Debate!

[doomedout]

Just got done with a grueling two hour debate, but had many questions after I left because it was so thought-provoking. Everybody left kind of unsatisfied because it ended in a deadlock, neither side could present an overwhelming argument and one could refute the other.

Anyways, just wanted to ask you people...

What is more important to society...a rebel or a conformist? (why)

[Linguica]

A conformist, because they get things done.

[Scabbed Angel]

A rebel because in order to build on a society, you must first be able to recognize and accept its problems. And have the balls to change them.

[Amaster]

I think it's prettty difficult to answer this question without more specific information. But I'd say both. Conflict (rebellion) helps avoid stagnation. But conformity helps create a unity. Besides, you need someone/something to rebel against.

[999cop]

I fail to see the point of comparing because they both are needed to apply to a certain circumstance and serve a purpose at the right time.

[Janderson]

Linguica said:

A conformist, because they get things done.

Are conformists the same as fascists.

[Amaster]

Actually one of the upsides to a fascist society is that things get done quickly.

[999cop]

Assmaster said:

Actually one of the upsides to a fascist society is that things get done quickly.

And don't overlook the fact that whether the outcome is a good thing or bad thing.

[dsm]

doomedout said:

Just got done with a grueling two hour debate, but had many questions after I left because it was so thought-provoking. Everybody left kind of unsatisfied because it ended in a deadlock, neither side could present an overwhelming argument and one could refute the other.

Anyways, just wanted to ask you people...

What is more important to society...a rebel or a conformist? (why)

I think you look at things a bit too much in just black and white.

We've got extremist conformists (bad!) and we've got extremist rebels (bad!). My sixth sense says that both are important, but both can become a problem as well. If either of the two gains too much of a foothold over the other, we have imbalance (bad!).

So no, I don't think I can answer that question in a satisfying manner.

[sargebaldy]

Assmaster said:

Actually one of the upsides to a fascist society is that things get done quickly.

I don't see that as an upside, I'd prefer the gov't to just shut up and do nothing.

[Sharessa]

sargebaldy said:

I don't see that as an upside, I'd prefer the gov't to just shut up and do nothing.

Then it wouldn't be a government.

[Fredrik]

Which is more important to human life, oxygen or water? Discussions of this kind are completely useless.

[doomedout]

Although I do agree with the notion that both are integral for society; in a debate one cannot afford to be diplomatic, even if the other side has a legitimate argument.

In case your wondering, I was the very few to view the conformist as being more important to society. Granted, the rebels in the past have infused change which was necessary, but it was on the reliance on some level of comformity within their ranks to be able to implement the ambition behind the change.

Furthermore, society cannot function constructively if they are rebels setting the bar, it seems strange to me that a rebellion has to follow another has to follow another. There must be some level of conformity to ensure stability. That in itself makes the "conformist" more important to society that the "rebel".

However, after the debate, I can't really say which one is more important because both are necessary, but which one supercedes the other?

[doomedout]

Fredrik said:

Which is more important to human life, oxygen or water? Discussions of this kind are completely useless.

Well, as members of the debate team, we can't really come up with our own topics at all. Ironically enough, it was a general consensus among the facility and some unknown student org. that formulated this discussion. Its not useless if it spurs some thought now is it? Also, there was a very large turn-out, intense discussions (which to my amusement got personal too) and really funny comments. All and all, a very good time "worth" spending. I wouldn't call it useless.

[insertwackynamehere]

There are no true rebels anymore (just posers and wannabee statement makers) so it depends on what shape you think the world is in right know IMO.

Therefore many rebels are actually conformists, conforming with rebellion.

[Sharessa]

insertwackynamehere said:

There are no true rebels anymore (just posers and wannabee statement makers) so it depends on what shape you think the world is in right know IMO.

Therefore many rebels are actually conformists, conforming with rebellion.

That's just stupid. And you're wrong on at least the first part.

[DooMBoy]

I think you have to be a little bit of both to get anywhere in this world.

[Quast]

999cop said:

And don't overlook the fact that whether the outcome is a good thing or bad thing.

Good or bad is in the eye of the beholder.

insertwackynamehere said:

There are no true rebels anymore (just posers and wannabee statement makers) so it depends on what shape you think the world is in right know IMO.

Go say that in in some parts of Africa or South America once...

Therefore many rebels are actually conformists, conforming with rebellion.

So? They are rebeling against something. Perhaps the government or a tyrant of some kind.

[bartwart]

The rebel bags the babes while the conformist is stuck home taking care of the kids :/

[LorD BaZTArD]

insertwackynamehere
Therefore many rebels are actually conformists, conforming with rebellion

I'm gonna agree with Wacky on this one. Why? Well for starters, you could look at goths. I'm not saying every goth is following someone else, but alot of so called "goths" only do it for attention or because they saw someone once and they thought it was cool. The worst cases seem to think that they are rebelling against conformity by doing this, yet when it comes to debating the subject with them they can't come up with their own reasons.

[Quast]

Goths? WTF? I thought this was about civil wars and shit, not highschool drama.

[AndrewB]

Actually, goths are a good example.

Goths goths goths goths goths goths goths goths....

[bartwart]

goths goths goths High School Jock!

<to the tune of badger badger badger>

[sargebaldy]

Yeah, I realized some time ago Goths are really conformists because they stay to their own clique and conform to one another. To be a true rebel you have to think independently.

[Scientist]

I'll try to keep it short, since you people don't like to read. ;-)

Okay, to answer the question lets look at the paradigm theory of Thomas Kuhn...

paradigm:
A set of assumptions, concepts, values, and practices that constitutes a way of viewing reality for the community that shares them, especially in an intellectual discipline.

Each group has it's own paradigm. The paradigm of socialism for instance includes the belief that abolishing private property is a necessary step in realising social justice. This paradigm also includes typical socialist symbols such as the red star, hammer and sickle and the color red.

The paradigm of liberalism in contrast includes the belief that an enlightened middle class can reform the operations of capitalism so as to produce social justice without infringing on the rights of private property. People that fall under this paradigma will also not use the mentioned symbols.

Each structured group of poeple, be it marxists, liberalists, anarchists, christians, goths or doomers has their own paradigm.
In other words everybody in such a group shares assumptions, concepts, values, and practices with all other members of the group. This is the strength of the group. Conformists are needed in such a group to avoid discord within the paradigm, which could lead to the weakening of the group.

However new discoveries and advancements can lead to a shift in how people view reality.
example:
Before Galileo it was part of sciences paradigm the believe that the earth was flat.
Along came Galileo and said the earth was round.
Now the paradigm of modern science includes the idea that the earth is round.

A paradigm shift has thus accured.

During history mankinds view on reality has often changed. In other words history is a constantly renewing sequences of paradigms.
this can be represented in the following image: Knowledge Lightning. (presumably, at each shift the view of reality moves a bit closer towards the thurth)
Conformists are needed to uphold existing paradigms and rebels for the paradigm shifts.

Therefore both conformist and rebels are needed.

[læmænt]

any society is fucked without either conformists or rebels

[fraggle]

Janderson said:

Are conformists the same as fascists.

Are rebels the same as terrorists?

[Quast]

fraggle said:

Are rebels the same as terrorists?

In the eyes of some, probably yes.

[Sharessa]

Some would call them terrorists, but these boys have simply been...misguided.

[Captain Red]

I am whatever suits my particular values at any given time.