Seeing distant battles

[dsm]

As for your idea Jeremy, I would rather save that for Quake IV - Quake IV is goin' for the war atmosphere, whereas Doom 3 has the more quiet, scary, haunted moonbase feel to it.
Seeing distant battles would ruin that atmosphere.

Same thing with what disorder said about a Saving Pvt. Ryan-esque scene: Save that for Quake IV.

They're both nice ideas, but not really Doomish.

As for NPCs in general, I think I've said up to several times before that I think they're a great addition to the Doom universe, simply because they allow for cool scenes where you arrive in a room in time to see someone getting goppled up by a demon, or when you do encounter survivors, they'll be absolutely terrified and paranoid, which again will tell the player that "uh-oh, I'm in a really horrifying environment here, I dunno if I have the guts to continue, because this guy here is so frightened that he dares not move!"
I've got mixed feelings about Sarge: He could turn out a great addition, simply because it'd enhance the mission feel to have your orders told by someone, plus if he's scared too, then YOU have a reason to be wetting your pants. But if they make him too cheesy or apply the wrong sort of "Go and kick ass for the Lord Marine!" personality, it'd ruin everything.
No, Sarge should be on the brink of panic, fighting to retain the calmness that is demanded of any superior when ordering his men about - sometimes even he should be at a loss of ideas on what to do next, so that you have to gradually figure things out yourself.

[Captain Red]

How about they just make NPC contact optional? The first time you play it, you can get advice from them, but they can’t “stand in your way”, you can run right by them, and they’ll just shrug you off. It would be nice if there where medics around to heal you in the early parts of the game, but NPC contact should be rare (and it should lessen as the game goes on).

Any fighting between marines and beasties should happen behind bullet proof glass or far away or something in such a way that you cannot directly interact with it. Same with any scripted sequence while we’re at it. To be used in moderation.

[dsm]

Ct_red_pants said:

How about they just make NPC contact optional? The first time you play it, you can get advice from them, but they can’t “stand in your way”, you can run right by them, and they’ll just shrug you off. It would be nice if there where medics around to heal you in the early parts of the game, but NPC contact should be rare (and it should lessen as the game goes on).

I think iD IS heading the direction of making NPC contact "optional" to a certain degree (though I know of at least one situtation where it'd be forced: The scientist leading you to the gate). One thing I know for certain is that NPC interaction is gonna be an extreme rarity in the game because it has been stated by iD employees (I remember them saying that they're focusing on the 'alone' feel or something along those lines, so the few NPCs that would actually be in the game wouldn't be getting in your way).
Kinda like RtCW - and actual NPC interaction in that game IS extremely rare. I remember the part where you help some resistance members securing a defecting German scientist - you don't need to 'interact' with them (I usually don't because I'm hurrying off to aid the damn tank) or stay around while they deliver their "thank-you" speech.
I found the NPCs in RtCW to be nothing short of perfect (don't help you gun down the enemies so they enemies are all yours to play with, don't get in your way, are rare) so if iD does it in a similar fashion in Doom 3, I'm sure it'll rock.

It is also a possibility that NPCs will be largely limited to the beginning of the game where you walk about in a non-hostile environment.

Any fighting between marines and beasties should happen behind bullet proof glass or far away or something in such a way that you cannot directly interact with it. Same with any scripted sequence while we’re at it. To be used in moderation.

Hmm.
I still have doubts about it. I have a very strong feeling that it'd be much, much better to save this kind of thing for Quake IV altogether. Though perhaps seeing another lone marine's unpleasant demise at the hands of a particularly nightmarish demon would fit Doom 3's atmosphere - you'll see him shoot blindly at it in panic before he's done for.
Any thing else would be too much of a war-esque atmosphere for it to fit.

