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Baron of Hell

Final Doom, unbeatable?

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I'll admit it, I have never actually beaten or attempted to beat Final Doom. I have beaten The Ultimate Doom and Doom II though. Some time back, I remember reading a review on Final Doom, a rather appauling review. I myself love Final Doom, it's a must have for real Doomers. In this review I remember this person saying that it is not possible to even beat the game on ultra-violence, is this true? I know that level 32 in The Plutonia Experiment (Go 2 It) is insane, with about seven Cyberdemons, fifty Mancubuses, one hundred Barons of Hell, thirty Arch-Viles and one hundred Arachnotrons but I have beaten it without the use of cheats. Level 31, (Cyberden) features 4 Cyberdemons in one small area, I haven't beaten that level though...

So to conclude my rambling on my question is, is Final Doom impossible to finish on Ultra-Violence?

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Dare I venture a guess... that this was NoPoet's review you happened upon, because he said the same thing and the doom community called him on it. Granted his review site was pretty thorough, he had some bizarre opinions that didn't sit well with most anyone who read them. Of course we also had a good laugh reading them at times, like his review of Ultimate Doom that left out e3m9 because he thought he kept getting warped back to e3m1, but in his words, it was probably bollocks anyway. ;)

To answer your question, Final Doom is very beatable, and is rather tame compared to some of the levels and megawads you'll find nowadays.

EDIT: Check out the links sarge posted, and feel free to snoop around the other categories, as almost every level in both megawads have been beaten in Nightmare skill.

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sargebaldy said:

And speaking of stx-Vile :)

Show me a demo of the original version of tnt map31, I bet even you can't beat that!


Well, with the trick route, it can be done in under 30 seconds. No yellow key needed. :)

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Plutonia is pretty tough on skill 4 and is still up there with the toughest megawads ever. (you have to be pretty good to beat it)

Evilution is much easier, although harder than DooM 2 itself. (skill 4 is pretty much do-able by most DooMers)

BTW, if you're wondering about sargebaldy's comment on map 31, it's because the original version is missing a yellow key. It should be in the room with the small crusher and 2 health potions (you'll know when you see it).

You can deselect the multiplayer flag on the key with an editor, download the bugfix patch or use ZDoom and type 'summon yellowcard' in the console when you reach the room.

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Vile said:

Well, with the trick route, it can be done in under 30 seconds. No yellow key needed. :)

Awww damn, should have known never to say "I bet you can't" to a doom-god :)

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Actually the yellow keycard is there it's just that it has the "Multiplayer" tab ticked. If you play cooperative, it is there.

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Vile said:
Dare I venture a guess... that this was NoPoet's review you happened upon, because he said the same thing and the doom community called him on it. Granted his review site was pretty thorough, he had some bizarre opinions that didn't sit well with most anyone who read them.


I loved them. :-) It's refreshing to see a differing/"bizarre" opinion once in a while... And he really did write some excellent reviews, for example one on Alien Vendetta. I also believe his site is back up, with some new reviews, and old ones as well..

EDIT: Yup, it was. You can find it at http://www.nopoet.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/reviews.htm

Check out the links sarge posted, and feel free to snoop around the other categories, as almost every level in both megawads have been beaten in Nightmare skill.


In fact, all but one, TNT map 9. By the way, I know you were working on the remaining "undone" TNT maps (map 2, map 8, map 9). What happened? Have you given up on tn09? :-/

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Kristian Ronge said:

In fact, all but one, TNT map 9. By the way, I know you were working on the remaining "undone" TNT maps (map 2, map 8, map 9). What happened? Have you given up on tn09? :-/


Given that I no longer have win98, so the only chance of playing the original exe is without sound, my attempts are over. The farthest I ever managed to get was the blue key, when enemies could turn up anywhere and there was almost no way to defend myself. I did have the rest of the level planned out and it was possible, but it would need more luck than I had the patience for.

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Vile said:
Given that I no longer have win98, so the only chance of playing the original exe is without sound, my attempts are over.


That truly saddens me. :'-(

Oh well, it's not the end of the world. You still made several incredibly hard and beautiful NM runs for TNT, as well as the amazing episode runs, and let's not forget of course the 30ev! :-D

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Vile said:

Given that I no longer have win98, so the only chance of playing the original exe is without sound, my attempts are over.

