interactivity

[dr_qui]

Anyone got any thoughts about the level of interactivity doom 3 will have ? For example :liquid pools, can we swim through them ?, and what if we were above a demon, could we push a box down on him and squash him ? I know all about the rag doll physics but i'm just curious as to how far it will be taken.

[Fredrik]

example :liquid pools, can we swim through them ?

Haven't heard of liquid pools, but I'll be really surprised if the Doom 3 engine, which is supposed to do decently as a general purpose gaming engine as id intend to license it to other companies, doesn't have support for swimmable liquids.

and what if we were above a demon, could we push a box down on him and squash him ?

Possibly. Monsters could get crushed already in Doom ;) I hope to see things like that, but I'm not too sure that Doom 3 will be as physics-oriented as HL2, considering that Carmack appears to be somewhat obstinate to physics (strange for a rocket scientist, eh?).

[Alboroto]

I doubt that there will be water... but physics and gore do make a nice combination.

[Fredrik]

Alboroto said:

I doubt that there will be water...

Heh, why? Even Quake had swimmable water. It's not the most complicated engine feature out there. Leaving it out would, as I said, limit the engine's versatility for other developers (including people making mods).

[Tetzlaff]

Yeah, why no water in Doom3? It wouldn´t be out of place at all in the UAC base, for example there could be water cooling bassins for a reactor, or a water reservoir for the base etc.

The water in the Halflife2 videos looks cool... anyone knows if that shader effect (or what it technically is) is possible in the Doom3 engine as well?

[dsm]

Alboroto said:

I doubt that there will be water... but physics and gore do make a nice combination.

There was water surfaces in the old Doom games, so why not? Personally, I'm not all that interested in water. We've seen water before and I don't see any new gameplay potential in that - if they try to make the water anymore realistic, there's a risk that water will become more of a nuisance than fun - I certainly don't want that.

As for interactivity, that's a hard one I think. I'm usually very hard to please in terms of interactivity, since my idea of interactivity is that it's more often than not just a temporary cool factor that grows old really quickly.

On the other hand, if it's implemented well, using the environment as alternate methods of killing your enemies could end up being really cool. I'm just sceptical towards things like pushing/shooting things so that they fall down and crush your enemies, because I've seen those things before and they're just not really satisfying enough imo. I've seen useless interaction like picking up furniture and using them as weapons (you never really use this because the guns are so much better at killing the enemy, not to mention more fun).

Of course, what a guy like me is looking forward to the most, is the classic shooting spree (I'm hoping that shooting monsters is really well-polished in Doom 3 so that it feels great and satisfying) - shooting demons owns any other means of killing the enemy imo, but since that's what every shooter has in it (though I hope the feel in Doom 3 will be far better than anything else - that means HL2 first and foremost), Doom 3 will also need some other elements - other means of killing the enemy. Screw stuff like a gun that can move furniture (this doesn't sound like it's really my type of fun), I want stuff that you really want to exploit, without leaving your guns unused for too long.

What I do like to see is the possibility to turn over barrels with flammable material, shoot the pool that is being formed and watch it erupt in flame (when you just shoot the barrel without tipping it over, it'll just be your standard explosive Doom barrel) - when incorporated right, it'll allow the player to set traps for demons (some of them should be more or less immune to the "flame trap", while exploding the barrel will be harmful to anyone).

Furthermore, I'd like to see that, when you go into manipulation mode to do something with a computer console, you'll be able to "program" the machine in question differently so that it affects gameplay - sometimes with favorable, sometimes with not-so favorable outcomes.

Maybe the ability to make bridges collapse with demons on them to affect the gameplay would be fun too: either it kills the demons, or it just relocates them and buys you some more time, while forcing you to take an alternate route, since the bridge is useless now.

[Alboroto]

Now that I think it better, a scene like the one in Aliens Resurrection with the aliens in the water and some cool light effects...

But:

1. How would you implement water in the mars station for a scene like this?
2. What kind of monsters would live underwater?
3. What would the player use to survive underwater?

Ok, in this 3 questions I go for realistic enviroment stuff. A water scene can be really cool but it needs a reason to be there.

A hellspawn monster a being of hate and pain, let's forget the fire for a while and think of a cool water demon... no, make in badder and uglier.

for the third question, I was thinking about the enviroment suit... something like dino crisis 2, but not so slow.

-------------------------------------------

[The_Aeromaster]

dsm said:

stuff

I have nothing to add to that.

[dsm]

Alboroto said:

1. How would you implement water in the mars station for a scene like this?
2. What kind of monsters would live underwater?
3. What would the player use to survive underwater?

