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Deathdust

Excessively detailed maps..

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I'm new so sorry if this has been asked/done before - What do you think the most highly detailed maps ever are. I'd like to play maps that either push my machine by their detail or at least are biting at the vis_plane limit - if that's even a problem anymore.

Please?

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Vrack 3 is definately one of the most detailed maps ever, but you will need a source port like Boom or Zdoom to run it. The visplane overflow isn't a problem for a long time anymore.

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NiGHTMARE said:

Check out the Gothic DM series for highly detailed maps that still work in the original .exe.

Alien Vendetta beats that

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I never said they were the most detailed maps that still work in the original .exe.

In any event, the detail level in the vast majority of the AV maps doesn't even come close to Gothic. That isn't a bad thing of course, as AV was designed for playing, not looking.

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I didn't pay much attention to Gothic so I can't say much about it. If I can remember correctly, the major thing which makes Gothic looking detailed is the additional textures, but of course Gothic's got a few special oldschool mapping tricks in some of the levels that make it good.

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999cop said:

Alien Vendetta beats that



Alien Vendetta might beat GothicDM (though Alien Vendetta has more variation in detail level in each level).

Alien Vendetta is probably on par with most of Gothic2 (though Gothic2 has it's moments).

Gothic99 owns them all in respect to extreme detail.

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Of the ones mentioned here only Gothic2, Gothic99 and P:AR have excessive detailing. I'm answering to the thread's title more than to the initial post's body/subject, as they aren't the same. Lots of detailing one way or another, is one thing, excessive is when it can be pointed out as a problem.

Actually Gothic99 is simply Gothic2 without limits, but it still uses the same style and I don't see how it is more detailed than P:AR. Maybe it's more consistent in the overall level of detailing (well, at least if we leave the forum sausage's map out), but it doesn't use as many detailing techniques as P:AR does and doesn't have as much variation. Both Gothic2 and Gothic99 don't abuse detailing to the point it starts to conflict with DOOM's graphics and 2D limits, but they do have playability issues due to their drabness, low light levels, and excess of small scale sector variety.

Vrack2 and 3 have an overall style that in some ways is like the Gothics', but they don't generally suffer from spacial and lighting issues (including the texture shades used.)

P:AR can be praised for the incredible amout of work it must have taken to complete, for the technical Doom/Boom knowledge behind its making, and for going as far as you can in the attempt to render DOOM's first episode from a strictly realistic perspective, but it suffers greatly in practice as some of the effects used seems flimsy or papery or silly, and because the jumbled detailing gets in the way of play and the combination of variety in certain sections often give the same impression as crappy texturing; simply because DOOM's low graphics resolutions (everything is pixelated) starts to look ugly if you give a map too much small scale detail. It would certainly have worked out much, much better using slopes (ZDoom or something.)

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NiGHTMARE said:

I never said they were the most detailed maps that still work in the original .exe.

In any event, the detail level in the vast majority of the AV maps doesn't even come close to Gothic. That isn't a bad thing of course, as AV was designed for playing, not looking.


True, there's some great looking maps in AV (Anders and Kim's mostly) but it doesn't push the engine as much as the gothic series. My maps are very basic, I only encountered two HOM's when building them.

There's some very big port based levels that thrash it for detail, the vrack series, PAR etc

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I don't understand how anyone can even make maps as detailed as the ones in AV or GothicDM1/2 that still work in Doom2.exe

Must be one hell of a pain in the ass.

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Szymanski said:
True, there's some great looking maps in AV (Anders and Kim's mostly) but it doesn't push the engine as much as the gothic series. My maps are very basic, I only encountered two HOM's when building them.

Yeah, only Mutator really pushed the engine limits to the edge, and especially on Map20 and after the second release (when he added stuff to some maps, like Map01 and Map03.) Most other maps may be large, but they stick to (well designed) Doom standards.

