Saddam Hussein has been captured!

[Grimm]

Well, I don't see any injustice being done, and therefore lies the crux of our problem, I guess.

[fodders]

"High Value Target" George W Bush was found caught in a dirt- tunnel hideout, 20 feet beneath the White House, 8 months after his defeat in the 2004 Presidential elections.

"Troops clear the opening of the tunnel, revealing a vertical shaft about 2m deep. They discovered George W. Bush, sitting in the bottom of the tunnel cradling a pistol in his lap. When asked who he was, he reportedly replied "George Dubya"

[Ultraviolet]

BAHAHAHA!

[Sharessa]

OWNED

Hey, maybe he will tell where he is hiding his weapons of mass destruction.

[Ultraviolet]

the_Danarchist said:

Hey, maybe he will tell where he is hiding his weapons of mass destruction.

Cheyenne Mountain, etc?

[Ralphis]

Lockbox

[Scabbed Angel]

fodders said:

Funny shit

ROLF!

[Scuba Steve]

Grimm said:

Don't be stupiud. You can't rip somone out of a political office. They have an important job to do. If other people with jobs that affect of lot of people are treated the same way, then it makes sense. Unfortunently what it comes down to is, "Who won't be missed?" Sad, cruel, but that's war.

I didn't say they were taking people already in congress out of office to fight, I was reffering to their children. People over 25 are exempt from the draft eg: Senators and cogressmen. Their CHILDREN however, are NOT exempt. If the Father who worked at the steel mill had to watch his son die in Vietnam, so too Should George Bush Sr. seen his son off to Vietnam. The draft SHOULD NOT play favorites but it does.

Did I hear this right!?!:
Unfortunently what it comes down to is, "Who won't be missed?"

Excuse me? "Who won't be missed"? This might possibly be the only statement made on Doomworld I might be offended by. Are you insinuating that The Bush Duaghters are MORE important the I AM !?!? Excuse me, but for a patriotic American such as yourself this should contradict everything that you hold dear. I can' believe what I'm hearing...

The Declaration of Independence reads:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

According to one of the documents this country is founded on, NO MAN (or woman for that matter) IS GREATER THAN ANY OTHER! President George W. Bush is no more important than David W. Browning and by extention their children are also no more important than each other. To eliminate anyone eligible for the draft is to be unconstitutional and immoral.

I understand that that women are inelligible, I don't have a serious problem with this, but I'm merely stating a high profile child's name in contrast to my own.

[Scuba Steve]

Grimm said:

Don't be stupiud.

Oh and, heh.

[Disorder]

Saddam was held by Kurdish forces, drugged and left for US troops

Saddam Hussein was captured by US troops only after he had been taken prisoner by Kurdish forces, drugged and abandoned ready for American soldiers to recover him, a British Sunday newspaper said.

Saddam came into the hands of the Kurdish Patriotic Front after being betrayed to the group by a member of the al-Jabour tribe, whose daughter had been raped by Saddam's son Uday, leading to a blood feud, reported the Sunday Express, which quoted an unnamed senior British military intelligence officer.

The newspaper said the full story of events leading up to the ousted Iraqi president's capture on December 13 near his hometown of Tikrit in northern Iraq (news - web sites), "exposes the version peddled by American spin doctors as incomplete".

A former Iraqi intelligence officer, whom the Express did not name, told the paper that Saddam was held prisoner by a leader of the Kurdish Patriotic Front, which fought alongside US forces during the Iraq war, until he negotiated a deal.

The deal apparently involved the group gaining political advantage in the region.

An unnamed Western intelligence source in the Middle East told the Express: "Saddam was not captured as a result of any American or British intelligence. We knew that someone would eventually take their revenge, it was just a matter of time."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1514&e=2&u=/afp/iraq_saddam_britain

[Grimm]

Ah, making fun of typos. A time-honored tradition I don't think will ever die.

