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ukiro

non-orthogonal complexity?

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I'm looking for maps with very complex architecture that isn't following the grid. Not just stuff at a 45-degree angle, but preferably weirder angles. Ideally the structures should still consist of (roughly) 16, 32, 64, 128 and 256 pixel walls (yeah or 8, 192 or 512 or whatever) so that it's like a grid-made structure thats rotated slightly.

I'm looking for maps that has *some* of its structures at these odd angles, while others are following the grid or at a 45 degree angle in order to create more architectural diversity. I want to see if anyone has successfully used this to add to the mood, feel and gameplay of a map and not just to show off editing skills.

The more detailed the better - has anyone pulled off really über-detailed buildings in this style? or even über-detailed buildings with rounded corners, fake lightshading and all that too?

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for texture alignment it is always easier to work with the grid a bit.
I imagine anyone hardcore enough to make a complex map would design in this way (Lutz, Nightmare, Zarcyb, Tormentor, etc...).
Have you considered just moving the entire map, or areas of a map?

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Psst, Doug... that isn't really a newbie you're talking to there.

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myk said:

Psst, Doug... that isn't really a newbie you're talking to there.


then he should know his answer already. :)

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Opulent said:

Have you considered just moving the entire map, or areas of a map?


Oh, I know how to do it, don't worry :)

I just want to see if anyone has done it before, and if so how far anyone has taken this. Just constructing a map the regular way with traps and doors and "detailing" isn't interesting to me anymore, so I'm fiddling with ultra-complex layouts such as making structures at these unusual angles as well as having complex ceiling structures that overlap complex floor structures, thus causing some headache when trying to figure out all the sectors needed. Combine all that with curved walls and light shading and you've got quite a challenge, editing-wise... as well as rooms with 400 sectors.

If this thing ever gets done (not too likely it seems, don't get excited) I hope to raise the bar a bit... but in order to do that I need to know where the bar is at, thus my initial request for these kinds of maps.

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Fredrik said:

Dude, move on to the Doom 3 engine already :D


Nah, but I do have a go at some Quake 3 editing once in a while.

Now, doesn't anyone know of a single level that's constructed in the way I've described above? I've been trying to catch up on the last few years top releases but as soon as they get ultra-complex it's just grid-obedient orthogonal stuff, which is lame and boring ;)

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ukiro said:

Nah, but I do have a go at some Quake 3 editing once in a while.

Now, doesn't anyone know of a single level that's constructed in the way I've described above? I've been trying to catch up on the last few years top releases but as soon as they get ultra-complex it's just grid-obedient orthogonal stuff, which is lame and boring ;)


Why does it matter so much?

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Shaviro said:

Why does it matter so much?


Because as a mapper I enjoy the challenge of constructing a map, and "regular" detailing just isn't providing that challenge for me anymore.

Sure, some stuff in WADs like Cavern Of Darkness are very complex, but it's more a matter of patience than of skill.

I want to see if anyone else has explored these ideas and if so how well they succeeded. But it seems it either hasn't been done or those maps are well kept secrets.

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Millennium has a few warped levels like this, at all kinds of odd angles but in line lengths of multiples of 8, done mostly on a 1-pixel grid for that kind of accuracy. Of course, the issue is if it will ever see the light of day or not :P

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Lüt said:

Millennium has a few warped levels like this, at all kinds of odd angles but in line lengths of multiples of 8, done mostly on a 1-pixel grid for that kind of accuracy. Of course, the issue is if it will ever see the light of day or not :P


Aah, neat. Sounds like the stuff I'm looking for. Now if WadAuthor would only support 1-pixel grids...

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ukiro said:

Just constructing a map the regular way with traps and doors and "detailing" isn't interesting to me anymore, so I'm fiddling with ultra-complex layouts such as making structures at these unusual angles as well as having complex ceiling structures that overlap complex floor structures, thus causing some headache when trying to figure out all the sectors needed.


That's cool, but kinda sad in a way that you find classic Doom design to be boring. With as many maps as you have under your belt I can understand though. I seem to find inexhaustible fascination in the game still, and hope to stay like that.

