Modern rerelease/port of Wolf 3D when?

[Warboss_Gegguz]

Wasn't sure where to put this to talk/vent, but I think it needs to be addressed: Will a good COMPLETE version of Wolf 3D EVER come to consoles?

 

Virtually every other major id property has had an updated console port except Commander Keen and Wolfenstein 3D (unless we're counting the joke version from New Colossus). The only worthwhile console port of Wolf 3D even after 32 years is the 3DO version. Which is really ironic given the state of 3DO Doom.

 

The SNES port added new weapons but the censorship is a joke and it has only second encounter levels with no sprite rotations, Jaguar Wolf 3D has no censorship + great visuals and music but is identical to the SNES version otherwise, the GBA version is painful, and the 360 version is accurate but has no SOD and weird 1/2 speed music for no reason. The 3DO is best basically just by default, because it's just a 1:1 port of the Mac version, though that also means there's again no rotations at the cost of new weapons and higher resolution visuals.

 

And this isn't even addressing if it should be based on the DOS or Mac version, since each has some strength and weaknesses. The dream for me would be some option/toggle for the Flamethrower and Bazooka before starting an episode, and perhaps a graphical toggle that would use the updated HD assets (which are just Mac/Jaguar Sprites with rotation frames https://bitbucket.org/Ringman/wolf3dhd/src/master/).

 

IDK, it's just the more remasters and ports of even the most obscure 90s shooters come out and the more Wolf 3D is ignored, the more sort of "wrong" it feels to me. Like we're ignoring history. I get it's a bit simple for modern audiences, but it's what codified the entire FPS genre. Not to mention games like Project Warlock and Wizordum show there's merit to it's approach even post-Doom.

 

We've now had 2 Doom remasters in 1 generation (3 if you count the version in D3BFGE) along with Quake 1 and 2, and 3 "alternate timeline" Wolfenstein games, one of which includes new (terrible) levels for a gag version of wolf 3D built into the game... but there's no just NORMAL version of Wolfenstein that runs natively on PC and console being sold. I'm not trying to just rant or crack the whip or anything, I just wanna know if it will ever even happen at this point. Hell, it could just be ECWolf with a price-tag and I'd be down. Just some acknowledgement would be nice.

 

IDK, feel free to let me know what your thoughts are and how you would go about doing this. Because as said, with so many differences between versions it's hard to make a "definitive" version of Wolf 3D without significant overhauls.

 

There's mods that do things similar to what I described (namely https://www.moddb.com/mods/second-encounter-deluxe-edition-incl-third-encounter-and-halten-sie and https://www.moddb.com/mods/wolfenstein-3d-hd) but those are obviously unofficial and also each make weird unnecessary changes. If I could just have Mac family weapons in Wolf 3D and SOD even without the upgraded visuals, I'd be happy.

 

Anyways, this went way longer than intended but I don't feel like I can cut anything out so :P LMK your thoughts.

[Metal_Slayer]

About half of Wolfenstein is freeware, which also happens to be the best half of it. How do you even market something like that? A lot of people only know about Wolf3D because of the impact it had on it's successor. I think it's a game that is not economically viable to remaster, it would probably fit the compiilation style rerelease, where it's packed with a few similar games from the id/Apogee before Doom-era.

[Murdoch]

Doom has never been remastered. The assests are basically identical to 1.9, warts and all. Remastering involves actually improving the original assets in some way. The Quake re-release was a partial remaster as some models were improved. 

 

I think the biggest issue with an updated Wolf3d would be the code, which is 16 bit. Apart from game logic, everything else would need to be rebuilt from scratch. It's not as simple as licensing something like ECWolf because that would need to be updated for console support too. Either way it's a lot of work for a game which, as important as it is, lacks the appeal and recognition of Doom. I doubt MicroBethestid would see it as a viable product with a chance of a decent ROI.

 

[GibFrag]

To whoever:

 

-We can assume Spear of Destiny would be included, but if I were them I would not include the mission packs. Instead, showcase something like this (a community map pack mod) as substitute. This is a far more enjoyable experience than either of those combined (and it is DOS compatible so would not be hard to convert to whatever code bases).

 

-SNES/Jaguar/Mac/3DO all have various differences, but they all use the same maps and game style. This collection of maps (known as The Second Encounter) could be retooled into an addon.
 