Come on, you think anyone believed that "All men are created equal" line even when it was being written? Why don't you ask of the slaves who were working plantations when the line was thought up? That line has always been bullshit, and anyone who thinks otherwise needs to stop being so damn foolishly idealistic.

As for "Who won't be missed?", what I mean is this: If you can draft either a man who is the boss of 1000 people, or one of his workers on the bottom of the chain, whose removal will have less of an effect? It's harsh to think of things this way, but life ain't pretty. In any event, I doubt the draft system works like this, so that example is probably pointless.

I didn't know daughters and sons of Congressmen and their ilk are excluded from the draft. That is bullshit. I wonder why? The only reaosn I can think of is perhaps they don't want said officials capacity being affected by the emotional disturbance of one of their offsrping being drafted.

By the way, I ain't a patriot. I don't think America is the best; it's culture and its corporate dominance sicken me. I stopped buying the the patriot's lofty ideals long ago. I do recognize, however, that I have a contract with America, and I will fulfill it if I have to.

Finally, you're absolutely right on what a real man is.

[Scuba Steve]

Grimm said:

Come on, you think anyone believed that "All men are created equal" line even when it was being written? Why don't you ask of the slaves who were working plantations when the line was thought up? That line has always been bullshit, and anyone who thinks otherwise needs to stop being so damn foolishly idealistic.

You think the idea that all men are equal is bullshit? It is obvious to us now that "All men are created Equal" meant "All White MEN" are equal. HOWEVER today we re-interpret the constitution to mean that Women, Asians, blacks and any race are equal. Changing the constitution to accomodate newer times and social change is what people do. To just say "That's the way it is" or "foolishly idealistic" is to throw the problem away and say "I don't want to deal with this, it's not my problem". Well... it is your problem, and my problem. Did African Americans get their rights because they were tired of being lynched and and had some hungry strikes and rallys? No, it required the work of everyone, whites too. White people had to change to realize that People of colour are equal to them. African Americans are still mistreated today because people don't want to believe that there is still mistreatment, and think that everything was fixed in the 60s with Martin Luthor King.

As for "Who won't be missed?", what I mean is this: If you can draft either a man who is the boss of 1000 people, or one of his workers on the bottom of the chain, whose removal will have less of an effect? It's harsh to think of things this way, but life ain't pretty. In any event, I doubt the draft system works like this, so that example is probably pointless.

Again, the man who manages 1000 people is no more important than the man at the bottom who is being managed. Why were unions invented? Why do people strike? To make sure that these people on the bottom rung are as equally represented as the people at the top. I'm not advocating communism here, but in certain inaleable rights, like the right to life, no man's life is worth more than that of another. If you, Grimm, can be sent to war, so can the son of the head of a large corporation. Your life is worth no less than his.

I didn't know daughters and sons of Congressmen and their ilk are excluded from the draft. That is bullshit. I wonder why? The only reaosn I can think of is perhaps they don't want said officials capacity being affected by the emotional disturbance of one of their offsrping being drafted.

When the draft was first introduced in the 1800s, you could get out of the draft by paying $100. Who had that much money? The wealthy of course. It has not changed to this day. How did the president of the united states not end up in Vietnam and "Dissappear" for his term of service? His father was wealthy. Politicians aren't "All important individuals who are doing everything in the well interest of the country" I've met my representative from this county. He's no more important, nor more qualified than most people I've met. Being the President or a senator requires two things, having opinions and making decisions based on those opinions. Nothing that any ordinary individual couldn't do. If the president expects Ordinary working americans to burden the deaths of their children, he should do the same. To expect one man to not let the death of his son not interfere with his life, and not another is wrong.

[Grimm]

Well, no, I think that all people have the same rights, but it's certainly never been that way in this country, and never will be, anywhere. Anyway . . . it's only my problem if I want it to be. I used to worry about all kinds of shit, and it nearly drove me insane. There's only a few ways to change things on a large scale in this world, and I'm not interested spending my life on these things. This ain't to say I ignore problems, but I just don't stress over them anymore.

