Jesus' Existence

[Sharessa]

That's what I was trying to say, but I suck at words. :P

[Fredrik]

Danarchy said:

That's what I was trying to say, but I suck at words. :P

You should just have left out the "agnostics believe in a god" part :P

[Uncle 80]

I beleive Jesus has existed, but I doubt him being the son of God. But he was obviously a great leader and a politician (in the original sense of that word), and after his death he became a legend, much like Elvis or superstars of equal or greater popularity. As for God, I beleive 'it' to be the forces of life and death, nothing more, nothing less.

[sargebaldy]

I try not to believe anything that cannot be proven.

[Fredrik]

sargebaldy said:

I try not to believe anything that cannot be proven.

Nothing can be proven, except mathematics, and mathematical concepts can be proven only if you're willing to accept unprovable axiomatic logic as a foundation.

[Doom-Child]

Grimm said:

Yeah, one-sided debates are always the best.

Not at all. However, I'd like you to note just how much difference your very well thought and well written argument will make towards the general tone of this thread, which is best summarized by Ret's pointless travesty against logic.

Szymanski said:
Sounds like david ike. He now beleives the world is run by jews, who are lizards and eat babies.

A very sensible viewpoint.

DC

[sargebaldy]

Fredrik said:

Nothing can be proven, except mathematics, and mathematical concepts can be proven only if you're willing to accept unprovable axiomatic logic as a foundation.

i only said i try not to. it's not a very attainable goal certainly, but i'm highly skeptical of anything that has very little historical evidence and dates back two milennia.

[Disorder]

Piece_O_Mind said:

If that's what you think, then you're an agnostic, not an atheist :P

No, because I don't believe that such a 'lifeform' could exist. At the same time I'm trying to say that it is foolish to claim you KNOW that something exists or does not exist. I hope I made myself clear now :)

[sargebaldy]

Atheism is a religion and atheists DO claim to know that there is no god. Atheism is as illogical as any other religion because it too is making a claim that cannot be proven one way or the other.

[Cyb]

Grimm: You're still citing things written 30+ years after the death of Christ, which only further proves my point that nothing was written about him during his lifetime. I'm willing to concede that 2000 years ago there may have been a person or persons like him and over the years stories evolved into what's in the bible currently, though it's equally possible Christianity evolved from the notion of a person who never really existed... the power of suggestion goes a long way etc.

The entire basis of religion is the search for answers, dating back to the oldest of ancient religions which had multiple gods; god of the sun, god of the moon, god of war, god of agriculture and so on. They were there because there was no way to explain certain things, and people, curious as we are, wanted to know why certain things happened. Why does the sun move across the sky, well because the sun god pulls it across every day.

It's a whole bunch of self-important high and mighty drivel because in the end it's very hard to cope with that fact that as a single person in the scheme of the entire infinite universe you are just one single person among billions, living on a planet circling one of billions of stars in the galaxy which is one of millions hurtling through the universe. It's an incomprehendable concept really, and so we create humanized higher beings who oversee everything and watch out for each person and all that sort of thing because we don't know the answers to what is unanswerable.

Do I have proof that there is no god? No. But the human desire for knowledge and security is quite enough to convince me that there isn't.

[DooMAD]

sargebaldy said:

Atheism is a religion

That's not what most Atheists would say. The dictionary also disagrees. :)

From YourDictionary.com:

re·li·gion
n.
Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.


a·the·ism
n.

Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
The doctrine that there is no God or gods.

[Fredrik]

DooMAD said:

A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

There, atheism.

Though, indeed, most "atheists" are in fact agnostic atheists.

[DooMAD]

Perhaps, but the two definitions do contradict each other. If religion is a belief in a supernatural power, and atheism is a disbelief, how can atheism be a religion?

[darknation]

It may surprise you to learn that I actually believe in God.

Let's take the following example. 27 Grannies are groveling their way through a hymn on a Sunday, in a church, in the South of France.

Halfway through 'O Come All Ye Faithful' the church roof caves in and tears the entire church down, killing all the grannies and the vicar in one glorious ironic collapse.

Now, what are we to take from this? 1, 2 or 3?

1, that God is indifferent and does not care if a bunch of old ladies got pancaked in His house. If God does not care about that, then God does not care about sin or the church.

2, that God has a very darknation sense of humour and irony, and everything that you are about to say about dn also applies to God.

3, there is no God and the laws of physics scored a massive 2280 points on the 'LOL' scale.

Explain that, douchebags.

[mewse]

you think theists are so ignorant that they aren't aware of human suffering?

