Help Save Doom 3!

[Captain Red]

Save us!

Inspired by This thread. probably should be moved to the doom 3 forum.

[AndrewB]

The checkpoints and between levels/missions/maps idea are pretty much the same, but I vote for the checkpoints. Look what it did for Goldeneye.

[sirjuddington]

Whenever I please. Its mighty frustrating having to play a fairly long, hard part of the game over and over.

[Disorder]

I'd like to be able to save whenever I want, although a maximum amount of checkpoints per map will make the game more tense. So I'm not sure.

[Amaster]

Save points like the resident evil series.

[toxicfluff]

I say quicksave in easy-normal skill and a checkpoint system for skills above that - a compromise between practicality and retaining tension. But with fairly frequent checkpoints, not a one checkpoint halfway through the map system. Between mission saves would be horrible because of the possibility of playing the same section over far too many times. Although if the game is well balanced, this shouldn't happen if you choose the right skill level.

I'd most likely prefer between mission saves, but it's not palatable for most people. I think the checkpoint system is a decent compromise between all the player types.

[Zoost]

I want the save points like natural moments in the game. So for example you can save when you lock yourself in (the bathroom, another room) where you actually feel "save"

I leave it to Id how they are going to implement this ;)

[Tetzlaff]

I voted for checkpoints, if that means that you always have unlimited saves at a ckeckpoint (?).

And I hope there aren´t annoying jumping puzzles involved, because then the lack of quick saving would be a pain. Anyone remembers the Navy Seals Center deadly obstacle courses in Daikatana LOL

[Shaviro]

checkpoints!

[Fredrik]

Save whenever I want, so that I can save when I feel I'm close to what could've been a checkpoint :P

[Tyockell]

Save whenever you want, checkpoints are fucking annoying and deture me from games.

[Grazza]

"Save Whenever I damn well please! (original Doom)".

And a few autosaves at sensible points where they won't be a nuisance.

BTW, remember that savegames were a bit bugged in the original game though, since monsters that had been awake would be asleep upon restoring.

[Tetzlaff]

Please explain the checkpoint save system, I havent yet playe a game with that feature. Has it unlimited saves at a checkpoint? Are the cheackpoints designed like stations or are they just invisible entities?

Don´t know, maybe the checkpoint system just results in time-consuming running arround, if you walk back to the last checkpoint every time you want to save.

[BlueSonnet]

Either the ability to save anytime i want or between levels is fine with me. However saving any time i want might make the game less scary though or rather decrease the impact of the atmosphere. Well for me anyway.

[dsm]

I was thinking...
Maybe it would be cool if the game saves your progress when you exit the game.

Basically, it'd mean that you could save whenever you want to, but only if you exit the game - you wouldn't want to exit Doom 3, then restart it just to save the game when you reached spot X before Hall Y just because that area looks creepy, since it would be too much trouble to exit and restart D3 just for that.
However, if little Billy plays Doom 3 and mommy suddenly yells "dinner time", all li'l Billy has to do is exit the game and it will automatically save his position no matter where he is.

When he goes back into the fray, he can load the game and continue from where he left off.

[DooMBoy]

I say save whenever you want to, it's in the first couple Doom games and I don't hear anyone complaining about it there.

[Russell_P]

Save whenever you want! Anything else is just too damn irritating in my opinion.

[Enjay]

Save whenever I please.

Save points and the like are sooooo damned frustrating. They do not increase the tension in a level, they increase how pissed off I get at having to repeat over and over again some shitty puzzle or annoying fight or whatever. That isn't tension building and it rips me out of the experience and doing it is no more realistic than multiple saves anyway. Checkpoint saves will have one guaranteed outcome - I will have used some form of cheating before even completing the game for the first time.

For those that don't want the ability to save at any time, the answer is simple - don't do it. Save at the end of a level or after significant points in the game - just like a checkpoint. Why should I have a map designer telling me when to save in my game running on my machine all bought for with my money? I want my fun that I paid for, and I want it my way. I certainly don't want to be told when I can save, especially as the checkpoints are bound to get it wrong for my particular game and set of circumstances.

[Fredrik]

Walk through walls whenever I please.

Solid walls and the like are sooooo damned frustrating. They do not increase the tension in a level, they increase how pissed off I get at having to repeat over and over taking long detours to reach a room I can see right in front of me. That isn't tension building and it rips me out of the experience and doing it is no more realistic than walking straight through walls anyway. Solid walls will have one guaranteed outcome - I will have used some form of cheating before even completing the game for the first time.

For those that don't want the ability to walk through walls, the answer is simple - don't do it. Pretend you can only move through open space - just like if the walls were solid. Why should I have a map designer telling me where to go in my game running on my machine all bought for with my money? I want my fun that I paid for, and I want it my way. I certainly don't want to be told when I can walk in a direction, especially as the walls are bound to get placed wrong for my particular game and set of circumstances.

[AndrewB]

Just to clarify: I think the point I wanted to make was that making a game HARD isn't enough to make it scary if the save-on-the-fly exists.

Scariness is not transposible with difficulty. I think the best experience is when the game makes you think that it's hard, but then turns out to not be so bad. This is just an art; there are many different ways to go about doing it.

By the way, Fredrik's analogy is a pretty good one.

[Julian]

Fredrik said:

Walk through walls whenever I please.

