Dear Shadowrunner

[Job]

Dear Shadowrunner,

Amidst all the joking that has derailed your threads time and again, I'm sure you've experienced a lot of frustration. You're a persistent person, and that's respectable. If there had been a group of only 10 people like you, Rome would have been built in a day. However, all your creative energies keep being diverted into flopping projects. You hop from idea to idea, hoping one of them might live. As I said, your persistence is indeed admirable, but it's the same kind of persistence that can be seen in the incident of Ray Comb's death as he tried to make a whole in the wall by beating his head against it. There have been a handful of Doomers here who have suggested gaining more experience making single maps, then moving on to partial conversions and then on to TCs and megawads. Their words should be heeded. I, for one, would take you a lot more seriously if you actually completed a level and submitted it to /newstuff. I know there's a good, sensible Doomer/mapper inside of you trying to get out -- please prove me right!

Sincerely,
Job

[Erik]

yeah, making megawads yourself is reserved for crazy people... uh... *looks around*

[Doom Marine]

yeah, I heard of this one nut who made scythe....

[Ichor]

...wonders why everyone is staring at him...

Oh yeah, heh. Anyway, when I first began making maps, I started small. A deathmatch here, a deathmatch there. Most of them were not worthy (to me anyway) to be submitted to the archives. Eventually, I decided to make an episode for Heretic. Now, that may seem daunting, but I just worked on one map at a time until all nine were completed. There were no new textures, sounds, or sprites (they were added later), and back then, I had little experience, so the maps were simple looking at best. However, I did gain enough experience to attempt another episode. This one was a lot better, and I even learned how to edit the .exe using HHE (I just used it to change the map names and make the Iron Liches float around like Cacodemons, but nothing fancy). As I gained more and more experience, my maps were better and better looking. My latest completed map was the Crypts remake for Heretic, and I'm almost finished with the second hub for my Hexen project. It took many years or tedious work and trial and error to get to this point, and even now, I learning new things.

It's certainly possible to create a megawad by yourself if you have the free time and the patience (and it will require a ton of both), but if you don't have much experience, it probably won't look all that great. The best way to go about this project is to produce a series of maps instead of a megawad. That way you can concentrate more on a single map instead of worrying about finishing a megawad. And even if you only make it halfway through, you'll still have those maps already completed to show for it.

[Erik]

I agree, the optimal course of events imo to get good at editing:

Make 10-15 single maps, don't release the first 5 unless you are want to hear a lot of negative feedback.

During the course of mapping, look at other people's work, both in an editor and in game to see what stuff they used to make it look good, start with simple maps like mm.wad or so and then move up until you feel that you can make stuff worthy of darkening2 or the classic episode =).

After you got this experience, you should be good enough to make maps which consistently look good and thus it can be time to start up some project like an episode or just a huge-ass map.

[The Ultimate DooMer]

I started out with simple things like changing map names (E1M1 -> anything else), making maps harder, fixing bugs etc. then I decided to create a boss map for an episode I compiled from single maps. So I pieced 4 rooms from other wads together and stuck an outdoor arena with 4 cybers in. Did a couple more of those, each relying on less rippage than the previous one.

Then I built a DooM 1 episode called Operation: Lightning (E2M1-8, which featured the 4-cyber arena I made) and sometime later (after making a big map based on a certain TV show) converted it to DooM 2 and stuck 3 more maps in. Then came that realistic-themed megawad (where the big map ended up as 32), then the release (after I hit on the idea), the reviews etc. so I decided to touch OL up a bit and release it to the public (to a less-than-warm reception). It's been one project after another since.

Ichor said:

I had little experience, so the maps were simple looking at best.

But those maps were quality, especially in the gameplay (tough Heretic episodes are tough to come by). And they weren't that bad in the looks department, not to me anyway (but then I don't need excessive levels of detail to praise maps for their looks).

[Job]

You guys seem to be able to pump out wads pretty rapidly. How do you do it? I usually spend so much time selecting the right textures and heights, etc that I can spend a good 20 minutes in just one room, minimum. I think the wad I made the fastest, E1Style, took over a week to make, and it wasn't that long. Granted, I wasn't that good at editing then and was still learning, but it did take a while. Do you guys have any secrets or tips on making good levels faster?

[zark]

Job said:

You guys seem to be able to pump out wads pretty rapidly. How do you do it? I usually spend so much time selecting the right textures and heights, etc that I can spend a good 20 minutes in just one room, minimum. I think the wad I made the fastest, E1Style, took over a week to make, and it wasn't that long. Granted, I wasn't that good at editing then and was still learning, but it did take a while. Do you guys have any secrets or tips on making good levels faster?