-Make damn sure the music and adlib sounds sound correct. This has been a repeat failure for most of the ports (and likely why many console ports used different audio entirely). 
 

-Everyone wants a SNES style map view, give them something so they don’t get lost in a 64x64 grid.
 

-Allow a toggle for turning on/off HITWALL and DONOTHING adlib sounds, or at the very least remove them altogether. Trust me. Fail to do this and see how quickly that becomes the first complaint. 
 

-Romero has talked long ago about having prerelease Wolf 3D content. There’s already several builds of the game that are prerelease (oh and a capstone dev kit sent by Id with tons of cool stuff), but not much of the really early stuff has been seen. It is already known that stealth elements were implemented (no, they were not just concepts, many remnants of cut features still exist in the source code), that there was at some point an explosive mine weapon, and of course that the game started as an EGA art game. There’s likely something here that could be put together for some sort of idvault.

-If it is released censored, I can hear the complaints already and their complaints I agree with. While I am aware the game has been lifted from bans in Germany a while back, I’m sure they will still have to censor it even if at the very least changing the title track and E2L1+5/E5L1+5 tracks due to that song specifically being banned. Replace the title theme with this, and for E2L1+5/E5L1+5 replace it with this, they get the same overall point across.

 

If Pac-Man stuff has to be removed because parody isn’t allowed these days, don’t be lame and just replace the ghosts with fake hitlers. Replace the ghosts objects as a single character that is just the SOD spectre art but cannot be killed. Just don’t forget they’re not just in E3L10 like the last official ports did ;) oh and if the music has to be changed, this fits. If the Pac-Man level itself poses a threat to Namco, then I’m sure DieHard Wolfer mappers would be willing to submit entries for a chance to be the map selected to fill that now vacant spot. The swastika level may have to be remade too. 

 

If further censorship is necessary, like Nintendo level censorship where all swastikas and nazi imagery have to be removed, then go all in with making at least self aware. Just basically do what Id did with the SNES version. 
 

Let me be clear I don’t like the idea of censoring the game, but it would be pretty nontrivial to swap out the censored stuff with the real deal. It’s already been done with the SNES version, but if it must be so, don’t do it half assed where it matters most like the one in TNC was. Those new levels were clearly made by people with no grasp on what makes a Wolfenstein 3d map fun, and just swapping Pac-Man with fake hitlers shows lack of care. 

 

-If adding mods is going to be a thing, this could get tricky. Anything that doesn’t require a different EXE should likely work out of the box. EC/LZWolf mods support a pk3 file system much like Doom mods, but for most major Wolf 3D mods they will have changed source codes for DOS or SDL. Even the Mac version had a modding scene. 
 

-Make the score system more modern, not in a way that changes how it works in-game but more so with leaderboards and whatnot. Add different boards for different feats like par time challenges for speedrunning or whatever.  
 

-I sort of touched on this earlier, but for the love of fuck please, if you’re going to rerelease Wolfenstein 3d: Involve THE community, not this community, but the community that actually loves this game. You can reach out on DieHard Wolfers, which is the best way to reach the community because the main wolf 3d related discord servers have a bot that sends out alerts when a new post is made on that forum. Please, don’t shit the bed and just deal with Doom people to make this, it will show. Don’t fundamentally change the game to please people who aren’t even fans to begin with. Take the opportunity to help another community grow. 
 

I don’t expect it to happen or anything I said to make any difference if it actually does happen, but that’s okay. We’ll continue to churn out maps and mods with or without a rerelease. 

[Panzermann11]

That's some nice suggestions for a re-release, @GibFrag. One thing I'd add is to make changes to the saving system, since the lives system is useless with how you can save anytime, anywhere. I'd make it so you can only save at certain checkpoints placed around maps and when you complete a level. Alternatively, the lives system can just be removed altogether.

[Warboss_Gegguz]

10 hours ago, Murdoch said:

Doom has never been remastered. The assests are basically identical to 1.9, warts and all. Remastering involves actually improving the original assets in some way.

 

 

Glitches were ironed out, new music, modern mod support, new MP servers, new levels (going back to the 360 version of Doom 2), modern resolutions, hardware rendering support, and most obviously the ability to run natively on modern operating systems.

