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GooberMan

ID24 - a new feature set standard

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34 minutes ago, 4shockblast said:

By the way, bringing up old drama and then claiming it made no difference in the ban decision is not a good look; if it made no difference, leave it out. That's my belief.

Just for clarity's sake, I've discussed this reply with 4shockblast elsewhere but I'm just going to say what I said to him personally also publicly here, which is to repeat that once again the old drama had no bearing on the ban, which is why it was not at all brought up in the ban reply. I only ever brought it up to add context to Peter's question a few pages back, and that's it. 4shockblast has agreed that this was not clear to him initially and has now understood it, so I hope that settles the matter for good.

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I have offered hard facts - the impetus for and design of ID24 as a spec does not extend past Nightdive. The onus to explain how adopting the standard will somehow cause a backdraft onto ports in the future is on the people making that assertion.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Andrea Rovenski said:

The idea that Bethesda is benevolent corporation is just as much of a conspiracy as the idea that they will take us all down imminently

 

See this is what I'm talking about.

 

I don't think anyone ever said that Bethesda was a benevolent corporation.  Did they?  Because if so, I'll be the first to say that they're wrong wrong wrong.  At most, what was said is that Bethesda and id Software had very little idea of what was happening, and that the integration of prior standards and the addition of ID24 was mostly a Nightdive initiative, because wouldn't it be nice if the official port could run WAD files more modern than limit-removing.

 

11 minutes ago, Andrea Rovenski said:

The truth is, no one here knows anything about how this will turn out in 5-10 years. 

 

As for how the mod downloader is concerned, we might not be able to tell the future, but we have prior art in the Fallout/Skyrim communities, where the mod downloader is only used on consoles because there's no other choice, and on PC it's only used for people new to the game before graduating to third party mod managers.

 

...but this point was brought up already.  I don't think I've seen a response to it.  Which is why this conversation is so damn frustrating.

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Just now, LexiMax said:

I don't think anyone ever said that Bethesda was a benevolent corporation.  Did they?  Because if so, I'll be the first to say that they're wrong wrong wrong.

I'm using the hyperbolic language from both sides of the debate to make it clear how silly some of the claims are. I don't think anyone is sincerely arguing that id/beth/zeni/micro are going to delcare war on doomworld either. My point is that ultimately we're all just speculating here and we should just be able to agree to disagree without it getting petty. :) I don't think anyone involved here is acting purposefully malicious. At most, being rude for the sake of humor (which is probably not a good idea). I genuinely believe that the best for everyone is that we try to just understand that we have different perspectives and that the discussion is definitely going in circles. No one here is morally bankrupt or evil or anything like that. At least, in my opinion. 

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Andrea Rovenski said:

No one here is morally bankrupt or evil or anything like that. At least, in my opinion.  

 

I don't think so either.  It's just kind of frustrating, because I'd love to have deeper conversations on - say - the morality of reverse-engineering GPL code for the purposes of re-licensing, or how the same controversy shook out in the Fallout/Skyrim modding community.

 

Yet somehow, those posts don't get responses, and we keep getting stuck on the same, surface-level commentary about capitalism, intellectual property, and vague fearmongering of what the IP holders could do in the future.

Edited by LexiMax

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Posted (edited)

I guess, for the next Bethesda official release, someone should develop a new weapon named dsda10000 shooting super strong "magic bullets" that travel like this, as a tribute to this thread where some legit guardrails are quickly considered as conspiracies.

 

(sorry, once again, I'm out of my league and now will come back to the Wad release and development subforum)

1.jpg

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On 8/13/2024 at 10:21 AM, Doomkid said:

I don't want to sound like I'm trying to fan flames, because I am VERY sympathetic to the sentiments around the mod uploader and file situation sucking ass -- but man, I was just seeing SO many great old classics uploaded in a shit, totally butchered form. I honestly don't know what else to do, this comes solely from a desire for people with a casual interest in Doom browsing their mod list to get better versions of the previously broken uploads..

 

I'm gonna just relent and say though, it feels like fighting a losing uphill battle. But please understand that in the case of someone like me, for whom this was all equally surprising, I'm just trying to ensure players get the least shit experience, it's not an endorsement so much as a "fuck, I can't stand seeing a broken piece of shit version of Doom City be the one a whole bunch of new players are introduced to...."

 

I'm also really not a fan of the unused content situation, but I am accepting it because there's no other choice. If the response to posting a public thread with those assets is to be told to stop for legal reasons, that's just what I have to do. It's definitely happening with a big old frown on my face.

 

I don't blame any individuals who are a part of the community though. I don't think the people who had to tell me to pull the thread down exactly "wanted" to. This whole thing is just so rocky right now and I don't want to make the mistake of burning any bridges with good/cool people because of shit beyond their power.

I previously spoiler'd this last half because it's so offtopic, but the first half isn't, and damn, I just needed to make it known where I'm at with all this stuff.