[Liam]

dn,

God does not will something like that... i do not think Christians believe that every chance outcome, accident, is their God's will. God gave man free will, a church is a man-built structure, if it collapses on top of 27 grannies that's the fault of a few crappy architects and carpenters or some bad weather, not God.

i'm not a Christian, or even very religious at all, but that line of thinking is just ignorant.

[Hyena]

I will quote what I always say when Religious debates crop up on an internet forum:

Religious debates on the internet are like fistfights in which neither contestant has any arms. No matter how long they last, the only thing accomplished is that the participants become aggravated and exhausted.
This goes for both sides of the argument; It doesn't matter how valid your points are, you're never going to be able to prove yourself right or prove the other wrong. The ideas are more profound, the words are chosen more eloquently, but really, you might as well be trying to prove that Star Trek is better than the Matrix.

[darknation]

If it's not God's will to drop the roof, then why is it not God's will to stop stop shit like that? And not just church roofs, why is this world such a shit hole?

Watch a baby die of Aids and tell it that it's all OK because Jesus loves it while it's kidneys fail and it goes yellow and dies from urine retention.

It's either apathy or malice on His part, so you will excuse me if I don't get all excited or happy about the big beard in the sky.

[sargebaldy]

DooMAD said:

Perhaps, but the two definitions do contradict each other. If religion is a belief in a supernatural power, and atheism is a disbelief, how can atheism be a religion?

because although atheism contradicts that one definition, it does not contradict them all. everything listed under "religion" and everything listed under "atheism" are factual definitions. for something to be a true statement, everything must be true. if anything is not true, it is false, regardless of how many things are true. hopefully that makes some sense, i know i'm confused :P

[Sharessa]

Heh...the reason I am not a Christian is kind of similar to dn's hypothesis. If you are easily offended then you might want to stop reading now. If you are otherwise curious, read on. Basicaly, the world is a shithole. I think we can all agree to this. We have wars, famine, plague, death, and everythign else that likes to ride around on horseback. I try my best to be good to people but I consistantly get shit on. Oh well. Now see, if there truly was a fair and just God, then why do so many good people get fucked, and why are all the evil bastards the ones who get to run things? So I can think of a few possible reasons why:

1. There is no God, and thus it's really pointless to believe in 'Him'. This is the most likely explaination.

2. God has died or has abandonned us, so it is once again pointless to worship it.

3. God is completely apathetic towards humanity and either ignores us or just likes to watch and see what happens. Again, I don't see how worshipping him would do anything here, because he wouldn't care.

4. God hates us all. His omnipotence has made him a raging childlike egomaniac and he likes to play stupid games with us. Such an asshole is undeserving of my worship, so fuck that. If you demand your creation to bow down and constantly sacrifice goats/muslims to you, you have issues. If it's not enough that I'm just nice to everyone I meet to avoid Hellfire, then I might as well go to Hell. I'd hate to be around someone like that anyway.

5. God has a 'plan' which for some reason involves mass injustice. I don't buy it. If God is so omnipotent then why didn't he just make everythign run smoothly from the get-go.

So yeah. I wouldnt worship anyone who preaches chauvanism and racism anyway.

[sargebaldy]

I used to go with #5 (a form of a religion called deism, although I wasn't aware of that when I believed in it, I thought I had just come up with it :P), that God set up some basic rules(as in the Foundation series by Asimov, which is probably one reason I was a big fan of those books :P), such as evolution and then just let things go as they may, retiring somewhere. Except I think things have come out amazingly well. Organisms have evolved in order to survive, or they've died from not changing enough. Human bodies are so insanely complex and yet evolved from things so completely primitive. History has just worked together so perfectly, with so many variables and forces acting on one another, and yet we're all still alive and better off than ever.

Despite everything with plagues and wars and genocide and nuclear weapons we're still here and (I feel) are getting less and less retarded all the time. Things have always worked out in a way that I think is genius. Of course now I oppose deism, just as I oppose any other religion, for being an arrogant assumption with no real evidence.

[Scabbed Angel]

Considering everyone on these forums seems to be an athiest, agnostic, or an abandoned Christian, why is this discussion even going on? Everyone (except maybee Grimm) is just reiterating each others' points. Might as well start a thread that says "Why do you hate [insert subject that everyone on the forums either hates, doesn't believe in, or is otherwise apathetic to]" Don't get me wrong, the idea of it is interesting (I believe in God and that Christ exists) but I am always interested in an opposing viewpoint. Before I stopped going to church (and partly the reason) is something that a very intellegent priest said (hold you priest jokes, they are tired and pointless) "Doubt should not be discouraged, for it can only prove one's faith". Well, I don't believe in exactly what I've been taught.. I've read the bible and taken from it what is logically to me. Point: I think its an interesting idea, but a really boring argument.