[Captain Red]

[In response to the second part of the statement]

It doesn’t have to be huge battles or anything, it could just be one or two marines or scientists with a few demons, It could be like the beginning of system shock 2, as you walk through a hallway, you can see through a unbreakable window. One of the crewmembers is running and screaming while being chased by a hybrid. heck, you don't even need to see them to get the smeg sceared out of you. In alien resurrection, (on PSX) you can sometimes hear (but never see) sudden burst of frantic fire and screaming. The second one especially gave me a sense of truly being alone (despite the fact that I wasn't). I could imagine both examples working very well in doom 3 (as long as they don't happen all the time).

[Tyockell]

Ct_red_pants said:

[In response to the second part of the statement]

It doesn’t have to be huge battles or anything, it could just be one or two marines or scientists with a few demons, It could be like the beginning of system shock 2, as you walk through a hallway, you can see through a unbreakable window. One of the crewmembers is running and screaming while being chased by a hybrid. heck, you don't even need to see them to get the smeg sceared out of you. In alien resurrection, (on PSX) you can sometimes hear (but never see) sudden burst of frantic fire and screaming. The second one especially gave me a sense of truly being alone (despite the fact that I wasn't). I could imagine both examples working very well in doom 3 (as long as they don't happen all the time).

I'd find just sounds of firefights and people being eatin by demons more creepy then seeing it because it alows you imagination to run off with it and see the type of scenario that would scare you the most, thats my thought anyway.

[The_Aeromaster]

Tyockell said:

I'd find just sounds of firefights and people being eatin by demons more creepy then seeing it because it alows you imagination to run off with it and see the type of scenario that would scare you the most, thats my thought anyway.

Did someone say Doom 64?

[Yo-Han]

In a gamespy review last year one of the developpers mentioned sarge for Doom3..commanding doomguy via radio or something...giving some objectives..if they do it like that,sarge should indeed be never very sure of his case ,you'll have to feel that he's very afraid and insecure about the whole damn (doomed) situation ... IF he's there ..

If you encounter some NPC's , it should be like in the first 3 levels..the idea that you hear it mostly trough terrifying sounds is very good... so it gives you the idea that the last survivers are gettin wiped out ... doomguy is a kind of a rambo guy..just that one guy with more nerve and balls then lots of marines..so it can make sense that there were maybe a few marines still left,but they happened to be in shock or in the wrong place at the wrong time and now there's just only doomguy(one guy between hell and earth) that's the only hope to clear up that mess ... i'm sure that the story will hold together because ID rented pro hollywood story tellers...

[toxicfluff]

Yo-Han said:

just that one guy with more nerve and balls then lots of marines..

I seem to be one of very few people who don't take to this idea very well...

I hope Doom3 isn't too cinematic though. Makes me think of MOHAA, which although great first time through, had no replayability whatsoever.

[Yo-Han]

Can't blame you there..it maybe a game with movie like graphics ,but it still remains a game...

I'm sharing like the same opinion..there can be a story that goes deeper about hell and the hellgate etc..but doomguy is just doomguy and shoots the basterds :-))

Though i'd never expect a 2001 or Solaris story in a game...makes HL story look like a baby comic ...

[geekmarine]

Anyone ever play AvP2? I liked it. There were NPCs, but they really didn't do anything. I remember there was one point where you could hear another team being slaughtered over the comm. That was really creepy, I thought. Reminds me of the original Doom story, where you are outside of the base, but can hear the fierce battle inside over the radio. Stuff like that can be really creepy without even resorting to visuals. Heh, actually AvP2's most disturbing scene, in my opinion, actually was when you play as the chestburster, and hatch from your host. Really, that was just gross. Ugh, I mean, to start a level in some random guy's chest, and having to eat your way out, that's just gross.

[toxicfluff]

geekmarine said:Heh, actually AvP2's most disturbing scene, in my opinion, actually was when you play as the chestburster, and hatch from your host.[/B]

That was a completely unnecessary touch which I really appreciated :D I preferred AVP1 overall though.

