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Cyb

mapping speedrunning tricks/dynamics

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alright, so I'm making a vanilla (and by vanilla I mean, compatible with any port but not doom2.exe because of that wonderful VPO thing it does) map that's going to be pretty big (right now it has 5500 sidedefs and it has a ways to go... I hope I don't hit the sidedef limit) but I want to put a lot of speedrunning tricks in it that will allow you to skip over some parts. I've watched some demos and there's some pretty neat tricks like straferunning and sneaking through 32-wide gaps and rocket jumps and all that, so anyways I have a couple questions.

First off is there anything anyone would like to see in specific, I can't gaurentee it'll make it in there (though I'm trying for most everything), but yeah, suggestions would be appreciated. None of the tricks will be necessary for completing the map of course, just help you get through it quicker. Also things you don't like can be commented on (except "omg cyb, make it work in doom2.exe!!" because it's too late for that :P )

Second off I have a couple questions about the actual tricks (if you could point me to a webpage about this stuff too that'd be helpful, I can't seem to find one, but answering them here is just as good :P ):

  • how far can a straferunning (both s40 and s50) go if the floors on both sides of the jump are equal?
  • How far does a rocket jump propel you, and I'm pretty sure it shoots you upwards (going by the map07 jump) a little too, so how much there (if any)?
  • is there any special forumla for a bars glide, I tried setting one up before but I couldn't sneak through, do they have to be north/sound or something, or is it just some sort of random oddity that rarely happens?
  • how high up does the player go from an arch-vile attack?
  • how exactly does wallrunning work again... I've had this explained to me before but I always forget... I know it's a specific wall direction, and what's the speed increase you gain from it?
that's all I can think of right now, so yeah, any feedback etc would be great, thanks :)

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A few random comments.

It's always fun to have a suicide exit possible (i.e. the player can kill himself - normally with a rocket - to slide under a barrier and exit). Obviously you should have a non-trick way to exit too.

Why not make a barrel-run-jump possible somewhere (like in Doom2 map23). There a row of barrels allows the player to get a speed boost by running next to them in mid air.

I believe the maximum jump with SR50 (and no boost from wallrunning or a rocket) is 192 units (or 194?).

Rocket jumps don't shoot you upwards. The map07 RJ gives the player a horizontal speed boost. This means that he is in the air for less time, and so has lost less height by the time he reaches the platform.

Wallrunning works along south->north walls. I recall AdamH saying it can as much as double the running speed.

I don't have a figure for the maximum height of an archie jump, but it is much less in Doom2.exe than in Zdoom 2.0.

This page features a listing of many of the tricks in UDoom and Doom2, with some degree of explanation of how many of them work.

Opulent provided some useful stuff in brief here.

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As long as the player is less then 25 units below the target of a jump, he'll make it, this might be what caused confusion regarding map07.

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yeah, I actually didn't realize that the mancubus you rj off of is on the lowered platform and not on the regular ground which was why I thought you went upward (since the exit platform is 32 high and the other plat is 8 when lowered)

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Adam H. is the man to ask these questions... and Grazza certainly covered it already.. but I'll spout off anyway...
Strafe50 can make you go 194 units(although 192 is the safe number if you really expect people to make it -- you must allow for a LITTLE bit of error).
note, you can go about 190 units with strafe40, so it really must be 192.
RJs are hard to define. perhaps watching Map14 and e2m7 demos you can determine how far the player actually travels(I believe Adam once said the farthest possible is around 160 units(or was it 224?)).
I'm sure that is explained with some math in the code.
wall-running is a tough one to count on. the walls must be exactly north/south/east/west. (it is easier to produce north/south)
note, this is true on ANY edge that is exactly north/s/e/w, but is easier to do on a wall than things and on a wall than a linedef.
one thing while testing, you can wall-run AND strafe-run. so don't just test for running because you can get the speed simultaneously from both.
archvile jump: I'd watch some examples. I don't know the height from just one assist. Map14's trick speedruns might lend some insight. (eternity allows camera mode... it's at least 120 units high, I'd say)
glides -- there are 2 kinds. special glide like the grate at the end of Map10, the end of map24.
and 'regular' glides like Map16 or Map22.
Regular ones must be 32-unit wide gap AT A 45degree angle only. this allows for the player to slip through sometimes due to rounding in the code because of the polar coordinates.
You can also be forced through from a rocket blast.
lastly, my 2 cents, I wouldn't make very many troublesome tricks (like a death exit) on a large map. that would just be frustrating to record, or people would opt to skip it after 30 minutes of good playing. but that's just my opinion. :)