I have the same problem, levels take me ages to do. Mind you, I'm a bit of a perfectionist, so if something doesn't look 99% right, I spend time fixing it.

[Ichor]

Same here, except real life gets in the way sometimes.

[Szymanski]

Erik said:

Make 10-15 single maps, don't release the first 5 unless you are want to hear a lot of negative feedback.

LOL, I've only managed 10 myself. But Erik's right about learning how to map. Experiment and play around with ideas, it's the best way to learn Dooms limitations.

Also have your map playtested by someone who's made maps before, they'll often know better solutions, find problems and advise with the design. And if your map is really good you might get invited onto a project, it does happen.

[Anders]

Erik is the slowest mapper i know, he's been working on a wad for over a month, and has only done a little more then a third of it so far.

[ShadowRunner]

(Looks around to make sure hes not gonna get flamed)
Ok,You know what ur right.I will make a map to prove you guys im good at mapping.
The Theme shall be somewhat of hell with some good stuff.Doom2 only.
Gimme a Couple of days to get it done and ill submit it to newstuff.

[Erik]

yeah I suck :/ Will try to make some shit this weekend. Woohooo, no more exam hanging over my head!

[Fletcher`]

Heh, I've been editing for seven years, and I've yet to release more than 5 maps. :P (that'll change to 6 soon.)

When I release my latest level, I'll also release my very first map as well. (separately of course. :P )

[Szymanski]

Anders said:

Erik is the slowest mapper i know

1 year between AV re-release and Endgame :(

[Job]

ravage said:

Heh, I've been editing for seven years, and I've yet to release more than 5 maps. :P (that'll change to 6 soon. :) )

Heh, yeah, I keep screwing around...I make a bunch of stuff that never gets finished or released because my attention span is as long as my dick.

[EarthQuake]

20 minutes on a room is nothing for me. I've spent 80+ hours on just one medium-sized level. No one said perfection comes quickly.

Damn, that must be my character flaw... I'm a perfectionist.

[ReX]

Job said:

I usually spend so much time selecting the right textures and heights, etc that I can spend a good 20 minutes in just one room, minimum.

There have been rooms that have taken me several hours to make (usually spread over a few days). Granted they have been large and somewhat detailed rooms, but even a small room or corridor can take me upwards of an hour to create. A part of my problem is that I frequently play my map-in-progress to make sure I made the right sector, texture, flat, and lighting choices. I also take care of alignment right when a room or area is done, and then check the alignment in-game. All of this adds to the development time.

All in all, I'd make a shitty speed-mapper.

[Ichor]

If you made enough maps, you could just throw a few sectors and rooms together from some old ones, change them around a bit and fix any errors, and you'd be done in no time; perfect for speedmapping.

But that would be cheating, I guess.

[Cyb]

haha Rex, I map the same way almost, though most of my maps are made in a pretty short span of time I usually work on them quite a lot in that time (sometimes for an entire day at a time) and I pretty much run the map after every couple of sectors to check stuff... I did a few speedmapping thingies and the first time I did one I had like part of the start area done before I realized I had like 20 mins left and I rushed through the rest of the map (which was really short). I got a little better at it subsequent times, though that one time I ran speedmapping I actually extended the time allowed from 100 to around 130 mins because I couldn't finish my map in time :P (even though everyone else did)

[Job]

ReX said:

There have been rooms that have taken me several hours to make (usually spread over a few days). Granted they have been large and somewhat detailed rooms, but even a small room or corridor can take me upwards of an hour to create. A part of my problem is that I frequently play my map-in-progress to make sure I made the right sector, texture, flat, and lighting choices. I also take care of alignment right when a room or area is done, and then check the alignment in-game. All of this adds to the development time.

All in all, I'd make a shitty speed-mapper.

Yeah, that's another thing. Frequent map-testing and fatal or very counter-productive editor errors also take their toll on me.

[The Ultimate DooMer]

But speedmapping doesn't need texture alignment or anything like that.

Job said:

Do you guys have any secrets or tips on making good levels faster?

Know your editor.

Use as many time-saving tricks as possible (that's windows tricks as well as editor tricks).

