Concerns and thoughts with where modding goes from here?

[Faceman2000]

I just want the new weapons and monsters to get widespread acceptance. :(

 

I can take or leave anything else haha.

[Donowa]

could someone explain what's being said here? i'm dizzy from all these constant posts complaining about how the upload system is flawed, it feels like i'm running in circles with the constant parrotting of "oh well this needs quality control and verification" and "just use the report button lmao" and i feel like some other aspects (like the lack of an option to load .wad files from your hard drive) are getting lost in the stampede

Edited August 14 by Donowa

[prfunky]

5 minutes ago, Donowa said:

could someone explain what's being said here? i'm dizzy from all these constant posts complaining about how the upload system is flawed, it feels like i'm running in circles

 

Well, we could explain it to you...

 

but your head would blow up!

 

(Joking, of course, I can barely keep up myself.)

 

[Celestin]

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if this whole mod browser gets nuked because every other wad uses copyrighted content (music from other games, midi versions of songs, some borrowed assets etc.). I know the community has always been like this and I doubt anyone will go after /idgames archives, but the mods hosted by Bethesda on their side - that's a different story.

[RataUnderground]

What many people don't seem to realize is that mods, as they have been working until now, only produce profit to the company that owns Doom (And it's the same case in any other game in the history of gaming, by the way). There is absolutely no reason to discourage them, not even from the most cynical and capitalistic point of view possible. Mods represent unpaid labor and a constant, enthusiastic and inexhaustible marketing value that can't be crafted with money, in favor of a commercial product. Most videogames companies would kill for an active comunity that makes mods.

So if Microsoft/Zenimax/Bethesda/id/Nightdive were to harm the mod scene in any way, it would be unintentional and caused by stupidity, not greed or malice. But I don't think such a scenario is the actual one.

 

That said, I think the current situation has had consequences:

 

-The first is that, unnecessarily, the community has become divided in an ideological debate where everyone sees ghosts where there are none. There has been panic in a very damaging way, and daggers have been flying in a way that I dare say has broken good terms in a way that is difficult to repair. I hope that in time we will all come to see that there was no reason to discuss in such an aggressive way something that is basically insignificant.

 

-It is possible that Bethesda's new database, especially if it improves its status, will become the new “hub” where new fans will discover and share mods, relegating idgames and the old forums to an even more niche and unknown role for the general public. I don't think this will have an impact on modders and mappers per se, but it may have an impact on the way the community interacts. We're small enough here that we're all known nicknames among the regulars, but if new players abandon this form of communication because they consider the forum as an intermediary unnecessary, that part that brings new blood to the community will never interact with the rest or integrate.
I could also be wrong and that the sheer abundance of mods directly searchable in the new sourceport attracts people who want to interact with the community and who would never have had that desire if they had stuck with the Iwads in the official port and nothing else.

 

-The part that the new release affects the most is other sourceports. The new sourceport takes up a lot of space and visibility, and calls into question the need for developing other sourceports. In the eyes of most people outside the scene, they will probably never find out that there are more worthwhile sourceports than GzDoom, since it is unnecessary to go looking for them if the official port can already play the vast majority of non-GzDoom-specific mods and megawads in a way that is faithful to the classic aesthetics and gameplay. I am not a fortune teller and I don't know what this could mean, probably nothing since humans are stubborn and people will continue developing their projects even if they don't have an audience, but I have the impression that over the years, the number of maintained and active sourceports will decrease.

 

I'm sorry if some expressions or words in this text are strange, since English is not my first language, but I hope I haven't messed up too much.

[Caffeine Freak]

5 hours ago, Major Arlene said:

Bethesda knows good and damn well that pissing off its mod scene will be the death of them. they've literally just given us unfettered access to idStudio (Doom Eternal's modding engine) so I highly doubt they'll just up and delete modding from the equation. They're making it easier, not harder.

 

Thank you thank you THANK YOU for pointing this out, since this has somehow gone seemingly unnoticed the past several days amidst all the hysterical finger pointing and amphetamine-fueled paranoia that has plagued these forums.

 

No, you should never implicitly *trust* that a big game company is never going to stomp all over your toys and throw them in the trash. But I honestly don't understand the logic that would be required for a game company to publicly release it's full suite of proprietary development tools for their latest AAA releases, completely free of charge, but *simultaneously* become more aggressive in restricting modding for one of it's 30 year-old games---especially when said company still makes $$$ off said game partially due to the longevity of its modding scene maintaining public interest. That wouldn't be just mixed messaging or bad corporate strategy, it would be straight-up schizophrenia.

