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Grazza

The /newstuff Chronicles #156

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Hellbent said:

That makes very little sense. And is very rather stoopid.

Read some old threads in the multiplayer forum (there's one called "Doom gods" or something which is particularly relevant). Apparently people have invested countless hours 'learning' certain levels (i.e. Doom 2 maps 01 & 07, Dwango 5 map01) and now see playing these levels as some kind of artform or some such nonsense. Basically I think these people either take DMing far, far too seriously, or are just too lazy and/or stupid to 'learn' any other levels...

BTW, the sentence "And is very rather stupid" is pretty ironic considering it's grammatically incorrect =P

So people will play custom maps with bots on skulltag, but not against live opponents? And what's the resoning behind this mandess?

Pretty simple really: Playing a DM game against a live opponent requires two or more people who actually want to play that map, rather than D2 map01 or whatever. Playing against bots requires only one person who wants to play that map (i.e. you). After all, bots don't have opinions about what levels they want to play ;)

Oh yeah, Dwango 5 map01 ought to be banned from servers on the grounds that it's actually illegal (being a modification of Doom 2 map01)

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NiGHTMARE said:

Oh yeah, Dwango 5 map01 ought to be banned from servers on the grounds that it's actually illegal (being a modification of Doom 2 map01)

On those grounds, most of all mods including SkullTag itself should be banned. SkullTag uses a bunch of copyrighted sprites that are modified without permission from id software. =)

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I don't see why it should need be banned. I just don't see why people don't play better stuff like exec and chainsaw and boomsticks.

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Im inclined to think its laziness - you can get fragging on a Dwango5 server on doom connector any time of the day, but if you want to play something else you have to hope someone else is going to join you. I'd rather just get in there and then complain about the shitty Dwango maps afterwards...

I dont think thats the whole reason, but it has to be a contibuter somewhere.

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NiGHTMARE said:

Oh yeah, Dwango 5 map01 ought to be banned from servers on the grounds that it's actually illegal (being a modification of Doom 2 map01)

Now now, let's not go down that path :) (D2DM1 is MAP01-like)

sargebaldy said:

I don't see why it should need be banned. I just don't see why people don't play better stuff like exec and chainsaw and boomsticks.

People become accustomed to certain standards. They develop a lot of familiarity with those and feel secure with them. When this happens, they're less likely to try and accept new things, despite them being "improved" or "better". I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm just saying that's sometimes how it is.

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I wish I could have gotten my comments in earlier, but I need to say it.
Despite what everyone says, I think that Mock2.wad is a masterpiece. It's not meant to be taken seriously, and I found it quite hilarious. There were a few levels in there that were too annoying, even with iddqd on.
I gave it a 5 of 5.

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Joke wads are fine as long as they are SHORT and ORIGINAL. In this sense dwforums and impse were great joke wads because they didn't take all day and they actually did something clever. Most of Mock2, like the SLIGE level, was just banal. Sadly the secret maps were among the best, which makes no sense because most people won't play them anyway.

Things like the giant shitting man at the end of the credits level, or the series of relatives being killed followed by a couple of troopers, were very inspired and entertaining. Other things like running back and forth down a crooked hallway for 10 minutes, or running around a giant ass fence to press a series of switches, were not.

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Linguica said:

Things like the giant shitting man at the end of the credits level

Thanks :P

And the fence level was obviously meant to be cheated through, meh.

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Okay, here's my take on it (which nobody asked for) . . .

Yes, a lot of it is annoying. But I personally find annoying funny, to a degree. Needless to say, map18 is torture. The idea behind many of them is to play it once, snicker for a second, and skip ahead before you get a hernia.
I wouldn't go so far as to say 99% of it is annoying.

