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Arioch

Hell Revealed, Again

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the only problem I have about hr2 is that for some reason plut2 map03(I think) is in this wad. Otherwise the megawad is excellent.

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That level with all the lights that suddenly were turned on was very cool. So was the rest. Now I'm going to eat some food while playing it again. and again.

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Anyone notice a serious flaw in the game graphics? Not the levels, but the menu grpahics. The Options/Save Game/Load Game are all in the wrong place. So far I managed to overwrite saves and load when I wanted to save.

Bad. Very bad. I can't believe they would make a mistake like that... unless it's just Zdoom which is fucked up....

EDIT: okay I just tried HR2 in Doom95 and its fine. Wtf?
So then I thought maybe its Zdoom, so I load up Zdoom without any external wads and its fine.

Why is it only when I load HR2 into Zdoom that the grahpics are messed up?

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hr2's menu is ridiculous. it uses m_doom for the whole menu, rather than a seperate image for each thing on the list, hence it fucks up royally in source ports with modified menus (eternity in particular hates hr2's menu). did no one test this wad in a source port or what? O_o

as for the levels, i've played up to map16 and i have to say it's the best coop i've yet seen (especially chroz's maps!). even though there's a lot of spots where stuff closes off after you enter and forces you to either restart the map or skip it.. wish it had got more testing for stuff like that. thankfully some maps work rather excellently and without problems (map32 being a good example). i'd rather hang myself than play this in single player though. then again i have trouble playing any megawad single player.

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Alien Vendetta had the same kind of menu until the second release. I too wiped out my saves a few times. Plus it's damn hard to even see what the menus say.

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Fredrik said:

Remove M_DOOM from the WAD. Problem solved.

You shouldn't have to.

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Fredrik said:

Writing a post about it takes longer time.

Um, just because something is easy to fix doesn't mean it should come broken. Plus you lose the menu header if you do it that way.

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Real authors still make wads for the real game.
port support of any kind is just gravy.
besides, if there is something that a port cannot do that DOOM can, then I'd say the port is broken.
this is still DOOMworld.com, not ZDOOMworld.com.
sorry about my negative tone, but if you get a port specific wad, then you play it with that port, right? this is just designed for the real game, that's all.
This wad was worth the wait. :)

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I can't even run the original game EXE, and as far as I know, it's the only version with that menu layout. Even PRBoom's is shuffled a bit. It's not that the port can't do something the original can, it's just different. At this point, people should assume Doom2.exe is not going to be the primary EXE used to play the WAD, even if you do wish to make it fully doom2.exe compatible.

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Opulent said:

if there is something that a port cannot do that DOOM can, then I'd say the port is broken.

Help! Boom/PrBoom/ZDoom/Eternity/Foobar is broken! It won't VPO!

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Fredrik said:

Help! Boom/PrBoom/ZDoom/Eternity/Foobar is broken! It won't VPO!

LOL
and what the heck is foobar? :')

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About the menu, I noticed a couple problems with it early on. For one, the lowest parts of the graphic stick in the Status Bar. Also, the arrow never seems to be properly centered. Fixing either of those would require reworking the entire thing. Since my 2D art skills are next to zero, I left it.

As for the improper ordering, BooM/MBF have an option to use DooM's main menu ordering; turn it on and everything works fine. If ZDooM and Eternity don't have that option you have three choices: use the shortcut keys, remember the different ordering, or use a different port. Techinically, HR2 isn't the problem since it was intended for v1.9. :-)

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Kick Ass Job Andy and Team,

Thanks for taking the reins and bringing this killer level set to life... Chroz would be happy with the way his baby turned out!! As Opulent said... "Well Worth the Wait"!!!

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Opulent said:

if there is something that a port cannot do that DOOM can, then I'd say the port is broken.

not in this case. hr2 uses a crude hack of sorts in that the m_doom graphic normally meant as a header is used for the entire menu and the normal menu options are made transparent. i would hardly call any port "broken" because it has a different menu layout than the original.

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Just go tell Randy Heit or whoever to add a DOOM menu option; I bet adding a couple lines of code is much less work than redoing the menu graphics (I remember redoing the AV graphics, and these seem more complex, too.) You can't expect evey wad to be adapted to every source mod out there, but adding back actual game capabilities to a developing source engine is no big deal.

