Will Doom 3 be linear ala Half-Life?

[AndrewB]

Not a complicatied thread at all. Just a simple question. Do you think it is or is not likely that Doom 3 will be a very straight-forward game?

Of course, I don't hide the fact that I'm of the opinion that flexible, multi-path games are just vastly superior. Linear, pre-scripted "Truman Show" type games are just one step away from interactive movies, quite possibly the worst genre of game there is.

[Captain Red]

As linear as any other id game. I'd imagine.

[Scuba Steve]

I'm sure the game will be fairly straightforward... but I'd like to see some story branches.

I don't see that the technology is there to allow for full open ended gameplay. Even Nonlinear games are still very linear. GTA3? Sure, it's a vast expansive world...but what do you do? drive around in cars... and kill people. There are no open ended driving cars under buildings and blowing them up sending the building toppling over onto the highway smashing it. So much work goes into making amazing details and startling scripted events that I don't see true open ended gameplay for many years at least. The best offer they can give now is linear decisions... go this way or do that. Even 6 or so branches in a game would be enough to add plenty of replay value.

Andrew... if these games are so "terrible" what would you suggest we be playing? I understand there are other genres... but that doesn't make a good linear game bad. If you say Mario 3 I'll beat you. I'll play it and love it.. but not for 13 years. Same goes for Doom if anyone plans on throwing that in my face.

[Linguica]

Of course Doom 3 will be a rail shooter, just like basically every FPS in the last 5 or so years. Some companies (cough cough Raven) are worse about it than others, but pretty much any "traditional" FPS nowadays is going to be linear, i.e. there's one path to follow through the level to ensure that you see all the pretty scripted sequences and neat effects the developers have spent their time honing.

Of course EVERY game is "linear" in the sense that you have a starting point and a finishing point, but yes, I think Doom 3 is going to be "linear" in the sense that every room has 2 doors, the one you came in and the one you leave from.

[DaJuice]

I think the problem is money. Id is a small company, and I think an open-ended game would take much more time, and staff to create. I know that's a pretty broad statement, but when you think about it, that's what it comes down to.

[Fredrik]

DaJuice said:

I think the problem is money. Id is a small company, and I think an open-ended game would take much more time, and staff to create.

They made it in 1993.

[DaJuice]

I'm talking about Doom3 you douchebag. Id have already said the game will be pretty linear.

[Fredrik]

I'm talking about your claims that they can't build an open-ended game because they have too little money, time and staff. That is an interesting claim seeing as id Software ten years ago was roughly the same size and had significantly less money, yet managed to produce a fairly nonlinear game.

[Widow Maker Mk.II]

Open ended FPS games would take too long, would be too hard to pull off well and would ultimately be shit.

[toxicfluff]

I generally much prefer games where you have multiple choices at any given point (but not completely non-linear) - I love Deus Ex for this, and there is some plot events in the game that I still haven't learnt how to prevent. However, I think Doom3 is probably going to be a basic, straightforward ID shooter.

[Naked Snake]

DaJuice said:

I'm talking about Doom3 you douchebag. Id have already said the game will be pretty linear.

Wow, that's intelligent, calling a moderator a douchebag. Good going, DaJuice.

[Fredrik]

Widow Maker Mk.II said:

Open ended FPS games would take too long, would be too hard to pull off well and would ultimately be shit.

Ultimately shit? If you're going to put forth opinions that are ultimately untrue, at least make an effort to convince us why you think you're right.

BBG said:

Wow, that's intelligent, calling a moderator a douchebag. Good going, DaJuice.

As if I'd care (especially when it's coming from him :P)

[Widow Maker Mk.II]

I was only voicing an opinion. If people attacked everything you said that was untrue, you would no doubt have to defend yourself on a 24/7 basis. I couldn't care less if I convince people otherwise or not.

[Fredrik]

Widow Maker Mk.II said:

I couldn't care less if I convince people otherwise or not.

If you couldn't care less, then why bother posting? I believe most people here find the thought that any open-ended FPS game would "ultimately be shit" controversial and possibly fascinating. I, for one, am strongly interested in hearing why you have come to form that opinion of yours.

[Tetzlaff]

Linguica said:

Of course EVERY game is "linear" in the sense that you have a starting point and a finishing point, but yes, I think Doom 3 is going to be "linear" in the sense that every room has 2 doors, the one you came in and the one you leave from.

Yes, there are like different degrees of linearity, depends on which aspect of the level / game design you´re looking.
There are level design aspects that make the progression through the level more non-linear, like different objectives in different rooms, or two different ways to reach the next room, this also includes the use of secrets and exploration.

