Operation: Lightning demos (and Fragport map29 discussion)

[Donce]

Ok I'll send the demos to you right now. If there is at least one person willing to watch them and make them public I don't see any reasons to resist :)

But beware: total time is nearly 4 hours :)

[The Ultimate DooMer]

Donce said:

Now the funny part. When I read fragport.txt I just then realized that The Ultimate Doomer is the author of Operation: Lightning. Steven, should you have noted this fact in your sig, you'd seen the demos for this wad quite a while ago :) I recorded all 11 maps nearly a year ago and wrote the corresponding textfile but never uploaded them to SDA cause I just thought the demos were too poor. I'll now e-mail you the lmps.

I used to have it on my sig at one time, but I took it off for two reasons:

1. I was running out of space on my sig (in terms of forum guidelines) - it does increase in size when I release something.

2. Most people think the wad is crap anyway. (it was my first, and was built way before I found the community)

btw, what did you record them with?

[Grazza]

OK, I've put the demos here.

Four hours? I'll definitely watch them, but I might use timedemo. :)

UD: They're Doom2.exe demos. Should probably play back with Prboom or Eternity as well as the original game, though I haven't tested them yet. Surely mentioning it in your sig would only add two words, and no extra lines?

And I should probably split this thread...

[The Ultimate DooMer]

You know what's coming next...

They don't work with the version currently on the archives (dated Aug 2003). Luckily I do have the old version (dated Mar 2002) and they run fine - I tested Map 09 on prBoom. And the quality isn't too bad, particularly in the final fight. And 4 hours is a good time too, given it normally takes me 5 hours to play it.

Looks like I'll be putting this version on the archives, too. (given my webspace is a bit crappy. I really ought to get a new website, but I don't think there are many decent free places to go now, if at all)

BTW, is it just the maps that have to stay untouched for demos to work, or the entire wad? (as I might be able to squeeze it onto my webpage if I split it in two)

BTW2: sorry about all this, but I was uneducated about the demo community, and I certainly didn't expect anyone to be recording demos on my wads (they're not exactly popular), so if I decide I need to update, then I do. (particularly if a nasty bug crops up like the one I found in Fragport map 32, hence the recent update of it)

BTW3: I think the recent pointing out of Fragport map 29 as being impossible to record is another example of this - would it mess the current project up if I stuck a full stash of weapons/ammo in at the start and uploaded it again? (I won't touch any other maps)

[myk]

It is the maps. Naturally, if you modified things they could desynch the map (decorations or monsters that get in the way or not, different ammo ammounts, etc.) Otherwise redoing the nodes will certainly affect demos, as well as changing any sector qualities or dimensions. But maps that just had cosmetic texture or flat changes, or you added one or two things that don't affect anything, the demos should be okay. The best way to go would be to make an additional wad with the maps that are different for old demos unless there were so many changes that it would be about the same to just upload the whole old version.

[The Ultimate DooMer]

In which case, I can get away with putting the green key stuff in the old version. I did make some cosmetic improvements (adding detail in some maps) but if I re-do those that don't involve nodebuilding (sector height/flat changes, texture alignments) then at least some of the changes will stay. (not that it matters as the detail sucks anyway)

Unfortunately I ran Zennode on it (cos it's better than WA's internal and makes the file smaller), so all maps would be screwed.

[Grazza]

I have a version where the wad is dated 10-Feb-2002, and I've watched three demos (01, 02 and 09) with that (BTW, what where you thinking with the lighting in map09??) and they played back OK.

As myk says, even very small changes in a map can easily cause demos to desync. Rebuilding the nodes will almost always cause desyncs.

I think it is best just to make the old version available somehow.

Opulent is generally happy to place old versions of wads in his 3ddownloads area (that's one place where you can still find the old version of Alien Vendetta, for instance). Actually I could do that myself, but I'd rather not upload a 1.7 meg wad file without his prior approval. I'm not sure how Ty would react to a request for a "downgrade" to be added to the archive; you'd need to explain the reason, and ask him nicely, I expect.

The Ultimate DooMer said:

BTW3: I think the recent pointing out of Fragport map 29 as being impossible to record is another example of this - would it mess the current project up if I stuck a full stash of weapons/ammo in at the start and uploaded it again? (I won't touch any other maps)

I would suggest a one-map patch, to be added to the command line (-file fragport.wad fragpt29.wad ...). That's how Team TNT handled Evilution map31, and similarly for Requiem map21 (IIRC). [Heh, you could do it by giving the player a few invulnerabilities, so the archies can be killed using their own splash damage (UV Pacifist Max). :) That would make a speedrun a bit too easy though.]

Otherwise it could just be left as a map where there will be no Max demo.

[The Ultimate DooMer]

Grazza said:

I have a version where the wad is dated 10-Feb-2002, and I've watched three demos (01, 02 and 09) with that

You should be ok with that, as I think the only changes I made before March were texturing ones, including map 01. (it should have SFALL in your version, the March one has SLADRIP)

(BTW, what where you thinking with the lighting in map09??)