 

5 hours ago, inkoalawetrust said:

Wait what? They did? You can make mods on the new id Tech engines now?

 

Yes. Yes, you can. Enjoy:

 

https://idstudio.idsoftware.com/

[philcul]

On 8/15/2024 at 2:40 AM, Caffeine Freak said:

But I honestly don't understand the logic that would be required for a game company to publicly release it's full suite of proprietary development tools for their latest AAA releases, completely free of charge, but *simultaneously* become more aggressive in restricting modding for one of it's 30 year-old games---especially when said company still makes $$$ off said game partially due to the longevity of its modding scene maintaining public interest. That wouldn't be just mixed messaging or bad corporate strategy, it would be straight-up schizophrenia.

 

Yeah, I just came here to post this. I really don't get why so many people suddenly think that Bethesda/id would crack down on or would be more restrictive regarding mods (including map-packs etc.) of an old game when they just released a really powerful modding tool for their newest game where you can create maps, edit models, animation, etc.

Edited August 16 by philcul

[RHhe82]

1 minute ago, philcul said:

 

Yeah, I just came here for posting this. I really don't get why so many people suddenly think that Bethesda/id would crack down or would be more restrictive when it comes down to modding an old game when they just released a really powerful modding tool for their newest game where you can create maps, edit models, animation, etc.

 

Another thing is that I believe this unhindered modding scene acts as a driving force to keep Doom as a franchise alive. They don't need to make big money on some new port of 30 year old game, but the popularity the modding scene upholds and keeps alive will result in great interest in the new games (which is where they will need to make profit). Basically it's free publicity. If they squelched the modding community, classic Doom would probably wither away and die, and the new Doom 6's and Doom 7's and whatnots would have harder time selling.

[Zoltán of Synthwave]

I may add that, overall I mostly understand the sentiment presented here, considering the current "zeitgest" if you will. People are wary of corporate influence: those are money-making machines, and often do make money from "blood", figuratively (sometimes literally), and it's not like either Bethesda or Microsoft has a clear record.

 

For the most part, however, I'm in favor of those who say nothing's going to change. Hard facts are on our side: the engine is open-source, FreeDoom is a thing, Doomworld is a solid establishment with its own database of mods, and video games gain a lot from healthy modding communities. All these facts together give a huge leverage for us against corporate greed.

 

The only concern I can see is copyright protection over certain materials - and that's a very minor inconvenience for most modders in the first place.

 

I can imagine collateral damage occuring if Bethesda tries to play dirty, but none of that seems debilitating to the modding community to me.

 

So I advise everyone to calm down, though I really enjoy reading your theories and insights in this thread; coming from Cyberpunk 2077 modding, I haven't seen discussions about modding this fundamental for some while.

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

11 hours ago, RataUnderground said:

There is absolutely no reason to discourage them, not even from the most cynical and capitalistic point of view possible. Mods represent unpaid labor and a constant, enthusiastic and inexhaustible marketing value that can't be crafted with money, in favor of a commercial product. Most videogames companies would kill for an active comunity that makes mods.

Could you please speak louder so Nintendo in the back hears this? I swear, some companies legit hate their fans. 

I agree with you, "most" companies realise this but even then there are people getting in trouble for modding their games, uncertainty and doubt is entirely warranted in my opinion. 

Less so in a community such as doom that's this free and open but still. 

 

Also, it seems to me that companies are taking mods much more seriously in a sense that isn't good for the community at all. How many corporate suits were crying crocodile tears over dota? Or team fortress? Or counter strike? 

If you make a map or midi or whatever, it's yours in the most literal sense. If you make a weapon in the creation club, you have to abide by their tight controls. And i didn't find what's the legal status of what you make/submit actually is during my lunch break so i leave it at that. 

Here's an old forum post of people sharing their thoughts i found very interesting. https://forums.nexusmods.com/topic/6078603-my-in-depth-opinion-about-the-creation-club-as-a-long-time-mod-maker/

[Gez]

41 minutes ago, Sneezy McGlassFace said:

If you make a map or midi or whatever, it's yours in the most literal sense. If you make a weapon in the creation club, you have to abide by their tight controls. And i didn't find what's the legal status of what you make/submit actually is during my lunch break so i leave it at that. 