Of course that person isn't any more important. But it becomes a question of whose removal creates more problems. But like I said, the system doesn't work that way so it don't matter . . .

I don't think they're expecting death not to affect 'em . . . it's just that, at the very least, a distraught president is not a good thing to have. Presidents deal with enough shit to begin with. In any event, you're right, it's surely based on wealth.

[Scuba Steve]

The Point I'm trying to drive home here with you Grimm is that You don't have to stress over these things, sometimes acknoledgement is enough. To say "That's the way it is and how it will stay" is to completely give up. If women had waited for men to give them equal rights, it would never have happened. But you acknoledging these problems will help without you even stressing about them. By knowing that there are equalities with the draft and the power structure exist, makes you a more informed citizen. More informed to vote on cantidates who make choices based on problems you care about and affect everyone. Next election DON'T vote for George Bush. Given all cantidates are pretty sleazy, George Bush's policies will be far more. Do you care about Race equality? Don't vote Bush. Do you care about the Environment? Don't vote bush. Even something as small as voting can have a drastic effect. You won't need to stress out, but you can try to make a difference at even the smallest level.

[Ultraviolet]

Grimm said:

But it becomes a question of whose removal creates more problems.

Have you ever scraped your knee, but kept walking anyway? Each time you'd flex your knee you'd feel the irritation, but it didn't make you go "Dammit, now I am COMPLETELY INCAPABLE OF WALKING." A politician losing a family member isn't something to worry about affecting his job because it is something that all humans are equipped to deal with. If a politician can't make rational decisions because something happened to him that happens to everyone (and especially if a politician can't handle it at his or her age when things like that should have probably already happened to him) then he was not fit to hold office in the first place.

Oh, and rather than bailing out completely, perhaps those politicians could uh, divert their drafted family members into the Army Medical Corps or something dealing with communications within the Air Force? I know that the Commander in Chief, for one, would certainly have that power over even an individual soldier within the armed forces.

[Sharessa]

Grimm said:

Well, no, I think that all people have the same rights, but it's certainly never been that way in this country, and never will be, anywhere. Anyway . . . it's only my problem if I want it to be. I used to worry about all kinds of shit, and it nearly drove me insane. There's only a few ways to change things on a large scale in this world, and I'm not interested spending my life on these things. This ain't to say I ignore problems, but I just don't stress over them anymore.

Of course that person isn't any more important. But it becomes a question of whose removal creates more problems. But like I said, the system doesn't work that way so it don't matter . . .

I don't think they're expecting death not to affect 'em . . . it's just that, at the very least, a distraught president is not a good thing to have. Presidents deal with enough shit to begin with. In any event, you're right, it's surely based on wealth.

What you just said is not only very pessemistic, but also very arrogant and assinine.

I cannot believe anyone would say "it's only my problem if I want it to be" and "anyone who thinks otherwise needs to stop being so damn foolishly idealistic" on the subject of equality. Thats just...well, 'cold-heated' and 'idiotic' are the first things that come to mind.

[Grimm]

I understand, Scuba Steve. That's pretty much where I am. I think either you're misinterpreting what I saying, or I can't write it out well enough . . . probably the latter. :P

A politician losing a family member isn't something to worry about affecting his job because it is something that all humans are equipped to deal with. If a politician can't make rational decisions because something happened to him that happens to everyone (and especially if a politician can't handle it at his or her age when things like that should have probably already happened to him) then he was not fit to hold office in the first place.

Bullshit. Losing a family member isn't always something you can just shrug off. Being president is a high-stress job to begin with. Anything else, natural death included, is something you'd want to avoid. Also, just as something to note, the offspring of a president would be at pretty high risk, don't you think? The media would certainly jump on the event of a president's son or daughter getting drafted, and if he or she was put in active service . . . well, if you were on the other side, wouldn't you want to take down the prez's son? It would end up putting the rest of the group of said offspring was at risk as well. I think you put forth the best option, though. Purtting them in communications or somesuch would serve the country and keep all the people involved in realatively good shape.