 

It's a bit silly to argue that "the sprites/models and textures are the same = not a remaster". The only version that could be considered just a straight port would be Chocolate Doom since it does literally nothing new except have novert optionally built in and run natively on modern OS. The Dosbox versions don't even count since they're emulation.

 

And in the case of Quake 1 and 2, you don't even technically need the rerelease. The original executables work, they just suck.

 

Either way the title says rerelease/port rather than remaster because that's all I really want. I was just proposing ways to improve the experience similar to the Doom and Quake rereleases. Especially when, as said, the different ports and rereleases of Wolf 3D all have some unique offerings and quirks, just like early Doom ports. That's the whole reason stuff like MacenWolf and The Console Collection exist. 

 

The main reason I would even propose using Mac Family weapons, textures, and sprites (preferably with added rotations) is twofold. One, I feel like lack of weapon variety is a weakness of DOS Wolf 3D, and that's one of the few things the Mac Family versions "fix". Two, I feel like a super vanilla version of Wolf 3D is a much harder sell to modern audiences than Doom or Quake, sadly.

 

The whole impression you get from the mainstream is that it was "that game id made that laid the groundwork for Doom", rather than a solid game in its own right. An optional fresh coat of paint would be a decent way to help change that perspective. Note, OPTIONAL. Like the remastered models in Quake. The main issue with the ports in question is their lack of faithfulness to the OG after all.

[Warboss_Gegguz]

3 hours ago, Panzermann11 said:

That's some nice suggestions for a re-release, @GibFrag. One thing I'd add is to make changes to the saving system, since the lives system is useless with how you can save anytime, anywhere. I'd make it so you can only save at certain checkpoints placed around maps and when you complete a level. Alternatively, the lives system can just be removed altogether.

 

I know it's a totally different beast, but I honestly think the approach Brutal Wolfenstein took is probably the best, with lives just being subbed out for either full heals and treasure/weapons/ammo. Likewise, it made the whole incentive of treasure a mix of completionism and ammo/weapon/health bonuses rather than a high score table.

 

Spoiler

 

Unrelated, but that is probably one of the best fanmade remakes of a game ever (up there with SORR and AM2R), and possibly the best Wolfenstein game. The OG levels rebuilt and remastered on the Doom Engine, new enemies, an absurd amount of weapons, slide and dual wield mechanics from New Order, remastered/orchestral soundtrack, most obviously the gore... I could fucking gush about that project for like a hour. Completely outshines Brutal Doom and BD64 imo. 

 

The sense of wonder and action in it is basically what I imagine Wolf 3D felt like to people in the early 90s. Like Inglourious Basterds meets The Great Escape and Where Eagles Dare.

 

 

[Murdoch]

6 hours ago, Warboss_Gegguz said:

Glitches were ironed out, new music, modern mod support, new MP servers, new levels (going back to the 360 version of Doom 2), modern resolutions, hardware rendering support, and most obviously the ability to run natively on modern operating systems.

 

Yeah, that's a port. By that logic GZDoom is a remaster of Doom and it's  clearly not. I will concede the music point though, i forgot about that, but remasters usually involve upgraded art assets to some degree and Doom's haven't been touched.

Edited August 13 by Murdoch

[Austrian Oak]

12 hours ago, GibFrag said:

To whoever:

 

-We can assume Spear of Destiny would be included, but if I were them I would not include the mission packs. Instead, showcase something like this (a community map pack mod) as substitute. This is a far more enjoyable experience than either of those combined (and it is DOS compatible so would not be hard to convert to whatever code bases).

 

-SNES/Jaguar/Mac/3DO all have various differences, but they all use the same maps and game style. This collection of maps (known as The Second Encounter) could be retooled into an addon.
 

-Make damn sure the music and adlib sounds sound correct. This has been a repeat failure for most of the ports (and likely why many console ports used different audio entirely). 
 

-Everyone wants a SNES style map view, give them something so they don’t get lost in a 64x64 grid.
 

-Allow a toggle for turning on/off HITWALL and DONOTHING adlib sounds, or at the very least remove them altogether. Trust me. Fail to do this and see how quickly that becomes the first complaint. 
 