Map01: The 3d bridge that doesn't work, followed by an annoying long dark corridor where you can accidentally chainsaw barrels and blow yourself up. Funny for a second, then annoying.
Map02: To tell the truth, this is before mock2 started to develop a personality, so I kind of just abused a few things here and there. If it was the only map with the super-long elevator concept, it might have been funnier.
Map03: Maybe a bit annoying, but the idea of punching cyberdemons, simply to get past them into the next room seems funny to me.
Map04: Not much of a joke to this one, but I didn't find it annoying.
Map05: I think it was fairly innovative to abuse the teleport-line like that, and the completely invisible bridge was a nice touch.
Map06: Yeah, it's a big room with 1000s of cyberdemons, but as unoriginal as it sounds, I think it's at least a little fun just to hear the cybs roar so many times. Also fun if you use IDDT and watch the minimap.
Map07: I thought this was a brilliant idea. It's annoying as hell, but it looks and sounds funny. I think the funniest thing about this level, though, is that someone was crazy enough to put the time into making something like this. I have to respect someone who would do that.
Map08: There are many ways to have fun with this one. But if you get bored of it, it's very easy to reach the exit switch and move on.
Map09: Annoying on many different levels. (eyesore, you can't tell where you're going, the music will make your ears bleed, pain elementals) The humour in this one is in just how much torture the author can subject you to in one small room.
Map10: "Catch the switch" was a little funny. "Shoot the nazi" was quite funny to me. So was the room with the crazy shifting tiles. There's not much else. The map really lags at the beginning, but otherwise there's not much annoying about it.
Map11: Okay, this was when I was starved for ideas, and at the time I thought slopes and particle fountains weren't being abused so I just combined the two. Kind of dumb, but it's really easy to get past it, so I know it's not annoying.
Map12: I was very reluctant to add this, but Ebola convinced me that we should have a slige wad as a tribute to all the bad slige wads out there. I thought why not, but don't say I didn't warn you to skip it.
Map13: If you play with -nomusic, you're definitely not going to get this one. If you had the music on and still didn't find it funny, why?
Map14: Yeah, there's a very long twisted corridor that takes forever to get through and that can be annoying, but I can safely say I didn't see it coming the first time I got to the end and opened the giant room of cyberdemons.
Map15: I don't care if it annoys you. If you don't have the patience for something like this, you're not the sort of person who should be playing joke wads. This map's good the first time, probably not worth it a second time.
Map16: The big frown alone makes me laugh, and Sarge came up with the best title for a map name ever. There's not much else to it, but at least it's short.
Map17: The 2-sided textured walls that you have to walk through . . . remember when maps used to have these, back before people knew how to do decent maps? This map took me back. And the fact that you have to keep running makes it fun to me.
Map18: This one definitely made me laugh the first time, but I still didn't have the guts to play through it. 12 seconds of this wad will tell you "just move on". If you're masochistic enough to keep playing for longer than that, you've brought that pain upon yourself.
Map19: Well, a couple of things made me chuckle. It's probably an old joke to shape a map like a person or a bunch of words (like "u are a fag") but it could have been worse. I liked the idea that there were way too many soulspheres at the beginning.
Map20: This one is just so bizarre, I couldn't help but laugh.
Map21: The door that takes forever to open might be a bit annoying (I didn't find it that bad) but the rest of this short level seems more than worth it.
