How Should the Dark Imp Shoot Fireballs?

[Manc]

There's been some discussion lately about one of the new monsters, the dark imp. Some say it should be the same as the regular imp, others say it should heat seek (but just how much?). So, I bring this question out in the open for you to decide.

In your opinion, do you feel there should be any change in the way the dark imp shoots a fireball, and to what degree?

At this point I'd like to provide you with a visual aid:

VISUAL AID

While creating this poll Nanami, who did the sprites for the dark imp, had this to say in favor of the imp having only a little bit of heat seeking (see lower portion of visual aid)...
edited for time and content

Nanami said:

I'm trying to show them that even though they do heat-seek they wouldn't be annoying or bothersome like the revenant's fireballs are. They'd add to the gameplay because instead of just going faster like EVERY OTHER FIREBALL... it would have a unique action.

The heat-seek they use is totally manageable and fun to fight against. Not like revenants where you run away by flying down stairs and hallways and twisting corridors and turn around and get hit by one that followed you the whole way.

There's nothing to gain by having EVERY SINGLE new enemy just have faster fireballs. Boring as hell...

Well, there you have it. That's one opinion of many. You might be wondering where I stand. Well, personally I agree with Nanami. While it may not be necessary to have the little skull sprites, I think that making it shoot that type of fireball is idea. It has just a little kick of heat seek, and it doesn't really become too hard to dodge or deal with.

EDIT: Yeah yeah, I used apostrophes, oops. Any supermod that sees this, if you could change those, I would be ever so grateful. Thanks.


And... GO!

[Bloodshedder]

fp! props to all logged in trolls!

On a completely different note, I do agree that the amount of heat seeking present in Heretic's mummy leaders' projectiles would be appropriate in this situation.

[Doom-Child]

Actually, that's sounds hella fun to play with.

DC

[Nanami]

Slight heat-seek of course. This is my main argument:

I said:

I think the main difference between the revenant fireball and mummy fireball is that a heat-seeker is harder to dodge. That's good. But if it seeks so much that after dodging it spins around and hits you in the back, that's bad. That's why I like the larger radius mummy fireball and think it would be great for the dark imp.

[sargebaldy]

yeah imo a slight heat seak would definitely spice up an otherwise boring new addition

[Carnevil]

KISS: Keep It Simple, Stupid

Good gameplay is created from a complication of simple elements, not a complication of complicated elements. Making a simple element (the fireball) complicated will NOT IMPROVE GAMEPLAY. Sure, it sounds nice giving it a small heat seek, but this will NOT make the game any more fun. It will instead be far more annoying trying to dodge groups of million mile an hour fast fireballs, because they curve at you. If you have to run complicated patterns to get around a bunch of fast, curving fireballs, it will suck.

Doom is simple. That is why it's still around. It will remain that way.

[Nanami]

No one said they had to be fast.

[Carnevil]

Nanami said:

No one said they had to be fast.

I did.

[Nanami]

You realize, though, that the faster you make them the larger the turn radius will be. So the faster they go the less they will heat-seek.

Besides, the seek is an alternative to lightning-fast fire. If the problem is that fast + seek = bad the solution is obvious: don't make them so fast.

[Bloodshedder]

Please realize that Carnevil is the same guy who never said ZDoom 1.23/2.0 would be merged into Skull Tag. This is happening already.

He also said there would be no more bullet/shell weapons. Since then, a minigun has been added.

Which will you trust: what he's saying now, or what's likely to happen based on previous trends?

[Carnevil]

Nanami said:

You realize, though, that the faster you make them the larger the turn radius will be. So the faster they go the less they will heat-seek.

Besides, the seek is an alternative to lightning-fast fire. If the problem is that fast + seek = bad the solution is obvious: don't make them so fast.

You are correct; the solution is obvious: don't make them seek. Faster missiles make for better, more intense gameplay than seeking missiles.

[Manc]

Bloodshedder said:

Please realize that Carnevil is the same guy who never said ZDoom 1.23/2.0 would be merged into Skull Tag. This is happening already.

He also said there would be no more bullet/shell weapons. Since then, a minigun has been added.