Yes, but the Creation Club was a for-contract thing. If you were one of the authors that had joined the club, you could pitch an idea to Bethesda, and if they validated it, they'd pay you to make it, then do the QA themselves (insert "lol bethesda qa" meme here and move along) and then publish it. You'd get no money from the sales of the creations, effectively you sold your work to Bethesda, so you get paid to make it and then they sold it to players.

 

There was no obligation of putting all your stuff on the Club. I'm going to take Elianora as an example again because she's a very prolific modder, here you can see she never stopped putting more house mods on the Nexus even though she had put several on the Creation Club and now on the Verified Creations marketplace.

 

The Creation Club has now been discontinued. The Verified Creations thing that replaces them no longer has the mods as being official content. They no longer get paid by Bethesda to develop the mod, but they do get paid for each sale of their mods. The authors make what they want and sell it at the price they want.

 

The authors are still free to release mods on the Nexus or other places, too.

[Sneezy McGlassFace]

4 minutes ago, Gez said:

Yes, but the Creation Club was a for-contract thing. If you were one of the authors that had joined the club, you could pitch an idea to Bethesda, and if they validated it, they'd pay you to make it, then do the QA themselves (insert "lol bethesda qa" meme here and move along) and then publish it. You'd get no money from the sales of the creations, effectively you sold your work to Bethesda, so you get paid to make it and then they sold it to players.

 

There was no obligation of putting all your stuff on the Club. I'm going to take Elianora as an example again because she's a very prolific modder, here you can see she never stopped putting more house mods on the Nexus even though she had put several on the Creation Club and now on the Verified Creations marketplace.

 

The Creation Club has now been discontinued. The Verified Creations thing that replaces them no longer has the mods as being official content. They no longer get paid by Bethesda to develop the mod, but they do get paid for each sale of their mods. The authors make what they want and sell it at the price they want.

 

The authors are still free to release mods on the Nexus or other places, too.

Thanks for the clarification

[bobbie424242]

13 hours ago, Celestin said:

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if this whole mod browser gets nuked because every other wad uses copyrighted content (music from other games, midi versions of songs, some borrowed assets etc.). I know the community has always been like this and I doubt anyone will go after /idgames archives, but the mods hosted by Bethesda on their side - that's a different story.

 

Starfield mods are inundated with Star Wars content and they are still there, if that tells you anything. Could just be that Disney did not complain yet or that they don't care (doubtful).

[Kroc]

Unless I have missed it, I have not seen mentioned that the biggest impact on modding is when the team has to abandon the port and move on to the next thing, like Blood and every other Nightdive release; bugs remain and if the community wants its mods supported on consoles then it has to comply with the bugs of a specific port. This isn't like open-source software, updates have to go through certification with Sony, Microsoft *and* Nintendo and most of these cost money to do so. The gaming industry does *not* maintain games, it re-releases them.

[magicsofa]

Honestly, who cares about cross-game content, this was not even supposed to be happening in 1994 and anyone crying because they can't put ripped content on 'thesda servers has a serious lack of perspective. 

[Man of Doom]

So my two cents here have already to have been litigated by people who summed it up more succinctly and more articulately than I ever could.

That said, I’ll do my best with the point I have to make regarding this entire discourse.

 

 

I am not going to insist that we can just assume that Bethesda/ZeniMax/Microsoft “can absolutely do no wrong”.

And aside from maybe one blue checkmark on Twitter that insisted otherwise, I still have yet to see literally anyone suggest that we start treating corporations as infallible.

 

We should in fact be completely aware and on-guard for any corporate chicanery, especially given everything to have happened within this past year alone (*gestures at the entire video game development industry*).

 

But on the other hand, the amount of conspiracyposting and vitriol here and many other places in the Doom community has gotten legitimately ridiculous. I mean, it’s honestly gotten to the point where otherwise-civil discussions have resulted in blowups so drastic that significant figures here in the community have decided to just call it quits from Doom altogether (or have at least just gotten permabanned from Doomworld).

Cooler heads need to prevail here, especially since we’re all still trying to figure out the specifics of what “official curated modding” will now entail.

The thing is, modding has indeed become an inextricable part of Doom’s identity, and if the corporate powers-that-be were to take that away tomorrow, that would actually be the very real end of the Doom franchise.

It wouldn’t be just the effective shuttering of a very real aspect of the fan community, any interest in future Doom titles after The Dark Ages would effectively be next to nonexistent.

 

I don’t know about you, but I’m more than certain that those corporate powers-that-be would indeed know better than to effectively unload an entire Gatling gun into their foot and accidentally Old Yeller one of their biggest cash cows in the process.