Solid walls and the like are sooooo damned frustrating. They do not increase the tension in a level, they increase how pissed off I get at having to repeat over and over taking long detours to reach a room I can see right in front of me. That isn't tension building and it rips me out of the experience and doing it is no more realistic than walking straight through walls anyway. Solid walls will have one guaranteed outcome - I will have used some form of cheating before even completing the game for the first time.

For those that don't want the ability to walk through walls, the answer is simple - don't do it. Pretend you can only move through open space - just like if the walls were solid. Why should I have a map designer telling me where to go in my game running on my machine all bought for with my money? I want my fun that I paid for, and I want it my way. I certainly don't want to be told when I can walk in a direction, especially as the walls are bound to get placed wrong for my particular game and set of circumstances.

Grand.

[Enjay]

Fredrik said:

Stuff

Yes, very good parody. And to be fair, you have a point. Why should I just circumvent the level and not play it as intended. Surely that would be pointless.

Yes, and no.

If it is shitty level design, then why can't I just walk through walls? By that time I will have lost most of my interest in the game, but may be intrigued as to how it turns out. Let me walk through walls and get to the end. It's either that or I uninstall it and toss it on the never play again pile. If that's how I choose to get my value out of the game - why not?

If I actually do want to play the level through, examine every corner, savour every fight etc etc, then I'm not going to clip through walls, but I may want to save a lot. What if I'm a crap player? What if I like the peace of mind of a save? What if I don't want to repeat the last half dozen fights and puzzles since the last check point that I will now have to mechanically repeat, with none of the "voyage of discovery" of the first time through just because I fucked up and ended chewing a fireball before the next checkpoint?

And to get back to your point about walking through walls, or any other form of cheating, making things easy for myself or game circumventing (because I know your point wasn't actually about walking through walls). Why the hell not? Again I come back to my point about my game, on my computer, for my money, my way. Why not? I'm gonna shell out a fairly healthy pile of cash for the game. If I want to walk through the entire thing on god mode, no clipping as I go - why not? Does it affect id? No they already made the game and got my money for it. Does it affect other people who play the game? No, they have their copy and can play it as they wish. Does it affect anyone? No! So if I choose to play in any way I like, then why can't I? If that's how I enjoy playing the game, then why shouldn't I? I'm not hurting or adversely affecting anyone by it. Why shouldn't I get my money's worth out of it? If I feel the only way for me to get my own, personal maximum enjoyment out of it is to cheat like a bastard, then why not? I will have paid for entertainment. Let me be entertained - in whatever way entertains me. I'm not playing the game to honour the great god Carmack, I'm doing it for fun - my fun, and I don't give a toss what Carmack or anyone else thinks of how I play it. They have put out a product that I have paid to use. It should suit my needs, not theirs.

For the record, I do intend to play Doom3 honestly, but if I end up in a situation where I have somehow cocked up and ended up in such a way that I cannot continue, or am faced with trying to complete a frustrating puzzle for hours on end, I will quite happily give myself the edge via a cheat code or a frequent save (assuming they are available) to allow me to continue. What else should I do - replay the entire thing from scratch? Toss it in the bin because I can't get any further? No, I'll cheat for as long as needed to get past the sticking point, then go honest again. And why shouldn't I?

And even more stuff for the record. I personally have always regarded the ability to save a cheat anyway. A sort of clumsy god mode. So anyone using savegames for any purpose other than saving a game to come back to and continue from at a later point is cheating in my book. So, anytime I get killed and go back to a save, I'm cheating anyway. You know what - I can live with it.

If the game is good, I'll go back and play it over and over. Hopefully getting better each time, hopefully being able to rely less and less on cheats and hopefully being able to cope with harder and harder difficulty settings.

[Fredrik]

Geez, don't wear out your keyboard.

Anyway; I also prefer to cheat (by using quicksaves, god mode etc) instead of getting stuck if I end up in a really frustrating situation. It all comes down to playing the game in the way I find the most enjoyable, and that does sometimes involve balancing the pride and satisfaction of beating the game properly against the temporary relief of saving myself from having to go through something extraordinarily tedious.

[Enjay]

Fredrik said:

Geez, don't wear out your keyboard.

Heh, OK, :-)

[Coopersville]

I like the idea of having safe rooms between missions where you can save your progress and prehaps restock on some ammo too. But the SAVE WHEREEVER THE HELL YOU WANT style is fine with me. I don't abuse it like some might think it's for.

[Fredrik]

Quicksaves obviously have a huge advantage for anything that does not relate directly to experiencing the main game. For example, they're extremely useful when practicing advanced speedrunning tricks.

[The Flange Peddler]

Save whenever you want.

Having limited saves (by whatever method) is just a cheap way for developers to try and stretch the longevity of a game. Whilst it is a method that probably works, it means you'll just be playing the same bit over and over and over again until you get it just right... Not what I call fun.

And as has been said, it's not like you can't just choose not to save if you want more of a challenge.

[Fredrik]

The Flange Peddler said:

it means you'll just be playing the same bit over and over and over again until you get it just right...

Isn't that the point of a game? Or are you saying a game should let you go straight from the start to the end without giving a crap?

[Arioch]

Fredrik said:

a game should let you go straight from the start to the end without giving a crap

Yes.

[Fredrik]

That can be fun too, but it's not what I'd expect from Doom 3.