Quake1 and Quake2 both had a good ammount of non-linear progression through the levels. The speedrunnig demos of Quake1 are a good example for the potential non-linearity of the level design. Or the hub levels in Quake2, and all the secrets and secret levels in all their previous games.

The worst case of linearity I ever experienced in a FPS was the level design in Unreal 2 - The Awakening. There the progression through the levels is a tiringly straight line, no exploration, no side-tracking, no secrets, nothing. If you ever came to a room with 2 doors in Unreal2, it was like an unwritten rule that you could alwaya only open one door, never leaving the player any choice, always forcing him to follow a pre-defined path through the map.

I´m quite confident that Doom3 will not so horribly linear like U2. Though it would be really nice to bring non-linear level design on a higher level. That is Deus Ex style game design, where you have the choice between two or more ways to complete the current objective, and the inclusion of voluntary secondary ojectives, plus deeper exploration possibilities.

[LorD BaZTArD]

Open ended FPS games would take too long, would be too hard to pull off well and would ultimately be shit.

Bullshit. Of course....it is coming from the widow maker himself, but still, It drives me insane when this subject comes up. "Oh, it's just an FPS, you don't need a story" or "Oh wow, look at how many awesome polygons make up that small insignificant part of that useless area! this game must rock" Great FPS's can have more elements that shooting shit.

Why can't an FPS have more elements? Multiple paths in the story, A well written story, occasional changes in area/style of play (Perhaps adding RTS/RPG elements.

Vehicles (And not adding 5 vehicles, one of each type every 20 missions or so, A regular army would have plenty of vehicles and variations of vehicles) Even touches like vehicles having unique touches. An well used vehicle should look well used with scars all over it, a newer vehicle should look freshly painted. (Also, I've seen several games where a character comments on previous versions of vehicles, so why not show those vehicles, or perhaps not even show them but have that information in a ship database you can read if you want)

It's little details like that that make you think "wow, this area is worth saving" or "It's like actually being in a real base....cool" to make an area beleivable, Weapons/Tools that make sense to the environment, Allies who are intelligent and work with each other beleivably. Bases that are base like....with machines building things, non-combat units all over the base checking it, combat units patrolling, and the same inside.

On the weapns side too, if I hit a tree with a rocket, that tree should damn well fall over and cause damage to the environment, An office wall IS NOT resistant to a shotgun. A large vehicle hit by a heavy weapon should rock from the impact....debris from a small vehicle should be spread a long distance......and a crashlanding ship should leave a massive trail in the ground.

Well placed enemies and behaviour. Another thing, with enemies, is too often you have these "Unstoppable creatures that are destroying everything in their path" but an army is only as good as it's units. So if you get close enough to the enemy, sometimes you should be able to units panicking, cursing as shots miss, fright as someone just drops unexpectedly.

Elements that can just add to a game. Yet I never see them. I know why, So the chances are that won't change....but complex games are far superior to simple ones. Yet another issue is people thinking "Ok...complex game...let's make it look complex" Screw that, all the complex stuff should be hidden away, and presented subtly, Simple interface != Simple game.

Another point, is screw all that "RPG-lite stuff" Give the game a full RPG ruleset. Make the RTS elements huge and foreboding. Start a level with a new planet, build the base from scratch....then maybe in a later mission, fight for your life through that same base that you build as it gets utterly overrun. Just try and put some thought into the world being created.

[Widow Maker Mk.II]

The point of posting is discussion, not trying to convince people what you think is right. If you think that the target audience of your posts are mindless enough to be swayed into thinking what you say is correct, then so be it. I am however at a loss as to how you ever became a mod if you think the essence of this forum is force feeding people ideas. You do appear to have quite a lot of free time, I suppose therein lies the answer to my previous misunderstanding.

The ideas circulating this forum have been stale since before even the time of deadnail leaving. Many people here I do not recognise. The forum was at its peak when it had its old design, years ago.

There, a set of some of my opinions.

[Ichor]

I've always liked the ability to leave the main path and explore, but not to the point where it's easy to get lost (which is why I don't like the super huge maps like map 20 of Alien Vendetta). If Doom 3 does end up too linear, I won't complain as long as we can easily make our own maps however we want them (and Cyb can make another canthide, the most nonlinear map there is, heheh).

Oh, and Scuba Steve...

Mario 3

[Ultraviolet]

Fredrik could probably kick your ass. He's Swedish.

