a bit of a stretch, because ultimately none of us know what is going on in the lawyer's rooms and c-suite offices of the big boys up top. We are ALL conspiring here, both (or more) sides. We are basing our perspectives on what we know of the game industry, and the law, and we have differences of opinions on what those things mean for this community specifically. The idea that Bethesda is benevolent corporation is just as much of a conspiracy as the idea that they will take us all down imminently. I think that casually using language like "conspiracy", while pretty funny, is not helping anything and I've seen this word thrown around a lot in this thread and others regarding the subject, and only used to denigrate one side of the conversation. The truth is, no one here knows anything about how this will turn out in 5-10 years. Nobody who worked on the port, id24, or LOR can claim with absolute certainty what the future holds. I'd also like to echo some of what 4shockblast and others said about bringing up old drama for this thread. None of that is helpful, and while unlikely, I would implore everyone to consider reaching out to people who you have a grudge with and trying to fix the problems in good faith. 20+ years of this forum's history has resulted in so many beefs and grudges and it seemingly only gets worse over time, and it worries me. Anyway, thanks for reading. :) 19 Share this post Link to post
Dynamo Posted August 16 34 minutes ago, 4shockblast said: By the way, bringing up old drama and then claiming it made no difference in the ban decision is not a good look; if it made no difference, leave it out. That's my belief. Just for clarity's sake, I've discussed this reply with 4shockblast elsewhere but I'm just going to say what I said to him personally also publicly here, which is to repeat that once again the old drama had no bearing on the ban, which is why it was not at all brought up in the ban reply. I only ever brought it up to add context to Peter's question a few pages back, and that's it. 4shockblast has agreed that this was not clear to him initially and has now understood it, so I hope that settles the matter for good. 7 Share this post Link to post
Quasar Posted August 16 I have offered hard facts - the impetus for and design of ID24 as a spec does not extend past Nightdive. The onus to explain how adopting the standard will somehow cause a backdraft onto ports in the future is on the people making that assertion. 13 Share this post Link to post
Tarnsman Posted August 16 (edited) I am completely confused and baffled by the people who seem to be worried about how a port feature set is going to result in Bethesda exerting some form of control over the Doom community given the fact that Bethesda's much larger franchises are allowed pretty much free reign for those communities to make whatever they want. I don't think in a world where Bethesda doesn't care that things that turn their game into actual pornography have a million plus downloads is going to suddenly heavily police Doom content. 22 Share this post Link to post
LexiMax Posted August 16 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Andrea Rovenski said: The idea that Bethesda is benevolent corporation is just as much of a conspiracy as the idea that they will take us all down imminently See this is what I'm talking about. I don't think anyone ever said that Bethesda was a benevolent corporation. Did they? Because if so, I'll be the first to say that they're wrong wrong wrong. At most, what was said is that Bethesda and id Software had very little idea of what was happening, and that the integration of prior standards and the addition of ID24 was mostly a Nightdive initiative, because wouldn't it be nice if the official port could run WAD files more modern than limit-removing. 11 minutes ago, Andrea Rovenski said: The truth is, no one here knows anything about how this will turn out in 5-10 years. As for how the mod downloader is concerned, we might not be able to tell the future, but we have prior art in the Fallout/Skyrim communities, where the mod downloader is only used on consoles because there's no other choice, and on PC it's only used for people new to the game before graduating to third party mod managers. ...but this point was brought up already. I don't think I've seen a response to it. Which is why this conversation is so damn frustrating. 10 Share this post Link to post
Andrea Rovenski Posted August 16 Just now, LexiMax said: I don't think anyone ever said that Bethesda was a benevolent corporation. Did they? Because if so, I'll be the first to say that they're wrong wrong wrong. I'm using the hyperbolic language from both sides of the debate to make it clear how silly some of the claims are. I don't think anyone is sincerely arguing that id/beth/zeni/micro are going to delcare war on doomworld either. My point is that ultimately we're all just speculating here and we should just be able to agree to disagree without it getting petty. :) I don't think anyone involved here is acting purposefully malicious. At most, being rude for the sake of humor (which is probably not a good idea). I genuinely believe that the best for everyone is that we try to just understand that we have different perspectives and that the discussion is definitely going in circles. No one here is morally bankrupt or evil or anything like that. At least, in my opinion. 4 Share this post Link to post
