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stoned

why doom?

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What makes you stick with Doom editing?
I mean, there are many more versatile, true 3d games, like Quakes and Half-lifes and what not, but here we are editing this 10 year old game. Why?
For me, Doom just is more fun. Because i've been editing since 95 or something, i'm more comfortable building with Doom's "2.5D" engine, than these true 3D games. It's faster, simpler and you can still make cool stuff with it = more fun.
And Doom is my favourite game anyway. It's just the coolest, i mean no game has had effect like Doom did when it was released. Not many games around, that you enjoy playing 10 years after.

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stoned said:

For me, Doom just is more fun. Because i've been editing since 95 or something, i'm more comfortable building with Doom's "2.5D" engine, than these true 3D games. It's faster, simpler and you can still make cool stuff with it = more fun.
And Doom is my favourite game anyway. It's just the coolest, i mean no game has had effect like Doom did when it was released. Not many games around, that you enjoy playing 10 years after.


All the above but for me also, it's scripting. Without any coding knowledge at all, I can make a sidescrolling platform game with it's own weapons, items and gameplay nuances. There's no other gaming engine I know of that I could just add this kind of stuff into by myself.

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Mainly it's because making my own Doom levels is fun. I can use my imagine and create my own little world to play around in. Plus when I play a particularly good level, and it's for Doom or Doom2.exe, I know that if I try hard enough I could very well make a level that is just as good, if not better. That makes me stick with Doom editing as well.
Also I attempted to figure out Quake editing, and it baffled me, so that's another reason - Doom editing is easier :)

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ToXiCFLUFF said:

All the above but for me also, it's scripting. Without any coding knowledge at all, I can make a sidescrolling platform game with it's own weapons, items and gameplay nuances. There's no other gaming engine I know of that I could just add this kind of stuff into by myself.


most newer 3d engines allow a much greater degree of control than any Doom source port actually

the major reason people edit doom over other games is because of simplicity and familiarity or tech limits (ie they don't have a computer powerful enough to run new games)

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Same here, it is EASY. Plus you can always hound people like Dark Wolf or ToxicFluff to help you write up the funky scripts you need to pull off amazing feats!

I've been playing DOOM since a few months after irs PC release date, as well as many other DOOM clones that came out on my beloved Amiga back in those days. I've been editing for about 4 years now, and that time would have been longer if I would have not spent the 1st few thinking "I'd never figure that shit out". :)

It is TRUELY amazing how far you can take then engine, if you put a little time, creativity, and patience into it. I've always had an obsession with seeing how far I could push old technology. That would explain why I still use Amiga, and a Dreamcast sitting around.

Homebrew is what hollywood is not! :)

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Cyb said:

most newer 3d engines allow a much greater degree of control than any Doom source port actually the major reason people edit doom over other games is because of simplicity and familiarity or tech limits

ToXiCFLUFF said:

...Without any coding knowledge at all... ...no other gaming engine I know of that I could just add this kind of stuff into by myself.


Well, there isn't. Until this year, I'd mainly been editing true 3d engines (Quakes 123, half-life, unreal). Most of these games did not support decent scripting. Unreal script confused the hell out of me, the scripting in Jedi Outcast seemed fairly basic anyway and Duke3d's con scripting is great for weapons and characters, but not huge gameplay changes. Since I cannot program to any reasonable degree in any language, I believe my point stands.

As an aside though, I find true 3d editing about 10x easier than Doom or Duke3d. It's like building out of Lego, and there is no immediate limits apart from the non-concave polygon and no level hull leaks rules in the Quake engines.

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editing for Doom is easy and fast, and thanks to doom's gameplay, there are multible ways to add gameplay and depth into Doom levels.

And what Fredrik said...I am just stuck with it.

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Cyb, is your avatar from that old SNES game? Damn, a long time since I've played that one . . .

Anyway, I edit Doom because of its action. Modern FPSes suck in that department.

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Without the fun a game is usless.

And Doom is very useful to me.

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ToXiCFLUFF said:

As an aside though, I find true 3d editing about 10x easier than Doom or Duke3d.

I'm sure standing on your head feels easier too, once you get used to it. It's really only about what you get used to. :)
But yeah, basically true 3d editing is easier, because you have all the dimensions to use, but imo it's much slower and gets very confusing when you have lots of brushes and stuff on the screen. Especially for beginners who are used to Doom for example, because seeing 3-4 or more screens on your Quake or whatever editor feels much more confusing than any Doom editor with only one editing screen.

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stoned said:

I'm sure standing on your head feels easier too, once you get used to it. It's really only about what you get used to. :)
But yeah, basically true 3d editing is easier, because you have all the dimensions to use, but imo it's much slower and gets very confusing when you have lots of brushes and stuff on the screen. Especially for beginners who are used to Doom for example, because seeing 3-4 or more screens on your Quake or whatever editor feels much more confusing than any Doom editor with only one editing screen.


See, I actually edited Doom before moving to Quake. I didn't make many levels with it, and none released, but I did make some nonetheless pretty decent maps. But I just found Quake much easier to edit, and so I moved to that, what with the (then) new lighting tech and everything. I found the difficulty curve from Quake to Unreal much harder though - the engine principles in Unreal were odd compared to my experience with Quake.

I dunno, I guess I find 3d editing easier because it is so much harder to fuck up than it is in Doom, and just seems like building out of lego to me. One area I hadn't touched on in my previous post was to do with ease of use in relation to achieving the aesthetic you want. Up until Doom Builder's release you never had a way to see your level as it was being built without myriad playtests, whereas with 3d editing you always knew how close your level was looking to the initial idea in your head (structurally, at least).

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stoned said:

Oh, i see what you mean.
Doom Builder sure makes Doom editers life easier.


Yeah, absolutely. It's saved me a lot of time in fine-tuning texturing and the scale of areas and stuff. Strange really, since compared to the other Doom editors there are, it was in development for the least amount of time.

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That's what trips me out, is the fact that DOOM Builder is so new, yet so advanced in comparison to all of the other editors. I was a registered DeepSea user up till last month when that ran out :(
and I can honestly say that I have a LOT less troubles, and "fuck ups" using DOOM Builder, than I did in DeepSea. On the other hand having a registered copy of DeepSea has its good points, seeing as it not only has built in graphical tools, but also has a DAMNED good error checker too. So now, I build with DOOM Builder, and use DeepSea, to scan for errors, which is a RARE thing to come across now a days. :)

I predict that with DOOM Builder, a lot of newbie DOOM Mappers will be hitting the sceen. Oh and lets not forget to give WhackED some much deserved credit too!

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I predict that with DOOM Builder, a lot of newbie DOOM Mappers will be hitting the sceen.

As a newbie to the strictest term, I'd have to say Doom Builder is the best invention since sliced bread. Compared to the other Wad editors I have experimented with, it is like walking on foot and then hopping on a speeding car. The texture auto-allignment feature is a complete blowout, and the ability to change structures and lighting in real-time 3-D just made every Doomer a potential AV/Darkening author. With this in mind, everybody, make a megawad so I can play it.

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