1. I haven't seen Alien Resurrection (what was in that scene?), but for water situations in general, I believe cooling facilities have been mentioned already. Water is needed to satisfy the basic needs of the humans stationed there. Humans cannot survive without water - that's a well-known fact. They'll need water in food, drinks and in the bathrooms - this water's gotta come from somewhere, so it's just a matter of using one's imagination.

2. I don't think it'll be necessary to have water specific demons - some of the classic demons might as well be able swimmers, or at least capable of surviving under the water. But if there has to be underwater creatures, I'm sure the creative minds at iD can come up with something truly nightmarish for underwater creations. Remember: Evil comes in many shapes.

3. Hehehe, this is something I've thought about years before I even saw this website. Since the Doomguy already wears a helmet with a breather, all he'll need is some sort of oxygen tanks - maybe even a whole environment suit with oxygen tanks which he can link to his helmet's breather (such a suit might also be useful for when he has to go outside the base, so it could serve a dual purpose)

[gatewatcher]

The Doom engine should be able to do everything Source can do, right? If so, then water and physics (i.e. pushing boxes) are in. (man, when did JC's engines have to live up to anyone else's...)

[Wobbo]

actually John CArmack said rather speificaly that there would be NO WATER in Doom3, however he did mention a bunch of really cool water shaders.

Listen to tthe QuakeCon 2002 speech

[toxicfluff]

To be honest, I doubt D3 is going to have hardly any interactivity, especially compared to HL2... it just doesn't seem to be what id goes for.

Doesn't really put me off, but I suppose it will do for some people.

[Tetzlaff]

Wobbo said:

actually John CArmack said rather speificaly that there would be NO WATER in Doom3, however he did mention a bunch of really cool water shaders.

Listen to tthe QuakeCon 2002 speech

It´s just a summary, but I can´t find any mention of it here:
http://www.gamespy.com/articles/august02/quakecon2002/carmack/index.shtml

Do you have the complete speech available soemwhere?

[Tetzlaff]

ToXiCFLUFF said:

To be honest, I doubt D3 is going to have hardly any interactivity, especially compared to HL2... it just doesn't seem to be what id goes for.

I disagree. Doom3 from the start was produced with a new physics engine that does basicly the same things the HL2 physics engine can do: letting the player manipulate various world items (see demo movies), including characters (e.g. standing on a Zombie so that he don´t can come up again). And id´s level designers have always been quite creative to use the possibilites of the engine in the actual level design. Remember for example all the moving walls, structures and secret doors in Doom or all the traps and stuff in Q1. So I´m quite sure we will have similar things in Doom3 like in HL2, letting structures collapse to crush monsters for example. We probably won´t be driving cars or bikes arround, but I´m fine with that because it wouldn´t fit the Doom athmosphere anyway.

Second point: there´s the new flash-like in-game interface in Doom3. You approach a computer terminal, a keypad or some other data medias in the game, your crosshair turns into a cursor and you can use those interfaces which can be way more complex then your basical key puzzle. This *is* interactivity, or what would you say? And obviously id wants to include a certain degree of interactivity into Doom3, I don´t think they want to design it soley arround "run and gun" all the time.

[toxicfluff]

It isn't really much interactivity though, not in any great degree. The world isn't deformable and destructible like in HL2, and no doubt HL2 will be like the original, with lots of things you can fuck around with.

The computer terminals are nice, don't get me wrong - I remember playing tic-tac-toe on one in a map I downloaded a while back - but I don't think the game as a whole is going to have much interactivity. Physics and usable computer terminals will most likely only make up a small portion of the world. I don't mind this - I think that being able to interact (properly, not just moving or shooting something around) with loads of objects is kind of gimmicky anyway - but I doubt that it will be anywhere close to H-L2 or even Duke3d in this respect.

[dsm]

ToXiCFLUFF said:

It isn't really much interactivity though, not in any great degree. The world isn't deformable and destructible like in HL2, and no doubt HL2 will be like the original, with lots of things you can fuck around with.

The computer terminals are nice, don't get me wrong - I remember playing tic-tac-toe on one in a map I downloaded a while back - but I don't think the game as a whole is going to have much interactivity. Physics and usable computer terminals will most likely only make up a small portion of the world. I don't mind this - I think that being able to interact (properly, not just moving or shooting something around) with loads of objects is kind of gimmicky anyway - but I doubt that it will be anywhere close to H-L2 or even Duke3d in this respect.