Which will you trust: what he's saying now, or what's likely to happen based on previous trends?

Top notch point. Eventually we will break Carn's spirit, forcing him to do our bidding. Muahahahahaha!

Or not...

Carnevil said:

You are correct; the solution is obvious: don't make them seek. Faster missiles make for better, more intense gameplay than seeking missiles.

While this is something that you may think, it may not be an opinion shared by all. It may be wise to at least consider the thought, or even test it out. If it sucks, put it back the other way. As I mentioned before, I think a little heat seek would add a little variance, but it wouldn't be ridiculous.

[Bloodshedder]

Your opinion of "better" gameplay is just that, an opinion. Obviously, the users of Skull Tag do not believe that simply making the fireball faster will create better gameplay. Would you rather please just yourself or your users?

[Carnevil]

Think what you want, I'm not changing it.

[Bloodshedder]

Wheeeeeeeeeeee! Hooray for close-mindedness!

[Nanami]

The new fireball actually looks like this:

[Carnevil]

Bloodshedder said:

Wheeeeeeeeeeee! Hooray for close-mindedness!

You're about a post a way from sending me into an angry rant.

[Bloodshedder]

I'd like to know your other reasoning behind this decision. Control issues, perhaps?

Oh and you fail it at poll editing.

[Manc]

Carnevil said:

Think what you want, I'm not changing it.

The idea of "better gameplay" is in the eye of the player. Right now, the players of your port (not to mention mod makers) are saying that perhaps another option would provide "better gameplay".

I'd just like to you know what your reasons are behind not wanting to even playtest the idea. You have the power to switch it back if it doesn't work out.

[Nanami]

Carnevil said:

. . . complicated will NOT IMPROVE GAMEPLAY. Sure, it sounds . . .

Actually, I still fail to see how making all the monsters exactly the same but faster WILL add something to the gameplay, as opposed to adding unique elements.

[sargebaldy]

Nanami said:

Actually, I still fail to see how making all the monsters exactly the same but faster WILL add something to the gameplay, as opposed to adding unique elements.

obviously if you're using a new source port to make monsters, you shouldn't code them in. carn's staying old school and simple. adding ubercomplex things in like a very slight heat seek could confuse some doomers and give them headaches.

[Carnevil]

Bah, let's give the people a decent screenshot.

http://skulltag.kicks-ass.net/DOOM0004.png

[Nanami]

Even if there was 10,000 of them, the seek is slight (see the picture of the radius). There's not enough room in there for them to fully turn around and come back at you like a revenant fireball would. You need only to dodge a little more to the left or right.

And besides, if you keep them at the speed they're at (20), you can double or even triple that turn radius from the photo Manc posted.

[Manc]

Here's that image again:

http://www.mancubus.net/images/revmum.png

and OMG 100th post! PARTY IN MY PANTZ.

[Carnevil]

If you want it so bad, do a dehacked patch when 95b is released.

[Nanami]

When I informed you that the monsters and weapons in SkullTag can't be effected with DeHacked and I suggested you could work on it, you decided you didn't want to add the support for it because it would take too long.

[Carnevil]

Nanami said:

When I informed you that the monsters and weapons in SkullTag can't be effected with DeHacked and I suggested you could work on it, you decided you didn't want to add the support for it because it would take too long.

I don't know how to make the new weapons, monsters, items etc. work with dehacked. If you want to ask Randy to tell me how, I would be more than happy to make dehacked support the new stuff. Then you can experiment with it until you're blue in the face.

Oh yes, and thanks for being so grateful for me working on Skulltag in the first place. I mean, I already spend hours a day on this with my own free time, and sometimes put in addional hours accomadating all your demands. It's nice that you don't whine about me not wanting to waste ADDITIONAL time of mine working on your "whim of the minute" experiments, which while they may not even improve gameplay, they're at least "interesting".

To sum up, I am not your bitch.

[Manc]

Carnevil said:

I don't know how to make the new weapons, monsters, items etc. work with dehacked. If you want to ask Randy to tell me how, I would be more than happy to make dehacked support the new stuff. Then you can experiment with it until you're blue in the face.

