Why games need a use key

[Laguna]

This pertains to another thread.

I'd say having a use key is handy because there are things that would be more logical if you had it, than not.

For example Quake3. Are there any levels you can think of, where inadvertently pushing a switch will open an otherwise locked door when there's a fag with a BFG outside? That kind of thing frustrates me because it FORCES the player to interact with the environment, even when it would probably be tactially unsound.

This is a reason I DO like Half-Life, since you can choose when you do or do not want to interact.

The map I am doing for Quake3 - Phobos Base - had a unique commodity in the sketches that is probably impossible now thanks to no availability of a "use" key. I was hoping that I could make a switch on top of the fuel tanks where you can overload the pipes and cause radiation to leak out, thus killing anyone trapped in it (using the func_door and trigger_multiple entities). However, I'll have to move it to a remote area control room (in the toxin refinery areas and fuel stations) so the player does not accidentally push it and trap himself or herself in there, should they be bunnyhopping or looking around. This is one of the reasons I liked Urban Terror and other games that allowed the player to choose such a thing. However, judging from info gleaned from the Doom3 alpha, and other sources of information, the player is able to operate and interact with the environment via a pseudo-GUI. This is pleasing, however, since the possibilities with THAT are endless, and it may allow for the player to circumnavigate or even innovate the problem prompted by the lack of a "use" key.

In summary, I guess there could be worse, but having the OPTION of interacting is always a plus.

[dsm]

Laguna said:
This pertains to another thread.

I'd say having a use key is handy because there are things that would be more logical if you had it, than not.

For example Quake3. Are there any levels you can think of, where inadvertently pushing a switch will open an otherwise locked door when there's a fag with a BFG outside? That kind of thing frustrates me because it FORCES the player to interact with the environment, even when it would probably be tactially unsound.

This is a reason I DO like Half-Life, since you can choose when you do or do not want to interact.

Well, afaik you can perfectly well choose when to interact with stuff in Doom 3 - it's just a matter of deliberately walking up close to the computer panels and aiming at a specific panel. The weapon will only drop if you're close enough and aim exactly where you need to aim - you won't aim directly at a computer panel while sticking your freakin' close up to the computer screen so that you touch it unless you actually want to interact with the thing - hence, no risk of you accidentally interacting with the computer while fighting enemies.

Locking doors should also be perfectly possible I'm convinced - just walk up to a switch next to a door, interact with it and the switch, upon activated, locks the door - see? It's all good and well.

The map I am doing for Quake3 - Phobos Base - had a unique commodity in the sketches that is probably impossible now thanks to no availability of a "use" key. I was hoping that I could make a switch on top of the fuel tanks where you can overload the pipes and cause radiation to leak out, thus killing anyone trapped in it (using the func_door and trigger_multiple entities). However, I'll have to move it to a remote area control room (in the toxin refinery areas and fuel stations) so the player does not accidentally push it and trap himself or herself in there, should they be bunnyhopping or looking around.

Perfectly true, but this is Quake 3 Arena and switches and doors are more sensitive to your presence than those in Doom 3 - Doom 3 will be different and much better, despite having no use key.

However, judging from info gleaned from the Doom3 alpha, and other sources of information, the player is able to operate and interact with the environment via a pseudo-GUI. This is pleasing, however, since the possibilities with THAT are endless, and it may allow for the player to circumnavigate or even innovate the problem prompted by the lack of a "use" key.

Quite. Btw, have YOU tried the alpha yourself? Your comments suggest that you actually haven't but I might be wrong (don't worry, I haven't tried it myself either so I'm not ridiculing you or anything like that)

In summary, I guess there could be worse, but having the OPTION of interacting is always a plus.

Ah, he's seeing the light just as I did :-)
But as I said, you do have the option of interacting in Doom 3 afaik - like I said, it's just a matter of deliberately moving close enough to something interactible - this is pretty much like deliberately pressing the use key when facing a switch, namely because you can swiftly shift back to combat mode if you mistakenly started lowering your gun if too close to a computer.