[Ultraviolet]

geekmarine said:

Anyone ever play AvP2? I liked it. There were NPCs, but they really didn't do anything. I remember there was one point where you could hear another team being slaughtered over the comm. That was really creepy, I thought.

I'm not sure about this, but I think Opposing Force came out first. It had the same thing, and it was even radio-garbled and all that. Later you come across the slaughtered team of marines, whereas just before that you hear them calling out for backup, giving a current casualty report, talking about what you encounter later in the level...

Half Life had enough similarly creepy NPC-noninteraction. I especially liked in the beginning how the elevator crashes if you push the button... I was trying so hard to figure out how to avoid that (without cheating), but never could. Heh. They should make it kinda like Lemmings I say, and make it so that no NPC is guaranteed to die. It could be like a little mini-game, trying to be everywhere at the same time saving everyone from getting killed. And then, once you get them all in a safe location with all the demons dead, you could just toss a grenade in and... >:-D

[toxicfluff]

Even further back, there was the bit in the first Unreal, where you open a door, it jams a quarter of the way up. You hear gunshots, see the muzzle flashes under the door and then you hear ripping sounds, and screams. Scared me. In fact, the level before last in Unreal was the scariest experience I have ever had in a game.

[Ultraviolet]

ToXiCFLUFF said:

Even further back, there was the bit in the first Unreal, where you open a door, it jams a quarter of the way up. You hear gunshots, see the muzzle flashes under the door and then you hear ripping sounds, and screams. Scared me. In fact, the level before last in Unreal was the scariest experience I have ever had in a game.

Heh, I remember that now. I was crouching in-game, and I even tried sitting lower in my chair and craning my neck to see what was going on. I remember running for that dispersion pistol and immediately trying to chase that Skaarj down. I figured if it was anything like Doom I could circle-strafe him a bit and come out on top. Later on I even ghost-ed through the door with the rifle and tried killing him before he ran off. Bleh, seeing the scripted stuff work out ruined the effect for me, and I didn't even get to kill the bastard.

[Yossarian]

Yeah the cameras and the feeling of being alone (a la Aliens vs Predator) are a must.

Might also be cool to see some other marines join you and you go through a level or two as a squad. With Carmack's genius, I bet they could figure out some way to incorporate it.

Also, if anyones played Unreal II, even simple scripted events such as an Imp running across a hallway would make for a great scare tactic.

[toxicfluff]

Edited for asininity(?)

[Yo-Han]

I think you will see enough imps running trough the halway..but probably not scripted..just trying to get YOU :-) !

Edit: someone talks about unreal...if i'm going to encounter a demon the size if the ' unreal titan' in Doom3 i'll probably wet my pants

[Flametrooper]

DooM had no real monster hordes.

Big monster hordes appear in DooM2, because...

1) People already upgraded their hardware
2) DooM1 monsters SUCKED. I don't mean their appearance, they're simply cute and produce excellent sounds.

DooM1 monsters are very easy to fight against ! Let's analyze:

Zombieman - uhhh...
Sergeant - hmm, he can do some nasty damage but still 2 bullets are enough to slay it.
Imp - very low projectile speed, moderately skilled DooM player can dodge it without any effort. Imp is potentially dangerous only in tight corridors.
Lost Soul - very clumsy and still easy to dodge. Has big problems with something as fundamental as attacking - often gets stuck.
Demon - looks and sounds scary, but
1)noticably slower than WALKING marine
2) can't attack mobile targets, even if they move at 10 cm per second.
Spectre is fine.
Cacodemon - again, slow projectile.
Baron Of Hell - Stronger imp, period. His only ability worth mentioning is ammo consuming.
Spider Mastermind - if you have enough place to run - laughable, huge immobile and harmless target for rockets and plasma. When it comes to short range and dodging (obstacles) Mastermind is actually much easier than Cyberdemon. On top of that spider Vs spider fight is the most silly doom experience.
...and Cyberdemon, it can be challenging depending on situation. Just as Mastermind, either devastating or totally harmless.
----------

ID must have realized how puny these monsters are. Let's take a look at new monsters, and new methods of utilizing monsters in DooM 2

Hell Knight - less tough than Baron, but deals same damage I think. This means much better health to damage ratio. Instead of using Baronds, we ocassionaly see multiple Knights. 2 Barons need 10 supershotgun hits (or direct rockets), while 3 knights need 9, but can deal 50% more damage, occupy more space so it's harder to escape when surrounded.