oh, one very last note: all of the above only is sure to work with the real game(and eternity/prboom compatibility). distance moving, especially in ports like Zdoom is quite different. an RJ in Zdoom can take you a LONG way for example... not to mention strafe-jumping.

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Opulent said:

wall-running is a tough one to count on. the walls must be exactly north/south/east/west. (it is easier to produce north/south)
note, this is true on ANY edge that is exactly north/s/e/w, but is easier to do on a wall than things and on a wall than a linedef.

OK, now I'm confused. I got the impression from here that wallrunning was a strictly north-south affair, and that thing-running was different because it was a different part of code being used. I also thought that your comment about the polar coordinate system accounted for wallrunning being north-south only (since a polar coordinate system only has one axis, i.e. the line theta = 0 or 2*pi).

I wouldn't make very many troublesome tricks (like a death exit) on a large map. that would just be frustrating to record, or people would opt to skip it after 30 minutes of good playing.

I agree; if the speedrun route is much more than five minutes or so, there shouldn't be a "50 percenter" at the very end of it (or there should be a viable alternative exit strategy).

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not sure, I think it was me that said it could be done at any right angle in the newsgroups.
then a discussion ensued and someone proved that it was all 4.
certainly north/south is more likely... especially mathematically.
(if you build a wad with 4 walls, you'll see that normally you can only wallrun on 2 sides)
What Cyb is intending would take a lot of playtesting probably.

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Cyb said:


I'll try to answer with my best knowledge:


  • how far can a straferunning (both s40 and s50) go if the floors on both sides of the jump are equal?


  • S50 is 194, S40 is 178. For practical purposes, 192 with S50 is hard enough.

  • How far does a rocket jump propel you, and I'm pretty sure it shoots you upwards (going by the map07 jump) a little too, so how much there (if any)?


  • No, it doesn't. It gives more horizontal SPEED. The MAP07 jump is possible at the proper angle and has a minimum needed speed. Try with -turbo and you'll succeed pretty easily.

    Biggest distance with level platforms I've done with RJ is 242, with a wallrunned runup. Largest level RJ in known maps is the MAP24 one after the door, 224 units.

  • is there any special forumla for a bars glide, I tried setting one up before but I couldn't sneak through, do they have to be north/sound or something, or is it just some sort of random oddity that rarely happens?


  • Depends which one you mean.
    There is the squeeze at MAP16 red bars, MAP21 yellow bars, MAP22 bars. They are all similar in the way that a 32 wide space is enough for the player to squeeze through (not reliably, though).
    And there is the more obscure grating glide, present in MAP10, E1M3 and Plutonia MAP07. Seems to be a collision detection bug and needs two walls together slightly less than a right angle (I don't know if it's an exact one or an interval).

  • how high up does the player go from an arch-vile attack?


  • I don't know exactly. In MAP14 there is a 72 unit one which seems close enough.

  • how exactly does wallrunning work again... I've had this explained to me before but I always forget... I know it's a specific wall direction, and what's the speed increase you gain from it?


  • On one-sided linedefs it is south->north. On two-sided linedefs it is south->north and west->east. The barrel row jump in MAP23 is essentially the same as a 2s wall west->east wallrun.

    EDIT: it's also possible to do west->east wallruns on one-sided linedefs. Seems to work rarely. One good area is the outer ring of MAP07. /EDIT

    Some wallrunning is possible on not perfectly angled walls, but the efficiency is less. Speed gain is double at top speed, doesn't mean you'll be able to do double distance jumps, though (the gain is not much, in fact).

    Hope this helps. What I said applies to doom2.exe and whatever has perfect compatibility.

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    excellent, thanks guys :) (oh and of course I'll be testing it with prboom in doom2.exe 1.9 compat mode)

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