Know your map before you build it - ie. have a blueprint of it first, so you don't spend ages working out what to put in the map (fairly accurate, but not down to every last detail. Usually a room and it's basic contents like furniture etc. but not refined detail and sectors, scenery etc.) Any key ideas (heh) are worth having on there, too. (both mechanistic and gameplay)


Those help me build maps quicker, but of course that's just me. (and I build realistic and strongly-themed maps most of the time, so the drawing thing helps a lot more there)

[Grazza]

ShadowRunner said:

Gimme a Couple of days to get it done and ill submit it to newstuff.

I'd suggest not setting yourself a time-limit. Just work on your map, and when you're happy with it, and feel it is a good map that plays well, submit it.

A good map next week (or next month) is far preferable to a bad map this week. And I'm not just saying that because I'm doing the /newstuff reviews this week. :p

[Searcher]

Even after 7 plus years of mapping it still takes me a long time to get one out. Most of my medium size levels take me about 100 to 120 hours to complete. by that time I have made hundreds of runs in there to look it over and try it out.

Then I question myself about the texture choices and make final runs to check every alignment. My maps are not known for beautiful eye candy but they play pretty well.

So don't sweat how long it takes, just do the best you can do at the time. I think most people can live with a little less eyecandy if the maps play well, and at least look decent. Strive for at least a 'B" grade map. Save the "A" grade for when you have months to complete them. Practice and knowledge of your editor is what makes guys like Erik and a few others able to seemingly just throw them together and have them come out just great. I admire those guys for that. If I tried it they would be crap.

Then playtest, playtest, playtest. Then get one or two people who you respect to playtest again on every port you have. After needed fixes... Then you release it.

[ShadowRunner]

Actually to be honest,Hell is the hardest theme for me to map heh.
I Think ill pass that off and do a tech level thatll be featured in G.O.D,Which will be time spent,and maybe submitted to /newstuff.

[Ichor]

Tech maps are the hardest for me for some reason. I like the medieval, Hell maps more. Cavern maps are the easiest of all of them, but they don't leave all that much to the imagination (just rocks and maybe some water or lava in places), so I don't like to make very many of them.

[netnomad312]

Erik said:

yeah, making megawads yourself is reserved for crazy people... uh... *looks around*

*Cough*

zarkyb said:

I have the same problem, levels take me ages to do. Mind you, I'm a bit of a perfectionist, so if something doesn't look 99% right, I spend time fixing it.

You know what's funny? Sometimes I with I were a perfectionist... then I'd spend more time on detail than I do now. It's still my biggest flaw. :-/

The Ultimate DooMer said:

Know your editor.

Use as many time-saving tricks as possible (that's windows tricks as well as editor tricks).

Check... and, uh, check.

The Ultimate DooMer said:

Know your map before you build it - ie. have a blueprint of it first, so you don't spend ages working out what to put in the map (fairly accurate, but not down to every last detail. Usually a room and it's basic contents like furniture etc. but not refined detail and sectors, scenery etc.) Any key ideas (heh) are worth having on there, too. (both mechanistic and gameplay)

Heh, I do have a habit of building without knowing exactly what I want. Sometimes ideas just come to me when I look at the level and say, "well these two parts could link up like this" or something... it's when that doesn't happen that I start to worry that the level might suck.

ShadowRunner said:

Actually to be honest,Hell is the hardest theme for me to map heh.

Heh, same here. I've made one or two hell maps, and they both sucked badly. Far too badly for /newstuff. I've released... eh, seven maps. One was a rather basic library-motif level that got a sucky review from Ling because I think he was using a GL port (and I didn't know what the hell nodes even were back then). The other six were in the one wad, a demo of the megawad I'm making (I'm still working on it BTW). The demo had all tech and office maps. That hasn't changed much since, although I'm not as much of a n00b anymore and the maps don't suck quite so badly (and the later ones are bigger). I've only put one non-building map in there, and that would be the 24th, which is a cave/temple level built into the mountain you're supposodly on. In the story I wrote, hellish maps just wouldn't fit...

[Amaster]

Ichor said:

Cavern maps are the easiest of all of them, but they don't leave all that much to the imagination (just rocks and maybe some water or lava in places), so I don't like to make very many of them.

I'd have to disagree with you there. I find that one of the hardest things to do in doom is making things that look random and chaotic, like rock formations and such. I'd say gothic maps are the easiest. At least in my experience.

[Ichor]

Cavern maps do have the advantage of not needing any textures aligned though. In fact, aligning all the rock textures may actually make the map look worse in places.

[sargebaldy]

Ichor said:

Cavern maps do have the advantage of not needing any textures aligned though. In fact, aligning all the rock textures may actually make the map look worse in places.

i align them myself, i even change the textures to stone2 first so i know they're aligned perfectly.