Anyone who wines, god is dead, he doesn't love us, there is no god, etc.. succeeds in coming off pretty much the opposite of what they intend to; they appear that they are jaded towards this ideal that has in some way let them down, and their percieved bitterness/over-justification only serves in suggesting that they care a hell of a lot more about the subject than they are screaming they don't.

EX: Boy grows up with an absentee father. Talks venemously about how he hates his dad, his dad was never there, bitching and whining, and then ends with "But I don't give a shit." Amusing, really.

As far as those who are all "God let a church fall on a bunch of crippled nuns, therefore he doesn't exist or is a big asshole; they are unwilling to understand, or perhaps to purposely narrow-minded to grasp the full scale. This must be done on the set terms of:
-God created the universe and all it entails (i.e emotions, rules, circumstances.
-God therefore does not necassarily need to live by, or is bound by those rules. (i.e. he can do whatever the fuck he wants)
-On the grand scale of things, 80 years or so against eternity is not a long time at all and all the pains in this life are ultimately pretty insignificant. We are children... We come to God, "God you're an asshole, you let me get a papercut!!!" On the grand scale of things, in this life we learn that is not a big deal, but with out limited mental capacities, we tend to not see this/take it into account. Going off on that, would a parent be an asshole because they have their child put their hand over an open flame to feel how warm it is? So they know not to get burned?

Just my .02 in this redundant argument. Carry on.

[Liam]

darknation said:

If it's not God's will to drop the roof, then why is it not God's will to stop stop shit like that?

in most monotheistic religions today, God is the creator, not the ordinator. it's not His, Her, or It's place to interfere in human affairs, humankind would resent that God.

and dan, Christians do not perform ritual sacrifices and pilgrimages to gain the favor of God the Overseer and praise the bang-up job he's doing. they try with all their effort to live their life according to the moral code of laws in the bible.

the pessimism here disappoints even me. although even assuming that this planet is as shitty and downtrodden as the two of you would claim, after death a perfect world would await those who live according to the bible and have faith that Jesus died for their sins and all that...

[læmænt]

Scabbed Angel said:

Anyone who wines, god is dead, he doesn't love us, there is no god, etc.. succeeds in coming off pretty much the opposite of what they intend to; they appear that they are jaded towards this ideal that has in some way let them down, and their percieved bitterness/over-justification only serves in suggesting that they care a hell of a lot more about the subject than they are screaming they don't.

EX: Boy grows up with an absentee father. Talks venemously about how he hates his dad, his dad was never there, bitching and whining, and then ends with "But I don't give a shit." Amusing, really.

I don't know where you got the "I don't give a shit" part from. Many people here who aren't religious are still very interested in religion.

[sargebaldy]

Scabbed Angel said:

Considering everyone on these forums seems to be an athiest, agnostic, or an abandoned Christian, why is this discussion even going on?

well those three things aren't the same of course, but i agree. it isn't much fun poking at the opinions of people who don't have some ridiculously complex (i.e. normal) view of religion.

læmænt said:

I don't know where you got the "I don't give a shit" part from. Many people here who aren't religious are still very interested in religion.

i know i'm not. my only interest in religion is to make people realize religion is just another way of saying "the arrogant supernatural belief in something without any hard evidence".

[Fredrik]

sargebaldy said:

my only interest in religion is to make people realize religion means "arrogantly believing in something without any hard evidence"

That's a rather arrogant statement. A lot of people use religion as a source of hope and meaning that helps them feel better, entirely without being arrogant about it.

[sargebaldy]

Of course such an arrogance can have positive effects on people, I wouldn't dispute that. Ignorance is bliss, but that doesn't mean I won't oppose ignorance when I can. And why would you say it's not arrogant?

[læmænt]

Atheism is not a religion.

Let's just call it a "doctrine" because it is a doctrine. Religions are doctrines, too. And "doctrine" carries enough negative connotations :)

[Liam]

baldy, there is similarly no 'hard evidence' against the central beliefs of many religions...

[sargebaldy]

OK, I can accept that lament. That's kind of what I think of religion as, a doctrine of sorts. But I wouldn't sort agnosticism in the same category as atheism, because unlike atheists, agnostics don't believe in anything.

Liam the Bard said:

baldy, there is similarly no 'hard evidence' against the central beliefs of many religions...

of course not! which is why I'm agnostic not atheist. Any religion might be the one true one, but since you can't know for sure, choosing any one of them is arrogant.