Can you follow me?

[D-clone]

Doom 3 does have a reload key, why not have the option if having he reload key work as a use key when youre in fron of something useable? Like in NOLF2. If you wanna get simple i mean.

[Laguna]

Yeah I have the Alpha actually, but to keep in line with the policy I will not reveal anything about the alpha that is contraband on this forum.

But yes, there are GUI type surfaces in the game that allow the player to make a variety of selections as to how to interact.

[insertwackynamehere]

Use key is needed. It's more important in my opinion than everything except for "fire" and "run/walk".

[D-clone]

Youre alowed to talk about the alpha, just dont give it or information on how to get it to anybody. Oh and no screens, which by the way i just found out is F11.

Yea I like the in game GUIs. Theres something weird about it though. There are some places , like next to doorways which if you look at them, your gun is put down, like you can press the button and activate something.

[dsm]

Oh btw, there IS a use key in Doom 3 - it's pretty much the fire key. Just walk up to the thing you wanna interact with and if you're indeed interested in interacting with the thing, press fire. If you don't wanna interact - just back off again.

If that's not a simple-working use key, I don't know what is.

[EllipsusD]

Well, the use key is not as important as interactivity with the environment in a game. The thing is, in most situations, a standard simple way manipulating one's environment is necessary, and that just happens to be a 'use' key. Doom 3 is one of those exceptions, mainly due to the setting in place. Considering how far in the future the game takes place, it makes perfect sense that doorways and machines would be controlled through computers, and the GUI system adds more to the immersive effect than a simple button could. That being said, however, there is no need to say that an actual use key would be out of place in Doom 3. It all depends on what extent you are able to interact with an environment. The way Doom 3 is shaping out there will be no interaction beyond the things that require the GUI system, and there doesn't need to be. But on that same note, there are a lot of games still that need a use key as opposed to the new system. It's all dependent on how things are set up.

[Enjay]

dsm said:

Oh btw, there IS a use key in Doom 3 - it's pretty much the fire key. Just walk up to the thing you wanna interact with and if you're indeed interested in interacting with the thing, press fire. If you don't wanna interact - just back off again.

If that's not a simple-working use key, I don't know what is.

Bah! sounds like Doom3 will be deciding for me when I want to interact with stuff. Oops did I step a little too close to that panel before I pressed fire? Oh! looks like I'm in interact mode now - better back off. Not fatal, just annoying and breaks the gameplay and immersiveness. I'm pretty sure I'll find that just as frustrating as MS Word always telling me when to indent, capitalise and bullet point my documents. I don't need a computer to second guess me all the time (and get it wrong with frustrating regularity).

In a FPS, I want to press use, when I want to, not have some proximity system decide something needs to work because I'm near it. I hate that! I know what I want to do - the computer doesn't! The activation system in the Quakes came pretty close to ruining those games for me, reduced the replayability of them to a certain extent (ie it was one of the things that spoiled my enjoyment, so made me less likely to want to play the game over) and I strongly suspect it will tarnish my enjoyment of Doom3 too. Quite simply I find it detracts from the gaming experience in a number of ways.

It has to be said however, that my opinions are based on "judging the book by its cover" because I haven't played the Alpha. Given my Quake experience though, it seems a reasonable guess as to how I'll find things.

(and before anyone tells me - yes I know all that auto "correct" stuff in Word can be switched off. It's switched off on my own computer, but personal settings like that are not saved on my work machine.)

[Shaviro]

Enjay said:

Blah blah blah blah

heh. Trust me, it's neither annoying nor a problem.

[dsm]

Enjay said:

*A lot of far off bullshit*

You either haven't read my responses carefully enough or you're just a plain blind to my words. I said loud and clear that you can only interact with stuff in Doom 3 when you want to - there's no way you can "accidentally" move too close to a computer, because you have to face the panel - do you deliberately face computer panels when you're fighting enemies? No you don't.