LexiMax Posted August 16 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Andrea Rovenski said: No one here is morally bankrupt or evil or anything like that. At least, in my opinion. I don't think so either. It's just kind of frustrating, because I'd love to have deeper conversations on - say - the morality of reverse-engineering GPL code for the purposes of re-licensing, or how the same controversy shook out in the Fallout/Skyrim modding community. Yet somehow, those posts don't get responses, and we keep getting stuck on the same, surface-level commentary about capitalism, intellectual property, and vague fearmongering of what the IP holders could do in the future. Edited August 16 by LexiMax 7 Share this post Link to post
apichatpong Posted August 16 (edited) I guess, for the next Bethesda official release, someone should develop a new weapon named dsda10000 shooting super strong "magic bullets" that travel like this, as a tribute to this thread where some legit guardrails are quickly considered as conspiracies. (sorry, once again, I'm out of my league and now will come back to the Wad release and development subforum) 3 Share this post Link to post
LenCancermine Posted August 16 On 8/13/2024 at 10:21 AM, Doomkid said: I don't want to sound like I'm trying to fan flames, because I am VERY sympathetic to the sentiments around the mod uploader and file situation sucking ass -- but man, I was just seeing SO many great old classics uploaded in a shit, totally butchered form. I honestly don't know what else to do, this comes solely from a desire for people with a casual interest in Doom browsing their mod list to get better versions of the previously broken uploads.. I'm gonna just relent and say though, it feels like fighting a losing uphill battle. But please understand that in the case of someone like me, for whom this was all equally surprising, I'm just trying to ensure players get the least shit experience, it's not an endorsement so much as a "fuck, I can't stand seeing a broken piece of shit version of Doom City be the one a whole bunch of new players are introduced to...." I'm also really not a fan of the unused content situation, but I am accepting it because there's no other choice. If the response to posting a public thread with those assets is to be told to stop for legal reasons, that's just what I have to do. It's definitely happening with a big old frown on my face. I don't blame any individuals who are a part of the community though. I don't think the people who had to tell me to pull the thread down exactly "wanted" to. This whole thing is just so rocky right now and I don't want to make the mistake of burning any bridges with good/cool people because of shit beyond their power. I previously spoiler'd this last half because it's so offtopic, but the first half isn't, and damn, I just needed to make it known where I'm at with all this stuff. Heya, I'm the person who uploaded the broken doomcity wad. I saw the uploader feature and just grabbed a random wad i liked lying around, then saw it completely broke in the new port, was disappointed, went to delete it and realized there was no way to do so from in-game. A friend pointed me here and told me I can edit the upload from the bethesda site but not ingame for some reason, so i edited mine to put say broken in the title and point people to your fixed one instead. If only the uploader didnt suck ass and instead let me change it from the start lol. 4 Share this post Link to post
Gez Posted August 16 (edited) 1 hour ago, Andrea Rovenski said: I'm using the hyperbolic language from both sides of the debate to make it clear how silly some of the claims are. I'm not sure how "their interest is to keep the community engaged in making mods because those become free publicity and free labor because what we call mods, they call user-generated content" can be hyperbolized into "they're a benevolent corporation". The point isn't to say they're benevolent, it's just that it's in their interest to let modders make mods. You know Bethesda has a reputation of a company whose games are only playable once they're modded, right? Things are said like "bugthesda let modders fix their games", "I'll wait for the unofficial patch", or "not even mods can save Starfield". We know they have that reputation, they know they have that reputation, and they know we know they have that reputation. So all the fuss about "Bethesda is going to kill mods" is ridiculous, and I'm not saying that because I think they're benevolent; I'm saying that because I think their entire business model is based on their games being modded. What might happen eventually is them extending their "verified creation" thing to Doom. That's a possibility I find way more likely than them killing off source ports or imposing standards or what-have-you. However, I'm not sure it'd really work in a game engine where you can already publish your own game on Steam without having to go through them. 7 Share this post Link to post