I think you can get a program to let you play it with sound and stuff, but I don't remember the name of it.

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sargebaldy said:

I think you can get a program to let you play it with sound and stuff, but I don't remember the name of it.

VDM Sound, but it only works with Windows 2000 and up.

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NiGHTMARE said:

but it only works with Windows 2000 and up.

What else would you need it on? :P AFAIK Doom runs great on anything except Windows 2000 and up. Although I haven't been able to get VMD Sound to work either.. when I try to load Doom with VMDS I don't get any sound.

Why, I wonder, hasn't someone just made a simple Windows port of Doom, without adding or changing anything?

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Because (as I know from experience) people have itchy coding fingers...

-"Oh, look! We can implement jumping! And flying! And 32,000 players simultaneously in DM! And ..." ;-)

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PrBoom, Win32 Doom, ATB Doom, and Doom95. Closest you can get from a direct DOS -> windows port of Doom.

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The source of the dos version of doom was never released, so it's quite hard for anyone to do a port of it. Also, there are differences between the doom, doom 2 and final doom .exes.

I _think_ prboom can simulate all three of them through various comand line parameters, but i'm not sure.

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Anders said:

The source of the dos version of doom was never released, so it's quite hard for anyone to do a port of it. Also, there are differences between the doom, doom 2 and final doom .exes.


There are the versions of DOOM 1.9 EXEs. The original DOOM/DOOM2 EXE, the Ultimate DOOM EXE and the Final DOOM EXE. Theoretically, the Final DOOM one should be the best and should run all DOOM IWADs. But it fails when you try to run Registered (not Ultimate) DOOM. It doesn't detect that it's the three-episode version (the wadfile is named DOOM.WAD in both versions) and crashes when you try to start a new game.

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The Final DOOM engine also has a bug that makes the player arrive somewhere between the floor and ceiling when teleporting. I'd say the most "perfect" one, for whatever that is worth, is the one for The Ultimate DOOM, which, incidentially functions like Doom95, demowise.

Ct_red_pants, as usual: -playdemo demoname. On Boom itself if the demo isn't in the same directory as the engine you'll have to add it with the -file parameter, much like a wad. PrBoom and similar new engines load it directly if you append the necessary path to the demoname.

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Are we talking about saving or not? With saving it's ok, I finished both, TNT and Plutonia. The only problem is Plutonia's final map, where you can't save, due to save game buffer overflow, I guess.
I finished the level, anyway :-)

Doing the whole Final Doom without saving is a different question, though...

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Deathmatcher said:

The only problem is Plutonia's final map, where you can't save, due to save game buffer overflow, I guess.


Are we talking about MAP30? I don't think it has anything to do with the savegame buffer overflow, because it's not a large map at all. It may have something to do with the Icon of Sin. I understand that if you saved a game with an active Icon of Sin using the original EXE, it would crash when you tried reloading and playing it later.

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Yeah, you're right. It's no buffer overflow. You could save it, but whenever you reload, it crashes. Is this possibly due to a lack of spawn points for the monsters?

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how exactly do you beeat that final green room, where you have to fire into that hole in the wall in final doom any how? i'm fought al the way up to there only to be to stupid to figure this out. :(

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MaximusNukeage said:
how exactly do you beeat that final green room, where you have to fire into that hole in the wall in final doom any how?


That's one of the funniest secrets in the history of DooM! (Well, I liked it anyway. I guess you have to have a certain kind of humour to enjoy it...)

It's explained (with a demo as well) here.

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Yes, savegames in vanilla DOOM II (or in any lack-luster port that doesn't fix it) will crash on reload if any boss shooter is active. The problem is that the boss shooter init'd it's spots when it woke up, and then just assumed they were valid from then on. So as soon as it tries to shoot a cube, the venetian blinds of death will close.

BOOM fixed this by removing the limit on spawn spots and making them be initialized once at level startup, instead of once per boss brain awakening. There's no way a boss shooter could try to use the targets without them existing first under that system :->

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Quasar said:

Yes, savegames in vanilla DOOM II...


I read this "vanilla doom" a lot of times now. At first I assumed it to be a port, but finally came to the conclusion that "the original doom.exe" was meant. I am no native speaker, so is this some slang for something "original/old" or what?

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