Map22: "Small world". If you didn't notice this part you missed half of this map's fun. The mirror maze was great on the "WTF" scale.
Map23: The long hallway of crushers that leads you to one single health potion is great. The ledges shaped like "1337" add to the fun. Also, in case you didn't notice; Every single wall is scrolling, and every sector is secret.
Map24: To tell the truth I expected a bit more from Zarcyb, but the fun factor for this one is still up there.
Map25: I loved this one. It *almost* looks like you're in some sort of city, albeit a really stupid one.
Map26: You have to like this one. A McDonalds with "Fight Imperialism!" written on the door, a kitchen full of corpses, and a slide.
Map27: As if you don't have enough keys after the first couple of rooms, it starts raining them. Brilliancy itself.
Map28: I would have rejected it, if not for the boom-water trick that caused me to fall through the floor. It definitely took me by surprise, and I did laugh.
Map29: I've heard mostly positive comments about this one, so I'll leave it alone.
Map30: Well, there's only one big joke in there, the "dont get the bfg cauz theyre gay" part. I had a couple of doomers in mind as the target for this joke, and I almost qualify as one of them. :p
The pointless overuse of voodoo dolls and the ludicrous number of boss brains and shooters were kind of lame, but what the hell.
Map31: "This sort of thing's not my bag, baby". I think most of the zanier stuff is reserved for the secret maps. Note that at the time I thought it would be funny to make a whole bunch of secret sectors so you keep getting "YOU FOUND A SECRET" over and over again, but AirRaid did the same thing for his map with *every* sector, so it doesn't work as well.
Map32: Exploding corpses falling out of the sky . . . zombie cheerleader pyramids on top of self-detonating barrels . . . how can you not like this one?
Map33: Basically I just abused the underwater trick. Not much here. Also, I purposely mislead the player into thinking there are weapons for them, but to get them they must cross a line that exits the level.
Map34: A few strange jokes in here. First, the crazy teleporting monsters. Second, railgun-toting cyberdemons. Third, bizarre abuse of the ambient sound feature. Fourth, you may notice the kill count will be well over 1000% when you finish. This is because of a script that spawns zombies off-screen and immediately blows them up, only to increase your kill count past 100. Sort of the pointless elaborate variety. I don't know. I liked it.
Map35: Here are some things you might possibly have missed if you played this level: 1; The message it plays at the beginning of the level is picked randomly from a list of zany video game quotes. 2; When you kill one of the arachnotrons, sometimes it plays the "toasty" sound from Mortal Kombat. 3; Assuming you didn't bother trying to get past the river of projectiles, a tower of cyberdemons forms. 4; There's a little mini-game to be found near the end.
Map36: Ouch. This one's funny, then annoying, then funny, then annoying. I think Deathz0r takes pride in the amount of torture he can make you go through just to find out if the next part will be funny.
Map37: Well, the Linguica switch is the only joke here. But when Ultimate Doomer sent in his levels I just thought they were too weird to put in any particular order. So I made this one to give you the option of playing one or both, or skipping them.
Map38: Cyb rocked my world. Unfortunately the best feature of this map was ruined by a zdoom feature change. :( Still awesome, though.
Map39: This one's quite torturous, but not as bad as map18. The worst thing about it is that you tend to play it for longer than map18. Still had some funny parts. I laughed at the "spitting image of hell" remark.
Map40: Heh.
Map41: Most of you seem to like this one as well. I was intending from the beginning to have one level for "credits" but the idea of piecing together different bits of different maps seemed to work well. I like how the theme fluctuates so drastically.