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AgentSpork said:

I don't understand how anyone can even make maps as detailed as the ones in AV or GothicDM1/2 that still work in Doom2.exe

Must be one hell of a pain in the ass.


sometimes, but you can judge early on whats going to cause problems with a bit of practice. There's always something new to catch you out though, I did a speed run style attack on one level and Doom2.exe blew up with the 'no more plats'(to many moving sectors)error.

[EDIT] I suppose the most annoying aspect with the original exe is creating large areas, the larger the area the more time you'll spend checking every corner and angle for HOM and VPO's.

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You also have to look at when these things came out.. I mean.. gothicdm/gothic2 were released long ago, blowing away eveything that had ever been designed before in terms of graphical beauty.. That's an accomplishment that shouldn't be forgotten..

I saw in another thread someone saying that they could whip up e2m9(small secret level, 5 barons..) with their eyes closed.. or in 10 minutes.. My response to that is ok maybe, but could you have done that back in 1992 when the editors were so bad that even making a few sectors was a challenge..

And finally for the record.. in my 'opinion' in terms of detailing.. gothic2 wins hands down over AV.. as someone mentioned above, AV wasn't consistantly detailed comparatively to gothic2 anyway. The AV team's main priority was gameplay, not level beauty, although i'm sure everyone is happy that they retouched all their maps.. Also, gothic2 came out years before AV, strengthening my argument further.

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Fusion said:

could you have done that back in 1992 when the editors were so bad that even making a few sectors could become a nightmare?


Do you know if ID had that problem with their editor/s? Surely they would have programmed decent ones..

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I have nothing against Romero's DOOM-ed(original doom editor), but editors have come so far now compared to it.. i mean.. 3d previews, auto aligning textures.. smart sector/linedef/sidedef splitting.. that didn't exist in 92/93.

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What would you say the best editor atm is? (I know I'm getting off-topic but I plan to start my own excessively detailed level tomoz)

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Fusion said:

I saw in another thread someone saying that they could whip up e2m9(small secret level, 5 barons..) with their eyes closed.. or in 10 minutes.. My response to that is ok maybe, but could you have done that back in 1992 when the editors were so bad that even making a few sectors was a challenge..


No, of couse not. But check the other ultimate doom maps, it could been done better. Just check romero's Ep1(except e1m4/e1m8) or the other old Tom Hall's maps.

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"The AV team's main priority was gameplay, not level beauty"

Actually we tried to combine the two, and I think we succeeded in a few maps and failed in some. Theres more to level beauty than detailing, especially excessive detailing which ends up looking ugly rather fast. IMO several of the plutonia levels are still some of the visually most pleasing around. As I see it the best authors/maps have a way of making simplistic design look great. The work of Szymanski, Casali bros, Soto, the Dystopia authors and obviously Romero comes to mind as examples.

Guess this is slightly off topic tho.

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Gothic99 Map01, Vrack 3, Phobos: Anomaly Reborn, Caverns of Darkness, 10sectors Map26 (last 3 are by Chris Lutz, king of ludicrous detail)

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There are some huge maps in millenium (unreleased). I can't remember how well detailed they were because they ran like crap on my old pc.

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Andy_Johnsen said:

Theres more to level beauty than detailing, especially excessive detailing which ends up looking ugly rather fast.

I strongly agree.

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy_Johnsen said:
Theres more to level beauty than detailing, especially excessive detailing which ends up looking ugly rather fast.

Fredrik said:

I strongly agree.


i strongly agree as well, i wasn't criticizing AV... in my opinion AV is easily the best singleplayer megawad ever.

And my official vote goes to Vrack3.. i haven't seen a map more detailed.

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Alien Vendetta was not excessively detailed. It was just detailed.
The Vrack series on the other hand... they were annoyingly detailed, some parts making my system crawl on all fours... Vrack3, however was not as bad in terms of framerate as 1 & 2...

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Ehrm, Vrack 1 is pretty normal in terms of detail. It was merely an extremely fresh divertion from all those Bricks'n'Metal levels that were common at it's time.

What made Vrack 2 hang at moments was the absolutely huge areas that would be visible at a time.

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