But actually, you know what, Fredrik's sarcasm aside, it's true that source mods are genuinely broken as ports due to the fact that they don't VPO; you could certainly leave an alternate VPO-friendly option in the code for editing actual DOOM maps.

As for HR2, quite good indeed; I must admit that at the moment I'm playing it on -skill 2. Still, heh, even then it's certiainly harder than the other wad I'm playing on UV at the moment (Icarus.)

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myk said:

But actually, you know what, Fredrik's sarcasm aside, it's true that source mods are genuinely broken as ports due to the fact that they don't VPO; you could certainly leave alternate a VPO-friendly option in the code for editing actual DOOM maps.

eternity has this (might have come from MBF). show_vpo 1 in the console marks spots where a VPO is likely to occur in doom.exe. it's not completely accurate, however, as killough optimized how visplanes are rendered in mbf. as for a doom compatible menu option, that's quite a bit of work just to add support for hacked menus for doom(2).exe wads.

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Opulent said:

Real authors still make wads for the real game. port support of any kind is just gravy.
besides, if there is something that a port cannot do that DOOM can, then I'd say the port is broken.
this is still DOOMworld.com, not ZDOOMworld.com.
sorry about my negative tone, but if you get a port specific wad, then you play it with that port, right? this is just designed for the real game, that's all.


To expect everyone to play this with the original exe these days is just foolish. It's basically incompatible with modern systems. And even if I could run it I wouldn't. I've got a 19 inch monitor, and 320x200 resolution looks like ass.

The horrible menu is not the port maker's fault, it's a lack of foresight from the designers, plain and simple. If they'd stuck to the original method of putting the menu together as dictated by the original executable, there would be no problems. It might not look 100% right, but at least the damn thing would actually work.

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I'd be perfectly happy to play HR2 in the original executable except XP has severe problems with sound that makes it unplayable. And I do actually make vanilla-compatible wads, even if that does mean having to test without sound to ensure there is no VPOs. But HR2's menu is not done properly, and that sloppiness is just made obvious by source ports.

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To expect everyone to play this with the original exe these days is just foolish.

I know, but the port I was using didn't have any problems with it. In fact, in PRBoom it actually looks better than in v1.9.

If they'd stuck to the original method of putting the menu together as dictated by the original executable, there would be no problems.

If it's any consolation, I agree. It was done wrong from the beginning. Unfortunately, nobody even noticed it until now and, to be honest, if the menu not working in select ports is the only problem you guys can find I consider the release a complete success. :-)

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Joel: I hear you guys, really I do. If this was PlutoniaII then I'd agree... but this is HR2, made by players(Compet-n level players) for players. It's not meant for ports (besides Eternity and PrBoom, I guess).
and, yeah, I see how it is not 'correctly' added.
SargeBaldy: then you have a poor OS. just kidding!
actually, it is not Microsoft's fault(or at least not directly), it is the sound card manufacturers not making compatible drivers.
Edit: oops, I see Andy's replied already...
glad to see so many people playing it.

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well i DID see a couple misalignments :P but really, it's not a minor error if you're using eternity. it borks out terribly on there. actually i might just make you a new doom standards menu, just because it's really irritating me.

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Why did Randy move the position of "Options" from under "New game" to above "Quit game" anyway?

Anyway, awesome job guys! HR2 rocks! :) I'm up to map14 now and loving every bit of it.

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Andy Olivera said:

If it's any consolation, I agree. It was done wrong from the beginning. Unfortunately, nobody even noticed it until now and, to be honest, if the menu not working in select ports is the only problem you guys can find I consider the release a complete success. :-)


Actually, there is another problem I found: In one of the early levels (5 or so, I can check which one exactly), I got stuck after being blown away by a couple of arch-viles (see the screenshot below), and had to turn no no clipping mode to get back to a saner (in technical terms, at least :)) place.

The screenshot is here: http://gl00on.net/DOOM0006.png

I'm not sure this can happen if you're not in god mode, as I was, since then you'd probably be killed by the viles' blasts, but it think it's worth being mentioned nonetheless.

This is in ZDoom 2.0.60, btw.

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