What are your feelings on the following :

[deldelda]

Gun Control: I myself had to take two six-hour classes on hunter safety a while back.

Abortion: I think the woman should have the baby then just put the baby up for adoption.

Death Penalty: I agree with BBG.

[myk]

Ichor said:
The problem is corruption in the justice system. Remember, it's "innocent until proven guilty", not "guilty until proven innocent" or "guilty despite being proven innocent".

I'll agree fallibility isn't the main problem with the death penalty, since that's a problem with any kind of punishment: being thrown in jail for years might not kill you, but the abuse and treatment quite often ruin your life (including possibly leading you to a life of crime or misery.)

As for corruption... that seems to imply there's a pure system or possibility behind it. I don't think so. And don't get me wrong, I don't ignore the fact that it's fucked up, but the nature of that fuck-up is not that it's warped, but that it's unjust for political and economic reasons. That's the one big reason the state can't be trusted with certain faculties, such as killing people as punishment or supposed prevention.

Also, and relatedly, the state is invested with the authority of concentrated power which is already a force to reckon with, and, like people with guns, must be monitored and controlled; because it's dangerous to anyone who isn't in a particularly favored position.

And, if I wanted to kill someone, I'd take the responsibility and do it myself. I wouldn't sit back and morbidly watch as I relegate the power of death to an institution. Once you give such power away it's pretty hard to take it back.

Lastly, as I see it, to be thinking about killing people judicially or to demand to live in a society where killing is an accepted form of moral regulation is either just lame or otherwise something becoming of a land or place not worth living in or near.

As for abortion, I'd rather let a woman ultimately decide about the generation and existence of her child than anyone else, including myself, her male partner, her family, friends, associates, the state, priests, or whatever.

[EllipsusD]

deldelda said:
Abortion: I think the woman should have the baby then just put the baby up for adoption.

I've noticed that a lot of people have taken this stance. I just want to ask you one thing, would you be willing to adopt a child? If not, do you know anyone who would? There are a lot of children currently up for adoption... just because a person can put a child up for adoption doesn't mean that it will find a home, let alone a good home. If you still think it's a better decision than abortion, then fine, I'm not trying to change that. I just don't want you to believe that adoption is such a great alternative.

[fodders]

EllipsusD said:

I've noticed that a lot of people have taken this stance. I just want to ask you one thing, would you be willing to adopt a child? If not, do you know anyone who would? There are a lot of children currently up for adoption... just because a person can put a child up for adoption doesn't mean that it will find a home, let alone a good home. If you still think it's a better decision than abortion, then fine, I'm not trying to change that. I just don't want you to believe that adoption is such a great alternative.

Soylent Green :P

[mystic]

MYK hits the nail right on the head. I second all he just wrote.

I will just add this, it baffles me that folk can say that its wrong to kill and then go ahead and sentence a person to death as if state sanctioned death is somehow not killing. Not only that but they seem to get some pleasure from the state sanctioned murder of another person. Something seriously wrong there.

As for folk having opinions about abortion, its ok for you to have an opinion but what gives you the right to force your opinion on someone else, possibly ruining their life and the life of that baby should it be born.
Folk who get all moralistic about other peoples sex life, condemning them as sluts for falling pregnant by accident in a moment of passion, do not deserve to have their opinions voiced in public, live your life the way you choose and allow others to do likewise, if some girl gets pregnant and wants an abortion its none of your business so keep your nasty thoughts to yourself.

[Submerge]

Gun Control - Nah. i think everyone should have guns. Everyone! But all of the ammo, should go to me. good god, some people are psychos i wouldn't trust with a sharp stick! But seriously, gun control is yes. i think rubber bullets should be available to civilians, and real ones? For people with a legitimate hunting license, and police officers.

Abortion - i hate to say this... but yes. Abortion is sad, but necessarry. As a footnote? A person should have to apply for abortion, and be screened. Only allowed to have an abortion if they are UNABLE to take care of the child.

Death Penalty - Yes, again. for crimes like murder and rape. Yes, rape. So what if she/he doesn't die? But you had might as well smash his/her soul to bits with a hammer.....

[The Flange Peddler]

mystic said:

its ok for you to have an opinion but what gives you the right to force your opinion on someone else

The point you're missing here is that it's not only about the pregnant person, but the unborn child. Yes, you shouldn't tell people how to live their lives, but by that logic what right do we have to stop someone who happens to like killing people? The thing is we have the right to live our lives the way we want to, as long as it doesn't effect other people (and going round killing for fun pretty much effects other people). Your argument about abortion forgets that the actions will effect another person (the unborn baby).

Regarding the death penalty. I think it hinges to some extent on whether you think the justice system is their purely to punish and deter, or to reform also. I don't see how you can be pro the death penalty if you think the justice system should act to reform convicted criminals. How can you reform a dead person? Case in point:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3070463.stm

[mystic]

What do you think gives you the right to decide if a girl can have an abortion? You have no right to make that decision so keep out of her business.