-Romero has talked long ago about having prerelease Wolf 3D content. There’s already several builds of the game that are prerelease (oh and a capstone dev kit sent by Id with tons of cool stuff), but not much of the really early stuff has been seen. It is already known that stealth elements were implemented (no, they were not just concepts, many remnants of cut features still exist in the source code), that there was at some point an explosive mine weapon, and of course that the game started as an EGA art game. There’s likely something here that could be put together for some sort of idvault.

-If it is released censored, I can hear the complaints already and their complaints I agree with. While I am aware the game has been lifted from bans in Germany a while back, I’m sure they will still have to censor it even if at the very least changing the title track and E2L1+5/E5L1+5 tracks due to that song specifically being banned. Replace the title theme with this, and for E2L1+5/E5L1+5 replace it with this, they get the same overall point across.

 

If Pac-Man stuff has to be removed because parody isn’t allowed these days, don’t be lame and just replace the ghosts with fake hitlers. Replace the ghosts objects as a single character that is just the SOD spectre art but cannot be killed. Just don’t forget they’re not just in E3L10 like the last official ports did ;) oh and if the music has to be changed, this fits. If the Pac-Man level itself poses a threat to Namco, then I’m sure DieHard Wolfer mappers would be willing to submit entries for a chance to be the map selected to fill that now vacant spot. The swastika level may have to be remade too. 

 

If further censorship is necessary, like Nintendo level censorship where all swastikas and nazi imagery have to be removed, then go all in with making at least self aware. Just basically do what Id did with the SNES version. 
 

Let me be clear I don’t like the idea of censoring the game, but it would be pretty nontrivial to swap out the censored stuff with the real deal. It’s already been done with the SNES version, but if it must be so, don’t do it half assed where it matters most like the one in TNC was. Those new levels were clearly made by people with no grasp on what makes a Wolfenstein 3d map fun, and just swapping Pac-Man with fake hitlers shows lack of care. 

 

-If adding mods is going to be a thing, this could get tricky. Anything that doesn’t require a different EXE should likely work out of the box. EC/LZWolf mods support a pk3 file system much like Doom mods, but for most major Wolf 3D mods they will have changed source codes for DOS or SDL. Even the Mac version had a modding scene. 
 

-Make the score system more modern, not in a way that changes how it works in-game but more so with leaderboards and whatnot. Add different boards for different feats like par time challenges for speedrunning or whatever.  
 

-I sort of touched on this earlier, but for the love of fuck please, if you’re going to rerelease Wolfenstein 3d: Involve THE community, not this community, but the community that actually loves this game. You can reach out on DieHard Wolfers, which is the best way to reach the community because the main wolf 3d related discord servers have a bot that sends out alerts when a new post is made on that forum. Please, don’t shit the bed and just deal with Doom people to make this, it will show. Don’t fundamentally change the game to please people who aren’t even fans to begin with. Take the opportunity to help another community grow. 
 

I don’t expect it to happen or anything I said to make any difference if it actually does happen, but that’s okay. We’ll continue to churn out maps and mods with or without a rerelease. 

Do it now!

[unerxai]

I agree. Also the other Doom engine games (Heretic/Hexen) have also been overlooked for too long. Thankfully very good source ports exists for these games.

 

Btw, I noticed a few weeks ago that they added a game selection screen in Wolf3D in the same style of the game menus. It's the same game running on DOSBox but they added that little thing at the beginning. I thought it was kinda cute.

[Wadmodder Shalton]

On 8/12/2024 at 8:05 PM, Murdoch said:

I think the biggest issue with an updated Wolf3d would be the code, which is 16 bit. Apart from game logic, everything else would need to be rebuilt from scratch. It's not as simple as licensing something like ECWolf because that would need to be updated for console support too. Either way it's a lot of work for a game which, as important as it is, lacks the appeal and recognition of Doom. I doubt MicroBethestid would see it as a viable product with a chance of a decent ROI.

Also because id Software never rereleased the source code for either Wolf3D or Spear of Destiny to the GPL, making a remaster more difficult to pull off.

[Murdoch]

13 minutes ago, Wadmodder Shalton said:

Also because id Software never rereleased the source code for either Wolf3D or Spear of Destiny to the GPL, making a remaster more difficult to pull off.

 

Doesn't need to be GPL. It's their code. They can do as they please with it. Plenty of remastered games have come out which have never seen any form of source release, GPL or otherwise. 