It was meant to be the inside of a reactor, based on DooM 1 maps I'd played in the past. But I guess I should've stuck to white lighting and not all 6 colours... (and that was in the days when I only had my opinion to go on)

Opulent is generally happy to place old versions of wads in his 3ddownloads area (that's one place where you can still find the old version of Alien Vendetta, for instance). Actually I could do that myself, but I'd rather not upload a 1.7 meg wad file without his prior approval. I'm not sure how Ty would react to a request for a "downgrade" to be added to the archive; you'd need to explain the reason, and ask him nicely, I expect.

I think Opulent's place is the best option here, as demos are the only reason to want the old version for (the newer version has some detail improvements along with better sounds and the green key). Is there an FTP server I can upload to somewhere? (assuming Opulent approves)

[myk]

Yeah.

You could do something like I did when AV was updated; I made a wad with the maps that desynched will any of the old demos. In that case the additional wad ended up being half the size of the complete old wad (which Doug also made available.)

[Grazza]

The Ultimate DooMer said:

I think Opulent's place is the best option here, as demos are the only reason to want the old version for (the newer version has some detail improvements along with better sounds and the green key). Is there an FTP server I can upload to somewhere? (assuming Opulent approves)

It's not a public FTP server, I'm afraid. If you make sure that Opulent or I have the right version (i.e. any on which all of Donce's demos play back correctly), then, if Opulent is happy, one of us will upload it.

[The Ultimate DooMer]

Well, the only way I could get the March 2002 one to you is by splitting it in two, sending it across by email, and you recombining it at the other end. But if the version you have at the moment plays all the demos fine, then just use that.

(after all, if they really want to play it afterwards they might go and get the newer one if they know about it)

[myk]

Actually, you're right Grazza, putting a wad, especially a big one on the FTP wouldn't be a good idea. Just e-mail Opulent (or wait till he sees this.) But it all depends on how lazy you are or not and how many changes there are between the versions. If a maps only wad would be much smaller than the whole old thing, then it'd probably be better to just compile the modified maps. Takes up less space and is thus easier to download and store.

[The Ultimate DooMer]

It wouldn't make much difference to the filesize here, as all the maps were 'altered' (I ran Zennode on the newer version) and the off-level stuff takes up only a small proportion of the wad.

[Grazza]

I can now confirm that the demos all play back OK with the version I have, so it would make sense to upload that.

I also notice that the map11 demo is missing from the zip.

Regarding the lighting in map09, it was probably aggravated by the fact that I was watching it with timedemo, which increased the frequency by about 45%, and may thus have greatly increased the eye-strain it caused.

[Opulent]

please email me with what to upload where. :)
no harm in having an older Fragport.wad version up on here.
as for the demos, I will save these to watch last, cause I know they'll be worth the wait.
edit: uploaded:
http://competn.doom2.net/pub/sda/misc/op-lite2.zip
or
http://www.3ddownloads.com/doomworld/sda/wad/i-o/op-lite2.zip

[Donce]

Finally got up from the sleep and saw quite a discussion going on here.

Ultimate Doomer: the demos were recorded in Jan/Feb 2003 and I missed the fact that there was a new version. Though I had a few complaints about the levels, it definitely was not crap. My first levels were worse.

Grazza: oops, map11 demo is really missing. Will send it to you now.

As for Fragport29, one option would be recording using ipxsetup.exe with -nodes 1 (fake multiplayer) but it only would playback with itself methinks and I can't get it working at all now. There are a few weapons at the very start that have multiplayer flags. Removing the flag would make the weapons appear in single player mode and would be enough to do a max run.

EDIT: for removing a flag for a few things would only change a few bytes so it would be possible to add a small patch if anyone knows how to do that.

[The Ultimate DooMer]

Given that the only change I will be making is to a map that has no demos recorded on it, I should get away with a full update, even if it is a separate map 29 patch for demos only.

(the only problem now is getting it back onto the archive without anyone outside of here finding out, and making me look like a fool for promising I wouldn't update it ever again...)

[Opulent]

I wouldn't upload an older(second) version.
As long as the demo exists online, the wad can exist with it. right?
heck, I've downloaded 30Mb (compressed!) single Halflife demos; even packaging the wad with the lmps isn't out of the question. :)
edit: oops, I'll try to learn to read before speaking next time... sorry about that.

[Grazza]

Donce said:

Grazza: oops, map11 demo is really missing. Will send it to you now.

OK, I have added it to the zip and reuploaded. Dtoplmps.zip now contains all 11 demos.

Opulent: UD's referring to a modified (and new) version of Fragport map29. AFAIK, there haven't been any previous versions of this map where a Max demo would have been feasible. [I split the thread to try to separate the discussion of the two wads, but it seems to have become intertwined again.]

[The Ultimate DooMer]

In case you're wondering why I haven't uploaded the new version yet, it's because I'm waiting for my newstuff next week....

(it will contain a Map 29/30 patch with all weapons, a full stash of ammo and a megasphere at the start of Map 29, and all weapons and a 70% stash of ammo at the start of Map 30)