Fact is, iD hasn't shown off much interactivity yet, but that doesn't mean that Doom 3 won't have it.
Have any of you considered that iD might just be smart enough to not reveal any of Doom 3's truly engrossing gameplay features before releasing the game? So far, they've released screenshots showing off cool environments and monsters, the Alpha and E3 demo have shown us some of the basic physics in action as well as some limited interactivity and the trailer has shown us...what? A lot of scripted events perhaps?
At any rate, we can be sure that iD haven't shown us everything there is to Doom 3 yet (it'd be foolhardy if they had) and we can't be sure that what they have shown us is fully representative of Doom 3's final gameplay.

It's not impossible that they've added a lot more interactivity than that wee bit in the Alpha. True, you might not have all that destructible terrain like in HL2, but who needs that anyway? A good FPS is first and foremost about the killing itself. I don't want to destroy the terrain, I want to destroy the enemies - I admit that using the terrain to kill the enemy can be cool and that will definitely be HL2's forté, but I still believe, no I hope, that Doom 3 will have something in store for us that HL2 won't have, which can be classed as fun interactivity and not something that looks cool at first and then it grows old really quickly.

[Fredrik]

dsm said:

I haven't seen Alien Resurrection (what was in that scene?)

The only way at a point is a swim through a water-filled area. Turns out that there are aliens in the water, though, and when they finally reach the other side, they find the exit covered with a layer of fierce alien goo. And that's when they've been in the water so long that they're all about to suffocate. Arguably the best part of the movie.

You should go see the movie, if not for any other reason then because of the cool tech environments.

[Kinsie]

On the subject of interactivity: NUKAGE BARRELS. I want to blow away enemies by shooting barrels near my enemy.

[dsm]

Trasher][ said:
On the subject of interactivity: NUKAGE BARRELS. I want to blow away enemies by shooting barrels near my enemy.

I think it's pretty certain to be in the game. I mean, it's iD after all.

[Fredrik]

If only they could improve the fire and explosion graphics... :|

[Amaster]

I dont really care about water areas. If they're there, meh. If not, meh.

I would like some good world interaction though. Not for the player, but for the enemies. I think it would be really cool if the hell knight threw other objects at you, including zombies. Or having zombies hurling nearby objects at you, but not in the scripted sense.

[uniQ]

some slime and water would be ok...imagine a slightly flooded bathroom because of broken waterpipes or some leaking/steaming pipes.
imho being able to swin around in fluids is not a must but it would add some nice aspects.

slime is a must. it was in doom so it should be in the retelling.

other interactivity? computers, doom marine's pda, moveable&destroyable crates, boxes and barrels, openable bars of the vent system, keys, switches, shootable extinguishers or other explosives, breakable glass, changeable/shootable lights, etc.
a lot of those things are already in the game.

I don't care for a deformable terrain...this makes not so much sense in the uac base.
Also I see no need to have such silly and pointless multiple choice dialogues with npcs - particularly if they don't change the game flow.

[Fredrik]

Don't forget machinery. What we've seen so far is mostly decorative (except for the train, perhaps), but some more creative uses of it might and should pop up.

[uniQ]

Fredrik said:

Don't forget machinery. What we've seen so far is mostly decorative (except for the train, perhaps), but some more creative uses of it might and should pop up.

right...thought this falls under "switches" :)

to go on: elevators, portals (hmmm...really?), secret walls (yep!), moving vehicles (un-steerable trains, conveyer bands, etc), crushing ceilings, half dead scientists giving you hints at their last breath, red blue yellow cards :), strange machinery (the baby bee construction machine!), shootable/moveable inventar (computers, screens, chairs, gore, plates, etc)...there are lots of other things I could think of but I have to got to the toilett now :) .... too late.

[Tetzlaff]

Fredrik said:

Don't forget machinery. What we've seen so far is mostly decorative (except for the train, perhaps), but some more creative uses of it might and should pop up.

In the E3 2002 shaky cam movie the player is using a control panel to opperate an impressive looking machine which is handling some kind of casing, fuel rods maybe or something like that.

[dsm]

Fredrik said:

If only they could improve the fire and explosion graphics... :|

I don't really think the fire in the lost soul screenshot looks so bad - take into consideration that fire usually looks better when it's animated. Haven't seen the explosions yet so I can't comment on those.

some slime and water would be ok...imagine a slightly flooded bathroom because of broken waterpipes or some leaking/steaming pipes.
imho being able to swin around in fluids is not a must but it would add some nice aspects.

slime is a must. it was in doom so it should be in the retelling.

Slime is most definitely a must - I hope slime can be used in many cases - not just as liquids already there in pools that poses a danger. Imagine a scenario where you shoot some container (accidentally or because you're naive enough to believe that it won't hurt) and as a result, slime seeps out of the holes and floods your path, forcing you to take an alternate route, unless you want to feel the pain.

strange machinery (the baby bee construction machine!)