Guns are weapons of death, humans are stupid creatures that strike out in anger. Not a good mix.
That is why I would never choose to live in America, too many assholes with guns. As for the hunters, to me they dont deserve consideration, they go out and murder animals for fun, something I see as evil.

the death penalty. ITS WRONG TO KILL PEOPLE.

Funny how (in most cases) the same folk who oppose abortion because its 'killing an unborn child' are the same folk who like guns/hunting and support the death penalty.

[The Flange Peddler]

mystic said:

What do you think gives you the right to decide if a girl can have an abortion? You have no right to make that decision so keep out of her business.

You missed my point completely. I have no right to tell a pregnant woman how to live her life. Just as much as a pregnant woman has no right to decide whether another life should live or die.

[Rellik]

You can't really argue for either side that the fetus is alive, or it isn't. With modern science it's still unprovable. You also can't argue the potential for human life as then a person who murders a young woman could therefor be charged with the murders of all her future offspring as well. You just can't go down that road. The best thing to argue is the responsability aspect. If a woman is too irresponsable to control her sexuality perhaps having a child would be a good punishment. We are fast becoming a society where no one is responsable for anything they do, and there's always an easy way out. If people are too dumb to control themselves sexually, then the bad things that happen to them because of it is teh price they pay for being dumb. Just look at how in first world countries where the people are supposed to be so intelligent and educated, but HIV infection rates are still rising. We know it's here, we know how it's transmitted, and yet we still keep passing it around. It's nature at work trying to limit our numbers through our own stupidity. Personally I don't think people should be allowed to have children unless they can prove they can provide for it. You have to take a test to be allowed to drive a car, but any two morons can create a child.

I would be fine with abortion if the guy had a way out too. As it is though it seems it's an easy way out used by people who are to stupid to know how to use birth control.

[EllipsusD]

mystic said:
What do you think gives you the right to decide if a girl can have an abortion? You have no right to make that decision so keep out of her business.

If you saw that a man was gunning people down, and you felt it was in your ability to stop him, would you? If you found out your neighbor was a serial killer, and even if you knew they wouldn't do anything to you, would you still turn them in? And if you knew a friend of yours was planning to kill someone, wouldn't you try to intervene? See, the point here with a lot of people who actively oppose abortion is that they see the fetus as being a human life. If you don't believe that, then that's fine, but you have to understand that some people do. And these people feel that killing a fetus, abortion, is an act of murder. In their minds they have every right to stand up and be heard, and I honestly can't blame them. I don't have any problems with abortion, but I can at least understand where they are coming from... something I suggest you might want to try understanding as well.

In the end, it should be an individual's right to choose, at least that's how I feel. Just wanted to make that clear in case that last paragraph was misleading.

[mystic]

You missed my point completely. I have no right to tell a pregnant woman how to live her life. Just as much as a pregnant woman has no right to decide whether another life should live or die.

Actually, if you mean she has no right to choose abortion, you are wrong, she does have that right and should always have that right.

Rellik, I see where you are coming from, I agree folk should need a licence to have kids, how you square that with refusing the right to abortion is beyond me though.

Much better to have legal abortion by doctors in hospitals than go back to the old days when so many botched backstreet abortions resulted in tragedy.

It never ceases to amaze me the way some folk demonize a girl for falling pregnant, like she did something terrible. Remember how terrible a deed you think shagging is the next time you wank or make love.
OMFG, *shock horror* she had sex without a condom, what an evil bitch. Condemn her to a life of misery the dirty ho. You guys are such an open minded, understanding bunch.

[The Flange Peddler]

mystic said:

Actually, if you mean she has no right to choose abortion, you are wrong, she does have that right and should always have that right.

/me bangs head on table.

You don't get it again.

If it were the fact that her actions weren't effecting someone else then you are right, I have no right to tell her how to live her life. BUT if a person's actions are going to effect others (like going on a killing spree), then you don't have the right to act as you please. Her 'choosing' abortion DOES have an effect on someone else (depending on what you classify an embryo as).

Perhaps if you reread Ellipsus' post you might understand where I'm coming from.

[Fredrik]

Gun control: Yes. Registration, safety courses, trigger locks, making it illegal to make weapons accessible to children should all be requirements for a person to own a gun (I believe that's how it is here).

Abortion: Yes.

Death penalty: No. Criminals should be rehabilitated, not punished. If rehabilitation is out of the question, they should just be locked up - for the security of others, not as punishment. And humanitarian issues aside, the chance of a convicted person being innocent is enough of a reason to ban the death penalty. You can compensate someone for sitting in jail 20 years. You can't compensate if the guy's dead.

