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Grul

Old mappers, new game?

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A thought struck me when I surfed onto this site for the first time in a damn long time. How many of the guys that have been doing maps for Doom 1/2 will continue to do so for Doom 3? Personally, I find the idea interesting. Mapping for the new generation FPS games is really conceivable, since a good editor really is a selling point with the mod communities of today. Mapping for Doom 2 was conceivable since Doom 2 isn't complex with good editors like DCK. The new games are incredibly more complex, but the tools should be useful with the assets that ship with the game.

I wonder if mapping for Doom 3 can be as fun as mapping for Doom 2, though... I guess we will find out when the game is released!

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Certainly not me. Though I'll say yes to "New mappers, old game," since I haven't released any maps (yet.)

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Well, it'll certainly be far more difficult than mapping for classic DOOM, for you have to edit in 3D. I looked into worldcraft (editor for Half-Life I think) and it had four separate views, in which you can edit. So I guess that would make DOOM 3 four times harder to edit than classic DOOM.

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ShadowRunner said:

Three words:Hard As Fuck

Heh... I agree. DooM 3 maps are going to take forever to build, and this is if they let you edit the maps in the first place...
So much for speed mapping :)

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Ed said:

I will.

sweet.
Considering just how much farther third-party maps enhance the game beyond what the official maps have to offer, I'm psyched to see what good authors can accomplish with DOOM3.

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Terra-jin said:

Well, it'll certainly be far more difficult than mapping for classic DOOM, for you have to edit in 3D. I looked into worldcraft (editor for Half-Life I think) and it had four separate views, in which you can edit. So I guess that would make DOOM 3 four times harder to edit than classic DOOM.


I've mapped quite a lot with worldcraft, and it really is easier to create maps since you can move around and check texture alignment and everything right on the spot. You have to think in three dimensions with Doom in a limited way, and more so in quake1-based games, but to create basic building blocks is easier. I gets hairier when you try to create really detailed constructs within the map, of course. The really tough thing is to know how to plan your map so you avoid leaks and other things that appear whenever you edit in 3D.

Too bad though that new engines are moving towards only simple BSP geometry to shape the level, whereas the real stuff is made in 3DSMax and added to the level as static meshes. I think it's really limiting to have to create most of your geometry in an external program. Also you have to be very thorough to place hints for the engine, like antiportals and stuff like that the map runs fast.

So it gets a little technical, but the possibilities are really large.

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I'll have to see what kind of resources id make available to us. If most of it is changing scripts and sliding prefabs around, I won't be too interested. If, however, we have as much available to us as with, say, the HL engine(not a spectacular game, but lots of community talent) then I might try to convince my partner to make a mod. He seems bent on us making money for ourselves, though.

I'd at least try to make a map before I make a decision, if that's what you're wondering.

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actually...it would be fairly easy...for me anyways...i have made maps for unreal- for a LONG time...and if there is a map editor for it..(or if there will be)...it will most likely take after UnrealEd sence it is the best map/game editor i have ever seen and used...though...someone is bound to dissagree

edit: half-life is based of the quake 2 engine....

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Crono said:

actually...it would be fairly easy...for me anyways...i have made maps for unreal- for a LONG time...and if there is a map editor for it..(or if there will be)...it will most likely take after UnrealEd sence it is the best map/game editor i have ever seen and used...though...someone is bound to dissagree

edit: half-life is based of the quake 2 engine....

You may find it harder to adjust than you think, since in many ways the Unreal engine is built on opposite principles from ID's engines. Personally, I find true 3d editing far easier than Doom editing - at it's most fundamental level, it's like building out of lego - but I imagine lighting scenes efficiently will be one of the more difficult elements of Doom3 mapping. Also until computers get faster, as Grul said, the technical side of mapping will be important in keeping framerates up. I heard Doom3's hinting system is different from Q3's, which is a bastard since it took me quite a while to learn that one.

//Edit: Can't wait to play with the scripting either.
/?Edit2: Oh, and Half-Life is based off of the Quake[1] engine.

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pardon me but..SCRIPTING IS A BITCH!!!!....whew...i had to get that out...

edit: of course...i won't have to worry...i'm on a pII 533 so...i won't be running doom3 any time soon

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I remember at a time, I was so deep into mapping that I wouldn't even consider buying a new game unless it had some kind of editor avalable. I have about 20 unfinished levels for Quake-2-3, Serious Sam, Unreal Tournament, Red Alert 2 ect ect ect..

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I always hated mapping with a full 3d engine. Editing with Unreal and Serious Sam was very uncomfortable. I also remember making some Quake2/3 maps as well...but I just hated the way things were set up. I just not good with brushes/polygons.

I'll probably stick with the good ol' linedefs/sectors

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I hope so, cause you make some kickass maps! I too played with quake editing back in the day, and would like to try mapping for Doom3.

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I am not very good at creating fully 3D constructs. Plus, working in a full three dimensions confuses the hell out of me at times. And please dont get me started on leaks, as I loathe them wth every fibre of my being.

I'll probably pass on it.

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3d editing isn't hard for me, but I just have no inspiration in doing it. I get bored fast, unlike doom :P

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It may be hard, but patient people will produce editors and then very patient people will use them, and maybe 3 or 4 years after it comes out we'll have an impressive Doom 3 map.

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Having done levels for Doom2 + System Shock 2, I can tell you that it will without a shadow of a doubt be a HELL of alot harder to make levels for Doom 3 than it EVER was for Doom 1 or 2.

Levels for doom 1 or 2 could be done in a day, where as it would take you that same amount of time in newer games to make one room, or possibly even longer for that one room to be finished.

In newer engines, detail and lighting are so much more important than in older ones due to the quality of graphics + believability. By that I mean in making a room or area realistic looking.

In Doom you could quite easily get away with wiping up a room with a few barrels here and there or even less than that. But in newer age games you would need to put in things like lights, room decorations such as pipes, fans, tables, chairs, signs on walls etc, all to give the room that realistic look, to make it look like people actually lived or worked there or whatever. A blank room with no detail wont cut it. Adding in corpses is another level of detail also, and will need to be in poses (eg slumped against a wall, hanging half out a window etc), as simply putting a corpse on the floor will look bland and unrealistic.

Sound is a very important aspect to a room as well. If you are making a lab type room with computers or machinery, then having computer or machine-like noises going on would be very important for example. Choosing the right music to suit the theme of your level is alot more important now than it was before also.

One of the more annoying but useful things in newer engine games is the use of links. Links are used from one object or marker to another to do a specific action which may be anything from switching on a light, telling a AI (enemies, npc etc) where to patrol to, or even in determining what the player would find on a corpse.

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True..it takes me about a month or so to make a GOOD map for unreal...and that is without all the fine details, overall the hardest parts will be construction, scripts and sectors, sectors, and sectors....did i say SECTORS..i will be makeing d3 maps by AUG. and you people will be able to see my work...if d3 is out by then...of course.

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