Heavy Weapons Dude - tougher, but more importantly - devastating at short to medium range and doesn't waste time on writing pointless topics. Can't be dodged and high damage output !

Pain Elemental - my least favourite monster. I just think it's uncool. It can spam everything with lost souls, this means I have to target it first. Anyway, very dangerous when ignored. Pain Elemental surrounded by lost souls is very hard to reach.

Revenant - projectile is quite hard to dodge, and the monster itself is relatively fast.

Arch-ville - can't be dodged, ressurects, fast and pretty tough.

Mancubus - 6 mini rockets per salvo are much harder to dodge than single projectile. Individual projectile deals high damage.

Arachnotron - constant plasma fire is hard to dodge, in many circumstances impossible to avoid.

In general, new monsters have either instant hit ability, or their projectiles are harder to dodge.

Imps and hell knights tend to be placed in areas where running away is hard or impossible.

Demons love to appear in large groups, making it possible to immobilize victim (they can't attack mobile target).

Even cacodemons tend to hunt in packs.

Lost Souls can be spawned like there's no tommorow.

Spider Masterminds in DooM2 can be defeated without firing single shot !
Level6 - the switch. Gotcha level - fight with cyber. 23 Barrels O Fun - multiple arachnotrons, same goes for level29. Kinda sad, but it shows just how cheesy these monsters are.

I wonder how much distance would it take to kill Mastermind with one imp.

[Yossarian]

Doom 3 needs one bigass boss or some demon that makes you shit your pants when you see it coming barreling down some hallway at you.


Remember Duke Nukem 3D and its big mother-f***ing bosses? Yeah, D3 needs some of those.

[matt_c20]

What I'd like to see is something like a combination of Halo and Half-Life:Opposing Force. Like for example, you come to a point where your fellow marines are pinned down and need to get to that outpost in the distance, and they have turrets setup and you can take control and blast the fucking shit out of imps and whatnot.
After the long battle, something happens and you and your fellow marines get separated, like in AVP 2, which keeps true to the do-it-yourself factor of the previous dooms and adds a new interesting plot to Doom 3.

[Yo-Han]

The reason why you are alone(or almost)

dsm did guess it wright

Doom III starts out relatively tame. You arrive on the base and nothing disastrous has happened yet. You get to see what the UAC base looks like before the demons invade and then "you come back" and literally all hell has broken loose. Then you actually go to Hell.

[Tyockell]

Yo-Han said:

The reason why you are alone(or almost)

dsm did guess it wright

Doom III starts out relatively tame. You arrive on the base and nothing disastrous has happened yet. You get to see what the UAC base looks like before the demons invade and then "you come back" and literally all hell has broken loose. Then you actually go to Hell.

wikid..

[dsm]

Yossarian said:

Remember Duke Nukem 3D and its big mother-f***ing bosses? Yeah, D3 needs some of those.

Duke 3d didn't have that big bosses - they weren't much bigger than the cyberdemon from Doom.
But yes, Doom 3 needs at least one big boss (I'd assume that the new Cyberdemon will be pretty huge).

[AndrewB]

I agree that pre-scripted sequences generally really suck, are very lame, and kill replayability value.

I think that they should save a little dignity in Doom 3, and recognize the whole Doom concept for what it is. Fantasy. Not Sci-Fi. It's silly to try to make the game more "realistic" by having scientists and trying to think up what a Mars base "should" have. Really, the entire concept is one big "should not." So they should concentrate on what's fun, not what's "more realistic," because it's always going to be completely unrealistic.