Anyway, ideas are not always equivalent to opinions and vice versa, and opinions are like assholes (everybody has one and it probably stinks).

[Fredrik]

The point of posting is discussion, not trying to convince people what you think is right.

People posting yay or nay in sequence is not a discussion.

If you think that the target audience of your posts are mindless enough to be swayed into thinking what you say is correct, then so be it.

Considering that you are my target audience in this case, what you're saying actually applies.

I am however at a loss as to how you ever became a mod if you think the essence of this forum is force feeding people ideas.

My idea is that this should be a forum where people can discuss matters related to Doom 3 in a fruitful and intellectually stimulating manner. That will only happen if people care to argue their points. Throwing unfounded opinions around is for the polls (now supposedly Blogs) forum.

[Widow Maker Mk.II]

If you genuinely believe that discussing a game can be "intellectually stimulating" then I doubt you have had a remotely worthwhile further education, if at all. Pathetic.

[Julian]

Widow Maker Mk.II said:

If you genuinely believe that discussing a game can be "intellectually stimulating" then I doubt you have had a remotely worthwhile further education, if at all. Pathetic.

If you think it isn't, then you come to dw to enhance your dumbness?

[Widow Maker Mk.II]

If it means exchanging unpleasantries with imbeciles such as yourself, then clearly yes.

[Julian]

Widow Maker Mk.II said:

If it means exchanging unpleasantries with imbeciles such as yourself, then clearly yes.

Maybe I forgot to tell you you were just tolerated around here.

[toxicfluff]

Widow Maker Mk.II said:

If you genuinely believe that discussing a game can be "intellectually stimulating" then I doubt you have had a remotely worthwhile further education, if at all. Pathetic.

Truth is that, if you are a smart person with another smart person, you can usually have a fairly intellectual conversation about most things.

[myk]

Fredrik said:
They made it in 1993.

Not exactly.

Some of the arguments above against this certainly do apply. Just look at how simple DOOM is overall, how all its features are functional and to the point, and also look at the nature of the resources, many of these are simply based off of existing material (Cacodemon, the music, the sounds, scanned toys and equipment, etc.) DOOM 3 on the other hand has much more complex, detailed and original material; add then the additional work required to make it both fearfully convincing and openended while keeping in track with story-line type elements and you'll begin to see that it's one hell of humongous job, possibly an impossible one.

Aditionally, the main designers and owners of the company here are the Carmacks and Cloud, two artists and a coder. Their work will inevitably take precedence, because of their importance the game is in many ways a display of their abilities, more than anything. They can hire good developers and are surely they can work fluidly with them, but they are the stars in this show (they are the main productive attraction,) the rest are important, but hired hands.

Thus its no surprise if the game, while well crafted and probably entertaining, will be simply a basic and primal example of the engine's capabilities, coupled with the artists' fine work. id is a small first rate company and relies a lot on others using their stuff as a base: Either amateur mod makers to make it popular, game developers to acquire a license, or even machinimia artists or other software developers. The game itself might be limited, but it serves as a tool and a base for a lot of things; id doesn't need to aim for something else and they would probably lose out if they did... if they ever eventually released something.

[Lectrix]

I like the idea of doom 3 being linear, aslong as they supply more content and a few optional missions (which id seem to be concentrating on, ie scary scenes and monsters left right and center, and the mini missions.)

Coz if you want a non linear game, go get a more RPG type shooter coz i doubt doom3 will shift from the standard simple gameplay which I WANT! ;D

[Disorder]

I like linear games. I hate it when I have to look for a door for 15 minutes. Although too much linear gameplay can be annoying as well.

[Fredrik]

Disorder said:

I like linear games. I hate it when I have to look for a door for 15 minutes.

You're confusing linearity with directivity. A game can have a clearly laid out path from the start to the end while still allowing the player to explore the world or change the route according to how brave he's feeling.

[DaJuice]

Fredrik said:
As if I'd care (especially when it's coming from him :P)

Ohh, BUURNNN.
Anyways, I don't think anyone has ever attempted to create a truly open-ended FPS, something like Lord Bastard descibed. It would be too much content to create, especially when games are getting more and more technologically advanced, and it takes more and more time to create the content (having to build high-poly models as well as low-poly ones for example). And like Carmack said himself, they can't afford to take risks, people have certain expectations of what an id game is like. If they diverge from that formula and the product fails...well, that wouldn't be good for id:P Doom3 will be a very starightforward game I think.
I would love to see what an open-ended FPS looks like though.