And lemme repeat what I said: Doom 3 is NOT like any of the Quakes - the interactivity system is way better implemented than in Quake, where you could back into buttons and accidentally press them once you got anywhere near them, whereas in Doom 3, you'll have to move up close enough to touch the panels and actually face them.

Oh and I doubt that you could accidentally press the fire key when you're close enough to the panel like you described, because you'll have to wait for the gun to lower before you can actually manipulate.

A use key is no bad thing, but it's just an extra key and with Doom 3's system it becomes a totally redundant key - and that's good.

[Zoorado]

And you don't even need to back off to regain combat mode.

Suppose you are right in front of the computer panel (as in you can't go forward any further), with reticle pointing towards it. You weapon will automatically be lowered and shift into "interactive mode". To have your previous weapon back, simply move the mouse cursor (which you use to interact with things) away from the panel, and your gun would be up in a split second. Even if you stumble into "interactive mode" by accident (which rarely happens), you can just do a 90-180 degree turn and you're all ready for combat... no keys required. ;)

[auxois]

Yeah, we established a long time ago that the Doom3 method of interacting with things is superior to anything else, ESPECIALLY the clumsy Doom or Quake methods from yesteryear. The only games whose methodology I like even half as much are Deus Ex and System Shock (2), but even theirs is simply not as smooth as D3's.

So, anyone arguing otherwise is a moron and should be stabbed in the face repeatedly with a case expansion slot bracket. A rusty one.

No, I'm not kidding.

[dsm]

auxois said:

So, anyone arguing otherwise is a moron and should be stabbed in the face repeatedly with a case expansion slot bracket. A rusty one.

No, I'm not kidding.

And you need to calm down and stop calling people morons before I stab YOU in the face with a rusty nine-inch-nail, pal. Jeez, you're beginning to be even worse than I am when I get one of my fits.

Calling people morons because they haven't had the "priveledge" of playing the Alpha really is just another way to pin a big, flashy pink sign on your forehead where it says: "I AM A MORON I AM A MORON I AM A MORON". No, they're not morons, they just don't know better all right?

[auxois]

No, not alright, and you're a cuntswab. STAB STAB STAB

[Fredrik]

Drop it.

[NiGHTMARE]

I think this thread should be renamed to "Why games DON'T need a use key" ;)

[Scabbed Angel]

dsm and auxois said:

Fun stuff about nailing each other..eh

You guys are funny because you're so alike and hate each other (at least it seems that way in your posts when your fighting... (lots of personal...."stabs" heh hee) Hmmn..amusing.

In any case, having played the D3 Alpha, I like the interaction. Having doors open in front of you for example, like in many recent games is believable with the idea of giant, metal sliding doors. Chances are, unless the area was suposed to be locked (which some are and require a keycode) it would make sense from the perspective of the scientists working in an area that is not quarantained(sp) there would be no reason to lock the or provide a switch to open them. I hated that in D1. Yes, you can accidentally open doors in many games, but you're going to be opening them anyway, and if you aren't ready for it, you shouldn't be playing anyway. Okay, so you can't close doors behind you... in D1 monsters could open doors in some cases once you went in the room and exited. No difference there, is there? I don't see one. And the control panels are very well implemented in D3, and that's only the alpha. That door is locked (requires keycode) so that problem is solved. As dsm and others said, you have to be facing the panlel for the gun to drop and if id is intending for that to be an obstacle while a monster is chasing you, its not going to be in the way of combat (you just turn around and your gun will raise) and even if a monster is between you and the panel, (a.)your gun will not drop, and (b.) its in front of you anyway, having a use key would not change the fact that its blocking your way.
Just a few thoughts.

[beezee88]

Romero said:
I now believe that a USE key is an important concept to keep in FPS games because it enables interaction with your environment and allows more control over it.  In DOOM deathmatch, you would always use the USE key to open and close doors between you and your opponent; it was an important DM strategy.  In Quake, you basically have no control over doors -- they open when you touch them, but you can't close them on command.

This is from an old Romero interview on Doomworld. What does he say now?