Sneezy McGlassFace Posted August 16 1 hour ago, LexiMax said: I don't think so either. It's just kind of frustrating, because I'd love to have deeper conversations on - say - the morality of reverse-engineering GPL code for the purposes of re-licensing, or how the same controversy shook out in the Fallout/Skyrim modding community. That's something I'd also like to talk about (thanks for the reply regarding re-licensing btw) I'm just exhausted. Now this one's for everyone: Tomorrow it'll be a week of constant screaming over each other day and night, and not getting anywhere. I think that's how everybody who tried to keep up or participate feels too. It's so draining. We're 17 pages in and we didn't budge. At least now it shifted from "he said, she said" but after reading Helm's write-up, I've been staring blankly at a wall for the past godknows how long. I'm so done, you guys. I can't. One of the last things Raven said (sorry I won't look up the exact quote, it's buried under pages of nonsense and i'm not re-reading that) was about how we all love doom, and the community, that's why we're all here. And we all have different ideas about how to keep it safe and healthy. Some believe it's better to have the official release to bring more people in, more mods, more development, and some believe that bethesda is a legitimate threat to the long term well-being of the community. A beautiful, bittersweet sentiment. We'd tear ourselves and each other apart for sake of our collective passion. Let that sink in. I'm feel like I see more eye to eye with the "concerned" crowd because I look at the beautiful thing we have here (not in this thread, you know what I mean) and then I look at the gaming industry as a whole. It's like the scene from Simpsons "the world without lawyers", people make maps and mods and music and textures and utilities and nobody even thinks they should get something in return, isn't that just amazing? I made something cool, here, have it, enjoy. Isn't it precious? There aren't many communities like this. I would imagine that plays a big part in why people are absolutely losing their/our shit over the admittedly smallest intrusion from bethesda. Of course, mods and modding isn't going anywhere. But somebody tell me, what established community has genuinely benefited from corporate involvement? Fans of nintendo games are endlessly harassed, romhacks taken down, youtube play-throughs and fanmade music taken down on spurious copyright claims, events being cancelled... Fallout and skyrim modders are thriving despite bethesda, I would argue, not thanks to bethesda. Hell, I would say that bethesda was low-key expecting modders to pick up their slack and finish starfield for them but that's, whatever, doesn't matter. Why should we want closer ties to bethesda? I mean this. I'm not being conspiratorial here, am I? Looking at the news of whatever happens in the industry. Endless lay-offs, buy-outs, cancelled projects, unpaid mandatory overtime, people being held as contractors with false promises of getting a contract only to be fired when they're not needed, which doesn't count as a lay-off, interesting, while executives are stuffing their pockets with exceedingly ludicrous amounts of money. I look at all that, and I see that taking interest in us right here. The mentality is like the exact opposite, isn't it? Freely sharing creative labour without even a hint of expecting something in return, and squeezing every last drop from creative people and throwing them away into the overcrowded job market once the quarterly report approaches so investors see a number go up. Am I conspiratorial? Am I mad for seeing the patterns? Am I wrong for not wanting anything to do with that? I don't have any particular concerns with id24, it's a fine spec. It's a fine source port too. Nice new level set. But with all that in mind, am I crazy for wanting the divide between the business side and the creative side as wide as possible? I don't know.. What I do know is that tomorrow is Saturday. I'm gonna sit down under a tree and watch the clouds go by. Really looking forward to that. 18 Share this post Link to post
ChaoticReverie Posted August 16 (edited) I read through most of this and scanned through the rest. I am a little saddened by the reaction of the community overall. I had really hoped that by now after more than 30 years we collectively as a community would be more unified than we are. All I see is the same old divisions that have existed since the original source release. Many might not agree with me on this, but I see ID24 as an attempt to at least try to unify Doom for the common masses. Which is great! We need that. But, why did it need to take corporate-backed effort for that to at least be attempted? How crazy is it that the ancient zombified corpse of DeHacked had to once again be picked apart and beaten into dust simply because that was the only way to come close to satisfying most parts of the community? We are going to need another "The community is falling" wad after this drama. Imagine the irony of that. 5 Share this post Link to post
Cacodemon345 Posted August 16 15 minutes ago, Sneezy McGlassFace said: Fallout and skyrim modders are thriving despite bethesda, I would argue, not thanks to bethesda. I'd argue it's because of the latter, because those modders can at least thrive knowing that Bethesda (or at least Microsoft to an extent) is openly pro-modding. Modders wouldn't be able to ever claim something like that with any AAA games from a company with an at-best neutral and at-worst very negative stance on modding. 2 Share this post Link to post