The reason she came back with that I think is because you suggested a dehacked patch, which obviously won't work anyway if the new stuff isn't dehackable. I don't think, for ME anyway, that being able to dehack stuff will impact what I do with ST in the first place. However, for those that would like to make mods (i.e. ZooM), they may need that flexibility to really make their mods shine. Some people may, for example, want to have a mod where you can use more than 1 rune. While that would be a small part of the mod itself, it may lead to more interesting gameplay experiences. While Skull Tag is still indeed cool, it's hard to want to use it as a primary port if you just provide a black box port with very little modification options. The most you'll ever get is some new CTF and skulltag levels.

Oh yes, and thanks for being so grateful for me working on Skulltag in the first place. I mean, I already spend hours a day on this with my own free time, and sometimes put in addional hours accomadating all your demands. It's nice that you don't whine about me not wanting to waste ADDITIONAL time of mine working on your "whim of the minute" experiments, which while they may not even improve gameplay, they're at least "interesting".

To sum up, I am not your bitch.

First off, noone is NOT grateful that you work on skulltag so much. I don't see anywhere in this thread where that is mentioned. It is your choice to spend hours a day working on it, and I don't see anyone demanding anything. It's not fair to play the martyr card. No one is forcing you to make skull tag, and to settle all doubts, we ARE grateful that someone is making a decent multiplayer port, because, well, that really hasn't been done yet. I do not use ZDaemon, csDoom, or Legacy (except for coop, but bleh) for dm. I use Skull Tag, and I know many others are the same way. 2nd, People are offering suggestions, suggestions that may work. Suggestions that are at least worth trying. It's also not fair to us to say that we are DEMANDING you put this in. Your only reason for not doing it is that it "doesn't add to gameplay". Well, once again that's your opinion, and not the opinion of the masses, who will be playing your game. You must ask yourself, are you making this for just you, or for others? Personally, I'll probably use Skull Tag as my main port for just about anything DM related. If/when there's GL, I'll proabably use it as my main port overall. But for others who might mod for it, it would put a bit of a sour taste in their mouth if you weren't open to possibilities for SP gameplay modification. This is not my expertise, so I'll stop here.

I'm not sure what you're referring to by "whim of the minute" experiments, which while they may not even improve gameplay, they're at least "interesting" part. I guess that's probably from other conversations I assume. I guess I get lucky when I suggest something like "spectator mode" and it gets put in. Of course, my suggestions usually reside on the DM side, as that is my main want for ST... a great multiplayer experience.


In short, I just feel that perhaps some, maybe not ALL, suggestions are worth at least looking at, unless there are other reasons besides "it won't add to gameplay". Also, we like skull tag. If we didn't, we wouldn't be suggesting such things. We'd just not even bother.

:D

[sargebaldy]

Carnevil said:

Oh yes, and thanks for being so grateful for me working on Skulltag in the first place.

and thank you back for being grateful back to everyone else involved in the project, including nanami who made the damn dark imp sprites for you.

Carnevil said:

accomadating all your demands

first off, i'm assuming you mean 'accomodating' as 'accomadating' isn't an english word.
you accomodate all of nanami's demands? then why do I hear '<Nanami> How about.. || <Carnevil> No.' 50 times a day in #skulltag ?

Carnevil said:

which while they may not even improve gameplay, they're at least "interesting".

explain to me how a mild trace may not be an improvement to gameplay whereas OMG FASTER FIREBALLS is an uber improvement?

[Nanami]

Heh. Anyway, the current speed for a dark imp shot is 20 (the speed of a rocket). If it was set to a normal fireball speed (10) the radius would be half that, like the one in the picture in the first post (at bottom) which is still a pretty large radius. It could even be set at 15 to reach a good speed with a good size radius, thereby preventing fireballs from turning around and hitting you after you dodge them.

The point is to make them a bit harder to dodge than normal fireballs, but not so far as a revenant fireball, which you have to dodge more than once. These you would dodge only once (or twice maybe in a very large room) but it would require more skill than dodging a normal straight fireball.