Besides, there hasn’t been any indication that they are even remotely willing to entertain that possibility, given that the full modding suite for Doom Eternal has just been released to the public.

 

And besides, it’s not like ID24 will suddenly be established as “the official Doom modding standard”; if anything, I know there are countless source ports that still see support to this day.

As for official mod curation, I do suspect that it will get reworked into something more restrained (and we’ll always have /idgames to fall back on as well). 

 

 

(spoilered for being somewhat off-topic)

Spoiler

For what it’s worth, it hasn’t been just the KEX re-release and ID24 that’s been causing otherwise solid people to end up trading blows with each other.

 

I still remember how with the official announcement of Doom: The Dark Ages has caused full-blown arguments over “what makes a real Doom game”.

And even before that, there’s been the constant discourse of “Doom 2016 vs. Doom Eternal” which also ties into “what makes a real Doom game”.

 

And no, I’m not considering myself to be “above it all”. If anything, I am also pointing the finger at myself since there have also been times when I ended up lashing out at others over dumb Doom-related stuff.

I fully admit I haven’t been as patient with others as I used to be, and it’s led to my not being able to control my emotions as well as I used to. But I know for sure it’s a process, and I not only need to continue working on that but also giving myself some grace every now and then.

 

 

But yeah, it seems like there’s been a very palpable vibe shift around the time of Doom Eternal’s development/release.

 

But in any case, let it be known for the record that this will be the only time I’ll be actively engaging with this matter at all.

Edited August 15 by Man of Doom : Further clarification

[Tiramisu]

EDIT: I completely misunderstood the post I was replying to, so never mind.

Edited August 15 by Tiramisu

[Agent Strange]

Zero. Bethesda/ZeniMax are one of the most mod friendly publishers out there. Hell, even Microsoft has started to get on the bandwagon with Halo. My only concern is aimed at Microsoft leadership pulling something stupid and forcing iD into the COD mines, but I highly doubt that'll ever happen. For better or worse, DOOM, Fallout, and The Elder Scrolls are the safest Bethesda/ZeniMax properties :/

[JBerg]

I’m not expecting this port to be maintained and updated as often so it’s relevance will fade with time.

[Gifty]

It's also worth noting that chances of Bethesda having a "Nintendo moment" re: the mod scene are vanishingly small for a lot of cultural and branding-related reasons. Broadly speaking (please correct me if this is an over-generalization) the game business culture of Japan is a lot less "hip" to user-created mods, probably corollary to the fact that PC gaming has never really caught on hugely there. Consequently, companies who don't really get the whole "modding thing" react with a lot more hostility towards it, as on a business spreadsheet it probably just reads to them as adjacent to piracy. Corporations will ultimately be corporations wherever you go, but Bethesda is about as opposite to that culture as it is possible to be, as mods are sort of infamously the glue that holds their janky games together and they have a lot of business incentive to encourage that culture as much as possible.

 

Second, Bethesda has never had anything close to the kind of curated image that Nintendo does, either in quality control or family-friendly branding. They may both be overjudicious in their respective ways, but Nintendo's Disney-esque self-styling make them a lot more liable to strike down anything that might tarnish their G-rated aesthetic. Bethesda have no such ambitions--Big Boobie Mod 5000 for Skyrim is something they implicitly tolerate and encourage.

 

My fear for the new updates affecting the mod scene is practically zero, they've waded into some impossibly complex territory and predictably made some dumb mistakes, but I think this is ultimately kind of an everyone-wins scenario. (Would be great if I could get properly credited for Smooth Doom, though, wink wink)

Edited August 15 by Gifty

[DogsRNice]

1 hour ago, Man of Doom said:

I don’t know about you, but I’m more than certain that those corporate powers-that-be would indeed know better than to effectively unload an entire Gatling gun into their foot and accidentally Old Yeller one of their biggest cash cows in the process.

Besides, there hasn’t been any indication that they are even remotely willing to entertain that possibility, given that the full modding suite for Doom Eternal has just been released to the public.

I've found you should never underestimate corporate stupidity 

 

[Cacodemon345]

2 minutes ago, DogsRNice said:

I've found you should never underestimate corporate stupidity 

 

Isn't the whole thing about PDB files that those are not meant to ship in final production builds?

 

I don't see what's there to complain about it; nobody bat an eye about GTA V, Skyrim or Fallout 4 games (or even any reasonably complex AAA games non-Bethesda, in case people think I'm somehow a Bethesda fanboy) not shipping with those despite being much more complex. You mod stuff via unofficial means, you are left completely on your own at your own mercy and shouldn't expect any official support for it.