Heya, I'm the person who uploaded the broken doomcity wad. I saw the uploader feature and just grabbed a random wad i liked lying around, then saw it completely broke in the new port, was disappointed, went to delete it and realized there was no way to do so from in-game. A friend pointed me here and told me I can edit the upload from the bethesda site but not ingame for some reason, so i edited mine to put say broken in the title and point people to your fixed one instead. If only the uploader didnt suck ass and instead let me change it from the start lol.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Andrea Rovenski said:

I'm using the hyperbolic language from both sides of the debate to make it clear how silly some of the claims are.

I'm not sure how "their interest is to keep the community engaged in making mods because those become free publicity and free labor because what we call mods, they call user-generated content" can be hyperbolized into "they're a benevolent corporation".

 

The point isn't to say they're benevolent, it's just that it's in their interest to let modders make mods. You know Bethesda has a reputation of a company whose games are only playable once they're modded, right? Things are said like "bugthesda let modders fix their games", "I'll wait for the unofficial patch", or "not even mods can save Starfield". We know they have that reputation, they know they have that reputation, and they know we know they have that reputation.

 

So all the fuss about "Bethesda is going to kill mods" is ridiculous, and I'm not saying that because I think they're benevolent; I'm saying that because I think their entire business model is based on their games being modded.

 

What might happen eventually is them extending their "verified creation" thing to Doom. That's a possibility I find way more likely than them killing off source ports or imposing standards or what-have-you. However, I'm not sure it'd really work in a game engine where you can already publish your own game on Steam without having to go through them.

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Posted (edited)

I read through most of this and scanned through the rest. I am a little saddened by the reaction of the community overall. I had really hoped that by now after more than 30 years we collectively as a community would be more unified than we are. All I see is the same old divisions that have existed since the original source release.

 

Many might not agree with me on this, but I see ID24 as an attempt to at least try to unify Doom for the common masses. Which is great! We need that. But, why did it need to take corporate-backed effort for that to at least be attempted? How crazy is it that the ancient zombified corpse of DeHacked had to once again be picked apart and beaten into dust simply because that was the only way to come close to satisfying most parts of the community?

 

We are going to need another "The community is falling" wad after this drama. Imagine the irony of that.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Sneezy McGlassFace said:

Fallout and skyrim modders are thriving despite bethesda, I would argue, not thanks to bethesda.

I'd argue it's because of the latter, because those modders can at least thrive knowing that Bethesda (or at least Microsoft to an extent) is openly pro-modding. Modders wouldn't be able to ever claim something like that with any AAA games from a company with an at-best neutral and at-worst very negative stance on modding.

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3 hours ago, Quasar said:

Given demo compatibility with Doom + Doom II is not a goal, I don't believe there's any expectation that Boom/MBF complevels should get retroactively broken. The unfortunate reality will just be that mods would need to work around the differences if they want to run properly on the official port. Even in the best case scenario I doubt ALL the divergences will get fixed.


If ID24 is a superset of MBF21 and there are divergences, doesn't that mean that community-developed ID24 mods will stand a decent chance of also being broken diverging in the d+d2 engine, and will have to pick whether to work in d+d2 OR community source ports? How hard will it be to work around these divergences for an ID24 mod to work the same in both d+d2 and Eternity, for example?

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Posted (edited)

I haven't seen another thread go in circles more, I feel after questions get answered it's like people magically forget and they act like nothing happened prior

 

I don't even know what the issue is, we have the modding specs, pre-ready code to implement into source ports, we have the exclusive assets required for said specs to work, and it's been made extremely clear Nightdive/id/Zenimax/Bethesda/Microsoft doesn't give two shits about policing the doom community, this is ridiculous, it's turning into speculative conspiratorial bullshit, with all the drama going on you'd be thinking Microsoft did a Nintendo-style sweep on ModDB or something but no it's people being really weird about...what the fuck was it again, "Paywalled" content? as if you didn't already need Doom 2 to play any of the fine mods here? Not to mention this port isn't even a replacement for every source port ever made as many people are afraid of i'm reading, I don't understand how the thread isn't closed already because it's clear i don't see any development coming of this anymore, not to mention it's becoming less and less about ID24 with each passing day

 

PLEASE correct me if i'm not seeing anything important here

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36 minutes ago, Sneezy McGlassFace said:

But with all that in mind, am I crazy for wanting the divide between the business side and the creative side as wide as possible?

Well then, don't mod for Doom.

 

You can mod for Rekkr, or for Selaco, or for Beyond Sunset, or for Hedon, or for Supplice, or for any other of these games, and know that your mod will not bring any publicity to Bethesda-owned franchises, and will not work on the Bethesda-published port, and will not help Bethesda get more sales of Doom + Doom II. Or you can work on your own custom game! Just don't make it compatible with the D+D2 executable and you're safe.

 

But don't make Doom mods. They own Doom. Even if you make an Eternity or GZDoom mod just to make sure it can't be played on their port, it'll still be a Doom mod that requires owning Doom and that'll be free publicity for the Doom game. If you want to thwart Bethesda, if you want to widen the gap, don't make Doom mods, don't stream Doom mods, don't write about Doom mods. They'll go away once the game stops being popular.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Psychagogic said:

How hard will it be to work around these divergences for an ID24 mod to work the same in both d+d2 and Eternity, for example?