Also, I find the one-liner to be incredibly lame and uninspired.

[Captain Red]

Ultraviolet said:
... They should make it kinda like Lemmings I say, and make it so that no NPC is guaranteed to die. It could be like a little mini-game, trying to be everywhere at the same time saving everyone from getting killed. And then, once you get them all in a safe location with all the demons dead, you could just toss a grenade in and... >:-D

that's a great idea! Save every 'saveable' (it a real word now OK?) and unlock a Secret level! (I'd like to see a doom 3 remake of E1M2 Personally).

[Ultraviolet]

Ct_red_pants said:

that's a great idea! Save every 'saveable' (it a real word now OK?) and unlock a Secret level! (I'd like to see a doom 3 remake of E1M2 Personally).

And here I didn't think anybody read that post. Heh.

[dsm]

Ct_red_pants said:

that's a great idea! Save every 'saveable' (it a real word now OK?) and unlock a Secret level! (I'd like to see a doom 3 remake of E1M2 Personally).

I don't want to play Doom 3 to save stuff - not even if it's just an option.

I think that they should save a little dignity in Doom 3, and recognize the whole Doom concept for what it is. Fantasy. Not Sci-Fi. It's silly to try to make the game more "realistic" by having scientists and trying to think up what a Mars base "should" have. Really, the entire concept is one big "should not." So they should concentrate on what's fun, not what's "more realistic," because it's always going to be completely unrealistic.

Times change bucko. The general public are no longer interested in plain fantasy - especially not in a shooter game.

Everyone wants realism nowadays, so I'm gonna have to disagree with you that it was a bad move to focus a little more on realism. I for one think it's cool that they add realism to the Doom aspect - especially because I took the Doom storyline much more serious back in the day than I do now, so it's only perfectly fitting for iD to make it all more believable.

[AndrewB]

But the point is, as long as they stick with the concept of monsters spawning and alien invasions and whatnot, (and if they don't then it's really not Doom,) then in that sense it's fantasy. Realism really isn't possible. Not when it comes to plot, storyline, and concept. If it's already far-fetched and impossible, then adding some fun elements that are not entirely realistic is not going to hurt the game.

Yes, people tend to want realism, before a game is actually released. After that, it's popularity and acclaim is usually determined by fun factor and addictiveness. There are many games that are hyped for their "realism" features before release, and then flop as gamers realize it's not really what they wanted. Example, Unreal 2.

And a final note... What do you think you are, some sort of authority on Doom 3? You don't need to be so obnoxious.

[dsm]

AndrewB said:
But the point is, as long as they stick with the concept of monsters spawning and alien invasions and whatnot, (and if they don't then it's really not Doom,) then in that sense it's fantasy. Realism really isn't possible. Not when it comes to plot, storyline, and concept. If it's already far-fetched and impossible, then adding some fun elements that are not entirely realistic is not going to hurt the game.

Yes, people tend to want realism, before a game is actually released. After that, it's popularity and acclaim is usually determined by fun factor and addictiveness. There are many games that are hyped for their "realism" features before release, and then flop as gamers realize it's not really what they wanted. Example, Unreal 2.

You can easily create a perfect balance of a fantasy plot and realism. Half Life did that and became immensely popular - a thing you seem to have forgotten entirely.

And a final note... What do you think you are, some sort of authority on Doom 3? You don't need to be so obnoxious.

No, I just have some opinions - and I also have opinions on other people's opinions. That's all.

[AndrewB]

dsm said:

You can easily create a perfect balance of a fantasy plot and realism. Half Life did that and became immensely popular - a thing you seem to have forgotten entirely.

But who wants Doom 3 to be a Half-Life clone? Those who ask for scientists, linear gameplay, and scripted sequences.