[Murdoch]

On 8/14/2024 at 7:17 AM, unerxai said:

Also the other Doom engine games (Heretic/Hexen) have also been overlooked for too long.

 

Heretic and Hexen's rights were held by Activision. That's why nothing has officially happened to them. Activision simply didn't care. Now Microsoft has gobbled them up, that may change. 

[Master O]

57 minutes ago, Wadmodder Shalton said:

Also because id Software never rereleased the source code for either Wolf3D or Spear of Destiny to the GPL, making a remaster more difficult to pull off.

 

Since the subject of the source code came up: https://github.com/id-Software/wolf3d

 

 

[Gez]

1 hour ago, Master O said:

Since the subject of the source code came up: https://github.com/id-Software/wolf3d

Yeah, read the license, it's hilarious impractical. For example:

Quote

Grant of License. ID grants to you the right to use one (1) copy of the Software on a single computer. You have no ownership or proprietary rights in or to the Software, or the Trademark. For purposes of this section, "use" means loading the Software into RAM, as well as installation on a hard disk or other storage device. The Software, together with any archive copy thereof, shall be destroyed when no longer used in accordance with this Agreement, or when the right to use the Software is terminated. You agree that the Software will not be shipped, transferred or exported into any country in violation of the U.S. Export Administration Act (or any other law governing such matters) and that you will not utilize, in any other manner, the Software in violation of any applicable law.

 

[GibFrag]

Why would they need to rerelease the source code? Also, the source they released decades ago encompasses ALL versions of DOS Wolf 3d/Spear. You can compile shareware (WL1), registered (WL3), and full (WL6) as well as Spear Demo (SDM) and Spear Full (SOD) via use of VERSION.H. 
 

Honestly after some thinking, I hope we don’t see a rerelease of Wolf 3D because it will definitely be half assed and not made with any sort of passion. Just look how most people here perceive the game in general or how they basically want to reinvent the game to be nothing like the original. Id doesn’t care about Wolf 3D anyhow, and Nightdive likely doesn’t either.

Edited September 9 by GibFrag

[Blzut3]

Indeed the source code license is irrelevant for id.  To recap that situation: Wolf3D's source code was never repackaged with the GPL license.  The iOS version of Wolf3D is based off Wolf3D Redux in March 2009 (before Zenimax buyout) and is GPL (to the extent that an iOS program can).  This code is pretty heavily modified although Wolf3D Redux's source code does acknowledge code originating from Wolf3D and it's definitely not clean room from scratch.  Carmack in 2011 was asked if this implied the original code is usable under GPL, and Carmack (still working at id Software at the time) stated that it was relicensed "years ago."  (See copyright file of Debian wolf4sdl package.)

 

Of note, until 8 months ago apparently, Doom also never had a straight GPL release from id Software.  The 1999 package was a fan repack based off similar email communication (although I'm not sure if a copy of this email communication was preserved?  Not that it really matters).  It too had an iOS release, although released after the buyout, which acknowledged the GPL license.  Only reason Wolf3D's is controversial is that that email evidence we have for it was obtained after the Zenimax buyout.

 

Aside: I can't verify if the older versions of Wolf3D Redux were licensed as GPL since it seems those got deleted, but either way the iOS code id released is definitely GPL.  It does seem likely though given that NewWolf was marked as GPL.

 

Personally I'm comfortable with calling it GPL, but make of that what you will.

 

Edit: I should have probably also mentioned that the JavaScript port of Wolf3D is also GPL and at a glance that's mostly a mechanical translation of the C code.

Edited September 11 by Blzut3

[Marmiteman02]

On 9/9/2024 at 7:25 PM, Murdoch said:

 

Heretic and Hexen's rights were held by Activision. That's why nothing has officially happened to them. Activision simply didn't care. Now Microsoft has gobbled them up, that may change. 

 

i would love to see a brand new Episode made for Heretic like we have had with Doom/Doom 2.

[Murdoch]

11 minutes ago, Marmiteman02 said:

 

i would love to see a brand new Episode made for Heretic like we have had with Doom/Doom 2.

 

Been plenty of new episodes made by the community over the years. Nowhere near as many as Doom, but they are definitely out there.