Baby bee construction machine = Doom 3 mancubus (perhaps?) ;-P

to go on: elevators, portals (hmmm...really?), secret walls (yep!), moving vehicles (un-steerable trains, conveyer bands, etc), crushing ceilings, half dead scientists giving you hints at their last breath, red blue yellow cards :), strange machinery (the baby bee construction machine!), shootable/moveable inventar (computers, screens, chairs, gore, plates, etc)...there are lots of other things

A few of these things are already there in classic Doom (elevators, secrets, crushing ceilings and the cards).

I think that the type of interactivity I'd like to see the most, is things that will affect the level, forcing you to take decisions on how to progress (see my slime flood idea above) - I don't wanna see crap like the player picking up objects that he can use as weapons and I'm not all that interested in the ability to shoot/push objects to affect other objects in such a way that they fall down and crush the enemy.
I want Doom to remain simple first and foremost (which leaves out the ability to pick up objects and using them as weapons), yet complex in terms of decisions you can take (that's how the old Doom was).

It'd be nice to see the feature to do one thing in level A that affects level B - at a later time, you can act differently so that level B is affected in a different way.
The most important things for Doom 3 will be fun and replayability.

[The_Aeromaster]

I have just one more thing to say:
I'd rather D3 have good gameplay than have them waste all their time programming all the interactivity that these other games have, and suck as bad as these games do... like when the consoles started making better graphics, but wasted so much on them that the games weren't any fun. We've already seen a certain degree of interactivity, and what we've seen already is fine by me. They should concentrate on the atmosphere, not making sure i can knock coffee cups on the floor.

[dsm]

The_Aeromaster said:

I have just one more thing to say:
I'd rather D3 have good gameplay than have them waste all their time programming all the interactivity that these other games have, and suck as bad as these games do... like when the consoles started making better graphics, but wasted so much on them that the games weren't any fun. We've already seen a certain degree of interactivity, and what we've seen already is fine by me. They should concentrate on the atmosphere, not making sure i can knock coffee cups on the floor.

Good points, but I don't think the atmosphere alone will be enough to make Doom 3 truly great.
In order to be a worthy recreation, Doom 3 will need to appeal to all those interactivity people out there as well as the horror game fans - not to mention action game fans (like me). That's what the original Doom did.

Doom 3 should of course be a largely horror-driven game, but it should have some levels of interaction - not like the stuff you mention, but something that expands on what we've already seen - machines that can be affected in interesting ways, physics that provide for some interesting gameplay situations, etc..

It should also have lots of stuff to kill - I know it can't display much more than five enemies on-screen, but that doesn't mean that the maps won't be crammed with enemies: if they make a lot of confined areas and put certain scripted restrictions on the mobility of the enemies to prevent them from moving into an area with too many other enemies, they could put like five enemies in every second little room and that would mean a lot of action.

As an action game fan, I of course hope iD would do their best to cram as many monsters into those maps as humanly possible - if Doom 3 becomes too Half Life'ish in terms of action, then I'm afraid that Doom 3 will appeal a lot less to me than it does now. So far, I don't have too many reasons to doubt that Doom 3 will be more action-packed than HL - I've seen the shaky cam video.

[toxicfluff]

Well, I don't think many interactivity and/or realism nuts are gonna buy Doom3 with H-L2 around, but I'm pretty sure which game I'm gonna prefer.

[uniQ]

I forgot one "interactivity" feature: I really like breakable mirrors...dunno why but I love shooting them.

Another nice feature would be that there's pouring/spraying some "material" out of the different materials if you shoot at them, e.g. concrete dust if you shoot a concrete wall (q.v. max pain's effects), spraying water if you hit the water, steaming pipes that are shot, pouring slime from shot barrels (dsm's good idea).

In the end I hope id builds in some kind of "material" engine in aspects of sound (ricochet, footsteps, ambient, etc) and behavior when shot or moved (is it breakable, what "pours" out, is it changing its shape when it's organic, etc).
If a barrel is an program object it should be "easy" (for JC) to add the physics and material behavior to that object (simple hah?).
Same could go with other "objects": liquids, walls, lamps, lights, monsters, computers, coffee cups :) (aeromaster!), cola cans, crates, npc-s, trains, corpses, ahhhh...whatever!

some will say "that's a hl2 feature" but hey it would rock in d3 also.

throwable objects...hmmmm....would be a nice feature but it shouldn't be necessary to finish the game. maybe I would try it out to pick on mr baron ;) but in the end I would do it only for fun and not to kill an enemy...
id better builds up a good rocket launcher instead of concentrating on throwables.