Arrogant, assinine, pessimistic--all realative. For the record, I do care about equality, but maybe I'm just tired of getting worked up over it, the way you do.

[Ultraviolet]

Grimm said:

Bullshit. Losing a family member isn't always something you can just shrug off.

That's not what I was saying. I was saying a politician can deal with it just the same as anybody else.

[Sharessa]

Grimm said:

Arrogant, assinine, pessimistic--all realative. For the record, I do care about equality, but maybe I'm just tired of getting worked up over it, the way you do.

Yeah, I do get worked up about it, I have reason to! It is a serious issue!

[Grimm]

Well, the problem is that they might go do something stupid because they're distraught. If a president's son or daughter gets blown away in some war, said president might be disposed against the "bad guys". Now that I think about it though, I suppose there's not much room for knee-jerk reactions in this case. Still, it's best to keep our lawmakers and decision makers in the best frame of mind as possible, don't you think? They're generally stupid enough as it is . . .

[Ultraviolet]

Grimm said:

Well, the problem is that they might go do something stupid because they're distraught. If a president's son or daughter gets blown away in some war, said president might be disposed against the "bad guys". Now that I think about it though, I suppose there's not much room for knee-jerk reactions in this case. Still, it's best to keep our lawmakers and decision makers in the best frame of mind as possible, don't you think? They're generally stupid enough as it is . . .

Heh, once again, if they can't handle it they shouldn't be in the business.

I think prior civil or military service should be a prerequesite to holding any government office. People should have to prove themselves, not just be rich, be able to bullshit millions of people, and get voted in and change the country to suit their economic interests.

[Scabbed Angel]

Wasn't Georgie whining at some point that Saddam tried to kill his father?

[Grimm]

Military service? What's that got to do with anything?

[Scuba Steve]

Well.. for one, it's easier to listen to someone when they know what they're going to put you through.

Who would you rather hear tell you not to do drugs... a drug addict who tells you how drugs ruined his life, or the head of the student council who's never done drugs but say's you shouldn't.

Same for military service. If Gerorge W Bush HAD served in the military, it would be easier to take orders from him (Despite being the commander in chief already) because you realize he know's what it's like. Also, he would think twice, knowing what they will face.

[Grimm]

Good points. Shouldn't be a requirement, though.

[Ultraviolet]

People should be willing to demonstrate a willingness to serve on any level -- military or civil service -- before they are trusted with leadership. It is a trust issue. It's not about not wanting to take orders from some rich boy, it's about filtering out power-hungry greedy bastards. I have never heard of a politician gaining people's trust aside from making empty promises just to get elected.

[fodders]

Scuba Steve said:

If Gerorge W Bush HAD served in the military, it would be easier to take orders from him (Despite being the commander in chief already) because you realize he know's what it's like. Also, he would think twice, knowing what they will face.

He WAS in the military, although there's questions about his posting and lack of service.Guy's a pilot.

[deathbringer]

Dubya: My fellow umbrella stands, now that we have sadarm in captification, there is a very important procurement which we must now carry out...its my turn to hide!

Saddam: Oh god, do i really have to wait till july for my execution?

======

Saddam: 97, 98, 99, 100...coming, ready or not *pulls down a bulging, giggling american flag to reveal dubya*

Dubya: Darn, ya found me, okay, its your turn to hide again *saddam looks at him in disbelief*

Dubya: 1, 11...

Saddam: *Runs away*

[Grimm]

It's near impossible to survive in politics without becoming part of the system, in case you haven't noticed. If we filtered out all the power-hungry or insincere people, there'd be no one running the country.

[Ultraviolet]

Grimm said:

It's near impossible to survive in politics without becoming part of the system, in case you haven't noticed. If we filtered out all the power-hungry or insincere people, there'd be no one running the country.

AND SOMEBODY GENUINELY INTERESTED IN SERVING THE COUNTRY WOULD STEP UP.