[apichatpong]

Something like one week after, I still don’t get the thing with this new release.

I do understand the fear of some doomers about Bethesda the ogre, I know it’s always cool to have new standards, source ports etc etc… but I can’t help to feel really uncomfortable with all that.

 

Half-dozens of topics, thousands of posts related to this, I really don’t get it. I don’t get what’s really new here, I don’t get the excitement about it… With all due respect to Xaser, Kaiser and all other doomers involved in Legacy of rust, I see this wad as maybe an extraordinary wad but don’t understand why it’s something that unique when compared to the wads posted everyday in this forum. OK, it’s official release. It’s a norm.

 

I really don’t want to sound snobbish here, it’s more likely me being ignorant, but I do feel uncomfortable. Accessibility to wads via the forum or idgames is easy-peasy, source ports are numerous and mostly cool, fantastic wads are legions. new weapons and monsters also... I must miss something (and I’m sorry for that, and be sure I’m not at all condescendent… I don't have the stomach for this)

 

[Tiramisu]

1 hour ago, apichatpong said:

I really don’t want to sound snobbish here, it’s more likely me being ignorant, but I do feel uncomfortable. Accessibility to wads via the forum or idgames is easy-peasy, source ports are numerous and mostly cool, fantastic wads are legions. new weapons and monsters also... I must miss something (and I’m sorry for that, and be sure I’m not at all condescendent… I don't have the stomach for this)

 

Oh, how convenient, just as I deleted my post for misunderstanding the post I was replying to, here's one that I could've actually made that reply in response to... So anyway just to recap my position, I agree and would go a step further because imo we really don't need any of this - we don't need DOOM on consoles, we don't need a wider audience, we don't need new official wads. There may be benefits from this new release such as introducing more people to DOOM (which mind you, I do not see as an objectively good thing like most people here), but it is far outweighed by the negatives such as the baffling mod uploader system and the splitting of standards between MBF and ID24.

Edited August 15 by Tiramisu : wording edit to not directly implicate apichatpong in my ideas, sorry about that

[Thaumaturge_Tanishq]

If I added Custom Textures, Monsters, Musics and Gameplay Sounds all together, does it even called a Mod? Or Partially Convertible Mod? 

[Liberation]

1 hour ago, Thaumaturge_Tanishq said:

If I added Custom Textures, Monsters, Musics and Gameplay Sounds all together, does it even called a Mod? Or Partially Convertible Mod? 

 

In my opinion those would make a mod.

 

If it included levels with all the new assets then I would class it as a partial conversion if it was still basically doom at heart.

 

(Others might disagree :-) )

 

I hope that answers your question, but I will point out your question is off topic for what is being discussed in this thread.

[Endless]

Just a question and apologies if it has already been answered: Is the Official Add-On system now defunct? With the release of Bethesda upload system, does that mean we will no longer have the curated selection of community WADs like we did with Unity?

[Eurisko]

5 minutes ago, Endless said:

Just a question and apologies if it has already been answered: Is the Official Add-On system now defunct? With the release of Bethesda upload system, does that mean we will no longer have the curated selection of community WADs like we did with Unity?

It’s possible that it may continue as the switch version does not have the mod browser. 

[Dweller Dark]

8 minutes ago, Endless said:

Just a question and apologies if it has already been answered: Is the Official Add-On system now defunct? With the release of Bethesda upload system, does that mean we will no longer have the curated selection of community WADs like we did with Unity?

 

I don't have a concrete answer, but it would be a neat idea for WADs in the mod browser to eventually become part of the Featured Mods category (which I suppose is the continuation of the official addon system). There's already a way to "like" a WAD there, so it's not far off that the most liked WADs could be included in Featured Mods down the line.

[Endless]

29 minutes ago, Dweller Dark said:

 

I don't have a concrete answer, but it would be a neat idea for WADs in the mod browser to eventually become part of the Featured Mods category (which I suppose is the continuation of the official addon system). There's already a way to "like" a WAD there, so it's not far off that the most liked WADs could be included in Featured Mods down the line.

Eh, I don't think so. It could easily be abused by creating bots or fake accounts and spamming the like option. Plus, a lot of the WADs in the browser either don't work correctly or are stolen. Even the official add-ons had to be tinkered before being uploaded so that they worked fully with Unity, I think the same would be needed with the new port.