[Rellik]

I just think that if people were smarter we wouldn't need it. I'm not against abortion itself, it's what it represents that bugs me. Abortion is not birth control, but I personally know a few women who think it is. One of them has had 12 already. I fully believe that sexual stupidity will end up killing us all. Abortion doesn't bug me, the fact that we need it does. That's all.

[Grogglogobofink]

BBG said:

Actually, I changed my opinion slightly. I believe that, in order to satisfy the people that believe the electric chair is cruel, that lethal injection should be the only means of exectution.

i highly disagree with that. people should get some choice over how they die. i myself would far prefer the electric chair because for one thing i'm afraid of needles and secondly because it's slower and just seems like a far worse way to go.

[fodders]

Grogglogobofink said:

i'm afraid of needles and secondly because it's slower and just seems like a far worse way to go.

Baby, it's not like it's gonna kill you or anything...oh wait, YES IT IS :P

[Fredrik]

If I were to get executed, I'd choose "bomb room" (most painless way I can think of :P) or "bungee jump without bungee" (flying would be fun).

[Grogglogobofink]

Fredrik said:

If I were to get executed, I'd choose "bomb room" (most painless way I can think of :P) or "bungee jump without bungee" (flying would be fun).

"bomb room" sounds good yeah. i think that, "firing squad" and "suicide pill" round out my top 3 =P

[stphrz]

Gun Control: Yup yup. Guns are too dangerous to allow possesion without accountability.

Abortion: Personally I find the concept as repulsive as any concept could possibly be, although I couldn't look a woman in the face and tell her no. So I guess the option should be available for those who want it.

Capital Punishment: In a flawless system, sure. Otherwise no.

[Cyb]

Grogglogobofink said:

i highly disagree with that. people should get some choice over how they die. i myself would far prefer the electric chair because for one thing i'm afraid of needles and secondly because it's slower and just seems like a far worse way to go.

rofl, the electric chair is quite a bit more painful than lethal injection. I dunno if you've ever been shocked before (I have) but it HURTS, and that's just a small shock, this is enough to kill you.

lethal injection, on the other hand, you simply fall asleep and never wake up. in fact they first administer a drug that puts you to sleep (sodium thiopental). Usually around 5g of the stuff is pumped into you via an IV line (std amounts of the same drug used for surgery are around 100 or so mg, 50 times less). That in itself is actually enough to kill you, but once you're asleep drugs are administered that will stop your breathing and a final one puts you into cardiac arrest. a lot of people believe (though there is no way to prove it of course) that once the first drug has done its thing the inmate doesn't feel the rest of the drugs. it's about as humane as putting a person to death can be.

[Grogglogobofink]

Cyb said:

rofl, the electric chair is quite a bit more painful than lethal injection. I dunno if you've ever been shocked before (I have) but it HURTS, and that's just a small shock, this is enough to kill you.

yes, i've been shocked several times, and i'd rather feel pain than getting a needle stuck in me and then having to sit around waiting for the drugs in my system to kill me, especially considering many people go into seizures as well and start convulsing around. electric chair is just a second or two of pain, then it's over with.

[DarkWolf]

But killing isn't always wrong, Mystic. There is a time and place for everything. I'm not sure who your message was directed to, but I, myself, never said anything about killing always being wrong.

[[name_withheld]]

Gun Control: People who attempt to buy guns should have to go and have a complete and thorough psyche evaluation before they can purchase the weapon they have set their eyes upon. Then bring evidence that they are sane to the store owner (which to my knowledge is just a psychologists signiture). But this does have some loop-holes, if some who is mentally ill is smart enough they may be able to pass an evaluation, thus allowing them to own a dangerous weapon.

Abortion: People should have the choice to do as they please, if the mother doesn't want the child they should be allowed to abort it.

Death Penalty: The death should mirror the the offense. For example, if someone beats another person to death with a baseball bat they should meet the same fate.

[DarkWolf]

KingKill33 said:

Death Penalty: The death should mirror the the offense. For example, if someone beats another person to death with a baseball bat they should meet the same fate.

Hammurabi's code would be a good system to model others after. You'll never get people these days to agree to it though.

[Fredrik]

DarkWolf said:

Hammurabi's code

Ugh

[Dingus Khan]

Wasnt it Ghandi that said if the world were eye for an eye we'd all be blind?


It's all pretty silly and it makes it difficult for me to form an opinion of which is more just. So i just say fuck it because I cant be arsed with it.

[DarkWolf]

Hammurabi's code is probably a system more for a monarchial type government rather than a republic or democracy.

[fodders]

stphrz said:

Abortion: Personally I find the concept as repulsive as any concept could possibly be, although I couldn't look a woman in the face and tell her no. So I guess the option should be available for those who want it.

Capital Punishment: In a flawless system, sure. Otherwise no.

Surely abortion IS a form of capital punishment? The crime? growing inside me, the punishment? death.

[Rellik]

If I were to get executed, I'd choose...

I choose execution by old age.