 

I don't know the answer of how to measure the difficulty of workarounds as it pertains to Doom + Doom II specifically, but it's worth mentioning that this is well trodden ground when it comes to ports like GZDoom.  There has never been a point where you could develop a map against a single port and assumed it worked in all others.

 

Heck, one of the things I had to fix at the last minute in IDDM1 were some non-working switches due to ZDoom-based assumptions that "Use" could pass through other special lines.  Doesn't work in BOOM, but was never caught because most of the existing online source ports are ZDoom-based.  You might think that it's a rookie mistake, but lots of maps have similar issues, including The Mucus Flow.

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Quote

Sector tinting

Sectors can now have colormaps applied directly to them without needing to use Boom’s property transfer line specials. It is also entirely possible to do this dynamically thanks to interactive line special types. When defining the colormap, you set the upper texture to the wanted lump name of the colormap when using the static special or when activating the line from the front side; and the lower texture when activating from the back side.

If a lump is not found with the provided name, or if the upper/lower textures are not set, the sector’s colormap is cleared and it uses the current default colormap (as set with the property transfer zone you are in).

When a sector’s colormap is set this way, it entirely overrides the default colormap (including property transfers, excluding powerups).

This seems like it would invite trouble for source ports using hardware-accelerated hardware renderers supporting HD texture packs since those are poorly equipped to handle colormaps.

 

I'd suggest adding in an additional mandatory lump describing colormaps and their mapping to RGBA color values to deal with this problem.

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3 hours ago, LexiMax said:

I don't think so either.  It's just kind of frustrating, because I'd love to have deeper conversations on - say - the morality of reverse-engineering GPL code for the purposes of re-licensing, or how the same controversy shook out in the Fallout/Skyrim modding community.

You don't get responses on that because participating in such a debate will only get you enemies. There's no room for nuance on the Internet, unfortunately.

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For the tranmaps, a mandatory lump describing those with their alpha levels should also be added since those too are poorly handled by hardware renderers.

 

(I still sincerely hope GooberMan reads this as well after all that happened here).

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, LexiMax said:

 

I don't think so either.  It's just kind of frustrating, because I'd love to have deeper conversations on - say - the morality of reverse-engineering GPL code for the purposes of re-licensing, or how the same controversy shook out in the Fallout/Skyrim modding community.

 

Yet somehow, those posts don't get responses, and we keep getting stuck on the same, surface-level commentary about capitalism, intellectual property, and vague fearmongering of what the IP holders could do in the future.

as someone who doesn't understand much about this situation, are people claiming neo-ID and bethesda releasing a new mapping format, and in console modding will lead to bethesda trying to replace/kill zdoom and other community ports? I've been paying more attention to the vault goodies, and not much on the controversies regarding the new port. what I do now is that we got an early release, and Id is working on releasing a fully baked version soon.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, St. Mildly Annoyed said:

as someone who doesn't understand much about this situation, are people claiming neo-ID and bethesda releasing a new mapping format, and in console modding will lead to bethesda trying to replace/kill zdoom and other community ports?

Something like that, yeah, just wait until the source ports catch up, i give it either end of this year or start of next year, when that happens this weird nothing outrage will be all for naught

I swear if literally anyone else presented this spec people would be significantly less upset for weird unrelated reasons that people are making up in their head

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Obsidian Plague said:

Something like that, yeah, just wait until the source ports catch up, i give it either end of this year or start of next year, when that happens this weird nothing outrage will be all for naught

I swear if literally anyone else presented this spec people would be significantly less upset for weird unrelated reasons that people are making up in their head

plus, graph hall - or whoever else is currently contributing to gzdoom- is probably already cooking something up.

Edited by St. Mildly Annoyed

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Can you DOOM nerds get back to making wads now please?

 

*that was a joke BTW, I’m grateful for everything that happens in these boards. ❤️ 

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38 minutes ago, nobleflame said:

Can you DOOM nerds get back to making wads now please?

already on it. I've actually made 3 levels recently, but haven't had the confidence to post them to doomworld.

 

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hell yea

 

Edit: Since I'm here..

I am actually quite interested in the new features of ID24, certainly the weapon dehacked stuff and I do have a small idea I would like to try out. Keen to see what others get up to.

 

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2 hours ago, Cacodemon345 said:

For the tranmaps, a mandatory lump describing those with their alpha levels should also be added since those too are poorly handled by hardware renderers.

 

(I still sincerely hope GooberMan reads this as well after all that happened here).

Tranmaps support any arbitrary blends on a per-palette-color basis, not just simple alpha translucency. You can use them to hue-shift or gradient-map a subset of the palette (or the entire palette), turn something monochrome or invert what's behind it, additively or subtractively blend, apply a transparency mask, etc., the options are limitless really. GooberMan has been talking on Discord about a way to handle this properly in hardware renderers, and I believe he'll be posting about it in the near future.

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