[Andromeda]

On 8/13/2024 at 3:17 AM, Metal_Slayer said:

About half of Wolfenstein is freeware, which also happens to be the best half of it.

What do you mean? Sure, Wolfenstein 3D's first episode is shareware and Spear of Destiny had a two level demo, that makes 12 levels free of charge. However Wolf3D + SoD + Mission packs is comprised of 123 levels, so 12 is not even 10% of the complete package. Even if we exclude the Mission packs it's 81 levels and 12 is still nowhere near half of that.

[Blzut3]

They're referring to the JavaScript version which indeed allowed anyone to play the first three episodes.  I don't know if it's still up in an official capacity.

[Metal_Slayer]

7 hours ago, Andromeda said:

What do you mean? Sure, Wolfenstein 3D's first episode is shareware and Spear of Destiny had a two level demo, that makes 12 levels free of charge. However Wolf3D + SoD + Mission packs is comprised of 123 levels, so 12 is not even 10% of the complete package. Even if we exclude the Mission packs it's 81 levels and 12 is still nowhere near half of that.

I sure remember the first three episodes being available on id Software's official website. It was either wolfenstein.com or idsoftware.com/en/wolfenstein , now that leads into Youngblood's store page. 

[GibFrag]

@Metal_Slayer, Yes, it was a browser version that had the three episodes available and removed episodes 4-6 from the menu entirely. 

[Marmiteman02]

10 hours ago, Murdoch said:

 

Been plenty of new episodes made by the community over the years. Nowhere near as many as Doom, but they are definitely out there.

 

I meant in the case of say, Nerve Software or Machine Games developing a new Episode.

[Gez]

Nerve ain't gonna develop any new episode; they're gone.

[GibFrag]

1 hour ago, Marmiteman02 said:

 

I meant in the case of say, Nerve Software or Machine Games developing a new Episode.

Machine Games had to replace certain levels in the Easter egg for Wolfenstein TNC, and those new levels were shit. 

[Master O]

13 hours ago, Marmiteman02 said:

 

i would love to see a brand new Episode made for Heretic like we have had with Doom/Doom 2.

 

Heretic 3: Getting Medieval On Your Arses

[Kinsie]

On 8/13/2024 at 1:05 PM, Murdoch said:

I think the biggest issue with an updated Wolf3d would be the code, which is 16 bit.

MachineGames did a modern rewrite of the Wolf3D code for the arcade machine in The New Colossus.

Quote

The programmer responsible for the technical implementation is Senior Programmer Olle Rosenquist. He re-wrote the entire code for Wolfenstein 3D - everything is remade again from the ground up, it runs its own thread and updates a single texture on the arcade cabinet. It even replicates the proper IBM Mode 13h. The game supports loading, saving, and everything that the original Wolf3D had, contrary to popular belief it is not an an emulation.

Personally I find it very impressive how he got Wolf3D to function within the game and draw it on a single texture. Regarding the development of Wolfstone 3D Olle says:

Quote

[It was] Interesting to go back and see how they made everything work with the resources they had at the time, especially some of the self-modifying rendering code. Was less fun to make it comply with the modern world of localization and console technical requirements, different profiles/ save-slots and now there's 2 games to bug test since it's a real proper game running (not an emulator) within the 'real' one.

 

 

11 hours ago, GibFrag said:

Machine Games had to replace certain levels in the Easter egg for Wolfenstein TNC, and those new levels were shit. 

This was before certain legal changes in Germany that allowed games to depict Unconstitutional Symbols under the same allowances and circumstances that are granted to movies and such*. The original MS-DOS version of Wolfenstein 3D was made available uncensored in Germany a few years ago.

 

(* It's still a bit of a process where you have to justify it, which is why you'll see stuff like the Doom 2 secret levels get a bit of twiddling to avoid all the paperwork.)

[Edward850]

Both you and @GibFrag are forgetting something important: the arcade machine reversed the whole context. It was called WolfStone 3D and you were Elite Hans fighting the Kreisau Circle, which is why the maps changed.

[GibFrag]

Yes, that is true. The level replacements were still rather poor to play through. Long narrow hallways with weird item placements, etc. It was a change because of the context, but I’d hope if they were to come together to make a new episode or addon, they would be a bit more inspired than they were for that floor.