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Ukiro -

WA does "support" one-pixel grids. It'll only display a grid as small as 2, but when you're dragging a line or vertex and hold the shift key at the same time, you can move things in one-pixel increments.

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Use3D said:

That's cool, but kinda sad in a way that you find classic Doom design to be boring. With as many maps as you have under your belt I can understand though. I seem to find inexhaustible fascination in the game still, and hope to stay like that.


I will probably keep coming back to DOOM for a long time too, though it seems to take longer and longer between my DOOMing periods. When I first played the original DOOM I was just a little kid at 14, now I'm an adult at 24, with way less time for these things.

And regarding classic DOOM design, I kind of feel I "mastered" that with The Darkening episode 2. So, having already squeezed the maximum out of the vanilla engine (map12 of darkening E2 is by far my best ever single player work) I feel like it's time to go to the next level. In this case that is making these very complex structures, so that in addition to the challenge of creating a map with interesting and varied fights, beautiful architecture, good lighting and clever layout I also add this new element of making the line-/sector-drawing a challenge in itself. This of course makes the map(s?) require a source port, but I guess it's just the LMP crowd that still uses the vanilla executable to any extent.


Biffy said:

WA does "support" one-pixel grids. It'll only display a grid as small as 2, but when you're dragging a line or vertex and hold the shift key at the same time, you can move things in one-pixel increments.


Ah! Man, thats excellent! thanks a million, this will help tremendously. Now if I would just have read the help files earlier ;-)

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ukiro said:

Aah, neat. Sounds like the stuff I'm looking for. Now if WadAuthor would only support 1-pixel grids...


You can also turn the 'snap to grid' option off. But you'll need the object filter to highlight one.

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Little Faith said:

Realm of the Spider Gods (rsg.zip) is pretty non-orthogonal and also a pretty cool wad.


That's not quite what I had in mind. In fact, that level was almost the exact opposite of what I'm looking for in terms of layout. What I mean is a map where the author has constructed ceiling architecture independently of floor architecture as well as building rooms and structures at other angles than 90 degrees, preferrably also other than 45 degrees. This map looked more like a first attempt by someone who hasn't learned why one should stick to "binary" floor & ceiling heights and wall lengths. Not that it was shockingly ugly (apart from the recoloured sprites), but in terms of building skill it's still a mediocre map, at best.

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Fredrik's Vrack 3 will be exactly what you're looking for... if it ever gets completed that is.

BTW, did you know that ZDoom lets you rotate flats to any angles? A very useful feature in a level like you describe, although so far it hasn't really been used very much.

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NiGHTMARE said:

Fredrik's Vrack 3 will be exactly what you're looking for... if it ever gets completed that is.

BTW, did you know that ZDoom lets you rotate flats to any angles? A very useful feature in a level like you describe, although so far it hasn't really been used very much.


Looking forward to Vrack 3 and Millennium then.

I've been thinking about using that feature, but then I could just as well use slopes, scripts and all that stuff too, which I don't intend to. It'll be for any source port with the VPO limit removed, unless I feel I have tons of energy left when it's done (whenever / if ever that happens).

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ukiro said:

Not that it was shockingly ugly (apart from the recoloured sprites), but in terms of building skill it's still a mediocre map, at best.

Apparently, it's all in the eye of the beholder. :)

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ukiro said:

What I mean is a map where the author has constructed ceiling architecture independently of floor architecture


I can't think of many (any?) wads that have this (at least not in abundance). I've actually been thinking about this sort of thing recently, and concluded that it's just too damned time-consuming with the doom engine (well that's my excuse :P ). I think it's probably the one thing that's actually a lot easier to do with modern engines.

I'm doing a level at the moment that's supposed to be in some old base. Sometimes parts of the floor are missing, sometimes the ceiling. Though I never do both overlapping (unless of course the floor exactly mirrors the ceiling). There is one part with some corridors, which have these overhanging cables made of sectors. At one point some (different sized) crates block the passage, whilst the cable still runs along the ceiling above them. It's not complicated by any means, but even this quickly raises the sector count by quite a bit.

So yeah, to do anything remotely complex, you'll end up with very high sector count rooms. Not to mention a splitting headache.

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