Psychagogic Posted August 16 3 hours ago, Quasar said: Given demo compatibility with Doom + Doom II is not a goal, I don't believe there's any expectation that Boom/MBF complevels should get retroactively broken. The unfortunate reality will just be that mods would need to work around the differences if they want to run properly on the official port. Even in the best case scenario I doubt ALL the divergences will get fixed. If ID24 is a superset of MBF21 and there are divergences, doesn't that mean that community-developed ID24 mods will stand a decent chance of also being broken diverging in the d+d2 engine, and will have to pick whether to work in d+d2 OR community source ports? How hard will it be to work around these divergences for an ID24 mod to work the same in both d+d2 and Eternity, for example? 1 Share this post Link to post
Obsidian Plague Posted August 16 (edited) I haven't seen another thread go in circles more, I feel after questions get answered it's like people magically forget and they act like nothing happened prior I don't even know what the issue is, we have the modding specs, pre-ready code to implement into source ports, we have the exclusive assets required for said specs to work, and it's been made extremely clear Nightdive/id/Zenimax/Bethesda/Microsoft doesn't give two shits about policing the doom community, this is ridiculous, it's turning into speculative conspiratorial bullshit, with all the drama going on you'd be thinking Microsoft did a Nintendo-style sweep on ModDB or something but no it's people being really weird about...what the fuck was it again, "Paywalled" content? as if you didn't already need Doom 2 to play any of the fine mods here? Not to mention this port isn't even a replacement for every source port ever made as many people are afraid of i'm reading, I don't understand how the thread isn't closed already because it's clear i don't see any development coming of this anymore, not to mention it's becoming less and less about ID24 with each passing day PLEASE correct me if i'm not seeing anything important here 8 Share this post Link to post
Gez Posted August 16 36 minutes ago, Sneezy McGlassFace said: But with all that in mind, am I crazy for wanting the divide between the business side and the creative side as wide as possible? Well then, don't mod for Doom. You can mod for Rekkr, or for Selaco, or for Beyond Sunset, or for Hedon, or for Supplice, or for any other of these games, and know that your mod will not bring any publicity to Bethesda-owned franchises, and will not work on the Bethesda-published port, and will not help Bethesda get more sales of Doom + Doom II. Or you can work on your own custom game! Just don't make it compatible with the D+D2 executable and you're safe. But don't make Doom mods. They own Doom. Even if you make an Eternity or GZDoom mod just to make sure it can't be played on their port, it'll still be a Doom mod that requires owning Doom and that'll be free publicity for the Doom game. If you want to thwart Bethesda, if you want to widen the gap, don't make Doom mods, don't stream Doom mods, don't write about Doom mods. They'll go away once the game stops being popular. 7 Share this post Link to post
LexiMax Posted August 16 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Psychagogic said: How hard will it be to work around these divergences for an ID24 mod to work the same in both d+d2 and Eternity, for example? I don't know the answer of how to measure the difficulty of workarounds as it pertains to Doom + Doom II specifically, but it's worth mentioning that this is well trodden ground when it comes to ports like GZDoom. There has never been a point where you could develop a map against a single port and assumed it worked in all others. Heck, one of the things I had to fix at the last minute in IDDM1 were some non-working switches due to ZDoom-based assumptions that "Use" could pass through other special lines. Doesn't work in BOOM, but was never caught because most of the existing online source ports are ZDoom-based. You might think that it's a rookie mistake, but lots of maps have similar issues, including The Mucus Flow. 5 Share this post Link to post
Cacodemon345 Posted August 16 Quote Sector tinting Sectors can now have colormaps applied directly to them without needing to use Boom’s property transfer line specials. It is also entirely possible to do this dynamically thanks to interactive line special types. When defining the colormap, you set the upper texture to the wanted lump name of the colormap when using the static special or when activating the line from the front side; and the lower texture when activating from the back side. If a lump is not found with the provided name, or if the upper/lower textures are not set, the sector’s colormap is cleared and it uses the current default colormap (as set with the property transfer zone you are in). When a sector’s colormap is set this way, it entirely overrides the default colormap (including property transfers, excluding powerups). This seems like it would invite trouble for source ports using hardware-accelerated hardware renderers supporting HD texture packs since those are poorly equipped to handle colormaps. I'd suggest adding in an additional mandatory lump describing colormaps and their mapping to RGBA color values to deal with this problem. 6 Share this post Link to post