Okay, yes. It's not brilliant from start to finish. But those who say it's completely annoying and not funny are either without a sense of humour, or are without the slightest ounce of patience or open-mindedness.
Ralphis: You are in no position to judge.
Erik: "Mock2 fails it" is all you have said for months. Maybe if you had an actual argument, you would be worth arguing with.
This isn't to say that I don't think there wasn't some improvement to be done. There really is a lot that could have been funnier. But all in all, I feel the time spent on this project was worthwhile. It was fun making it, it was fun playing it, and it was fun hearing people react to it.

Some of the criticism is appreciated, and in some ways I know what *not* to put in joke wads from now on. This isn't to say I'm going to be working on 1000 other joke projects, I'm probably about as sick of them as half of you are. But eventually, who knows. It's a unique kind of entertainment. And I don't think anyone can argue with that.

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what *not* to put in joke wads from now on


oh gn0, does imply mean that you will make more joke wads?

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Hyena said:

Okay, yes. It's not brilliant from start to finish. But those who say it's completely annoying and not funny are either without a sense of humour, or are without the slightest ounce of patience or open-mindedness.


We're allowed to have our own interpretation of what's funny and what's not... that's what separates us from the conformists.

EDIT: not saying I didn't find any of it funny BTW, so don't jump to that conclusion too, but I didn't greatly anticipate this project as much as stuff that I wish would see the light of day.

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Well like Hyena said. True, Mock2 isn't funny from start to finish, but it wasn't meant to be. It was ment to be funny, and everyone found something funny. Anyone who says it wasn't funny at all either has no sense of humor or is a liar... or didn't actually play but one or two maps.

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Nanami said:

True, Mock2 isn't funny from start to finish, but it wasn't meant to be. It was ment to be funny


What? :P

Sorry I'm done, this is not gonna get us anywhere. Funny wad sometimes, wish other projects would get released too, etc. :)

Still kinda holding my breath for December 10th, wondering if Plutonia II or something will make an appearance along with Daedalus (I have a suspicion Hell Revealed II will be there, since all that's left is testing).

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Okay, slightly odd phrasing.

It wasn't meant to be funny from the moment you open it to the second you close it. To make you fall over laughing the entire way through.

It was just meant to make you laugh at any point. At least ONCE.

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Hyena said:

Map24: To tell the truth I expected a bit more from Zarcyb, but the fun factor for this one is still up there.

Yes well you only gave me 5 minutes to make it!!!111111one

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Map24 kicks some serious ass.

Vile said:

Still kinda holding my breath for December 10th, wondering if Plutonia II or something will make an appearance along with Daedalus (I have a suspicion Hell Revealed II will be there, since all that's left is testing).

Thanks for that info. Any more specific information nearer the time would be very useful indeed, since we've got a number of people lined up to help with T/nC #159, but currently have little information about what is and isn't likely to come out on time.

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Erik said:

oh gn0, does imply mean that you will make more joke wads?


You really really need to read the whole message before you post replies. If you read the next two sentences, I answered that.

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I haven't played through it yet, seems like a time consuming wad. After playing level 2 about 10 times trying to beat it and being a non-cheat code using purist, I really started getting annoyed waiting for the damn lift every time, I did chuckle the first time, or maybe even the second time I sat there with my thumb up my butt waiting for the seeming interminablity of the momement to end. But from what I played of it I thought it was at least entertaining if not funny and map 3 was actually pretty cool, joke or no joke, on its own merits, with the hell room and all the pillars.

All this bickering about it is sorta surprising. I think the way it was receieved was nothing less than what should have been expected. Obviously many people are gonna hate it, becaues of what it is and is meant to be. That's just the way people are. While, on the other side of that shiny, if not bitter, token, you have those that eat it up, or at least can understand that it's just a joke.

As far as the December 10th event. I think maybe some people should be recognized? Lüt's wad never got released, did it? Or did it. Haven't been around, but if it never got released (millenium I believe it was called) that'd be an event for such an occasion. But, anyway, some people that I can think of that might be worth getting a mention: r, for being the most avid DMer in the world and for playing new dm wads, not just dwango 5 map01.

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Carnevil said:

People become accustomed to certain standards. They develop a lot of familiarity with those and feel secure with them. When this happens, they're less likely to try and accept new things, despite them being "improved" or "better". I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm just saying that's sometimes how it is.


I think this must speak largely to why so many people are still playing doom, period. A lot of us were like 13 and 14 when doom came out, a prime age for such fare. How many relatively new people (say, last 4 years) are still primarily doomin'?

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Hey, Ultimate Doomer

1 Drink: Someone abuses the bbg tags.
2 Drinks: A newstuff flamewar takes place.
3 Drinks: A DW regular registers a new username and posts a stupid thread.
4 Drinks: A male registers with a female name and posts a 'hello' thread which draws a huge response.
Finish the Bottle: When Mock 2 is released.
Finish the Entire Crate: When Millenium is released.

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Is it really so surprising that mock2 was released? I mean, the only reason it took this long is because I was without internet for 2 months.

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