dpJudas Posted August 16 3 hours ago, LexiMax said: I don't think so either. It's just kind of frustrating, because I'd love to have deeper conversations on - say - the morality of reverse-engineering GPL code for the purposes of re-licensing, or how the same controversy shook out in the Fallout/Skyrim modding community. You don't get responses on that because participating in such a debate will only get you enemies. There's no room for nuance on the Internet, unfortunately. 1 Share this post Link to post
Cacodemon345 Posted August 16 For the tranmaps, a mandatory lump describing those with their alpha levels should also be added since those too are poorly handled by hardware renderers. (I still sincerely hope GooberMan reads this as well after all that happened here). 3 Share this post Link to post
St. Mildly Annoyed Posted August 16 (edited) 3 hours ago, LexiMax said: I don't think so either. It's just kind of frustrating, because I'd love to have deeper conversations on - say - the morality of reverse-engineering GPL code for the purposes of re-licensing, or how the same controversy shook out in the Fallout/Skyrim modding community. Yet somehow, those posts don't get responses, and we keep getting stuck on the same, surface-level commentary about capitalism, intellectual property, and vague fearmongering of what the IP holders could do in the future. as someone who doesn't understand much about this situation, are people claiming neo-ID and bethesda releasing a new mapping format, and in console modding will lead to bethesda trying to replace/kill zdoom and other community ports? I've been paying more attention to the vault goodies, and not much on the controversies regarding the new port. what I do now is that we got an early release, and Id is working on releasing a fully baked version soon. 1 Share this post Link to post
Obsidian Plague Posted August 16 (edited) 6 minutes ago, St. Mildly Annoyed said: as someone who doesn't understand much about this situation, are people claiming neo-ID and bethesda releasing a new mapping format, and in console modding will lead to bethesda trying to replace/kill zdoom and other community ports? Something like that, yeah, just wait until the source ports catch up, i give it either end of this year or start of next year, when that happens this weird nothing outrage will be all for naught I swear if literally anyone else presented this spec people would be significantly less upset for weird unrelated reasons that people are making up in their head 1 Share this post Link to post
St. Mildly Annoyed Posted August 16 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Obsidian Plague said: Something like that, yeah, just wait until the source ports catch up, i give it either end of this year or start of next year, when that happens this weird nothing outrage will be all for naught I swear if literally anyone else presented this spec people would be significantly less upset for weird unrelated reasons that people are making up in their head plus, graph hall - or whoever else is currently contributing to gzdoom- is probably already cooking something up. Edited August 16 by St. Mildly Annoyed 1 Share this post Link to post
nobleflame Posted August 16 Can you DOOM nerds get back to making wads now please? *that was a joke BTW, I’m grateful for everything that happens in these boards. ❤️ 2 Share this post Link to post
St. Mildly Annoyed Posted August 16 38 minutes ago, nobleflame said: Can you DOOM nerds get back to making wads now please? already on it. I've actually made 3 levels recently, but haven't had the confidence to post them to doomworld. 1 Share this post Link to post
Xenaero Posted August 16 I already got an idea for an ID24 project that might be quite possible when the spec hits 1.0 Doom is cool. If you like Doom, gimme a hell yea 18 Share this post Link to post
Liberation Posted August 16 hell yea Edit: Since I'm here.. I am actually quite interested in the new features of ID24, certainly the weapon dehacked stuff and I do have a small idea I would like to try out. Keen to see what others get up to. 6 Share this post Link to post
esselfortium Posted August 16 2 hours ago, Cacodemon345 said: For the tranmaps, a mandatory lump describing those with their alpha levels should also be added since those too are poorly handled by hardware renderers. (I still sincerely hope GooberMan reads this as well after all that happened here). Tranmaps support any arbitrary blends on a per-palette-color basis, not just simple alpha translucency. You can use them to hue-shift or gradient-map a subset of the palette (or the entire palette), turn something monochrome or invert what's behind it, additively or subtractively blend, apply a transparency mask, etc., the options are limitless really. GooberMan has been talking on Discord about a way to handle this properly in hardware renderers, and I believe he'll be posting about it in the near future. 3 Share this post Link to post
neubejiita Posted August 16 Is there any way to find the DEHACKED ids of the new id24 monsters? Thanks. 0 Share this post Link to post