The /newstuff Chronicles #170

[The Ultimate DooMer]

chilvence said:

I just had a fiddle with Grove in doom builder, added a bit of void space in the large gaps and the framerate improved a fair bit. Would it be out of my place to upload a copy somewhere?

Better still, have one-sided lines with Line_Horizon constantly sticking close to the treeline texture all the way round the edges of the playing area, and also as columns inside the gaps that are not accessible (unless you've already done that).

[cyber-menace]

At least I only have a medium computer. This allows me to check frame rates for the standard community. Like on my Map20 (It's being redone monster and cutscene wise) I put one sided walls in the middle of nowwhere. Why? because I was told it would vastly improve the framerate, and they weren't joking. From about 10FPS to something much more reasonable. (BTW: I've redone the first two armies, and they are now both only 150 monsters in size on UV. Much more reasonable than 650!)

[chilvence]

The Ultimate DooMer said:

Better still, have one-sided lines with Line_Horizon constantly sticking close to the treeline texture all the way round the edges of the playing area, and also as columns inside the gaps that are not accessible (unless you've already done that).

Yeah, Im still fiddling with it, and I have changed it to that. The framerate is still sluggish, but it is playable now without frustration. I've enlarged the treelines in some places, since it is so dark there isnt alot of difference visually. If I can work out a way to re-insert the map, I'll get in contact with B.P.R.D and ask him if I can upload it.

This map has such a mellow feel, it would be a shame if only people with the highest of the high specs get to enjoy it, even then at a slow framerate.

Intresting bit of info about that line crossing thing. I've just been using zennode since it comes with DB, but I'll give warm a go. The problem isnt a rendering one, its just that since all the map lines have the same sector number, they cut through buildings and cause the player to get stuck in the floor etc.

[The Ultimate DooMer]

If your lines are crossing into other sectors, then that's the problem - you can cross lines without using vertices as much as you want (I've done that in one of my maps) as long as the sector boundaries are adhered to.

btw, why don't you stick a load of health/ammo in while you're at it? (as it badly needs some)

[Little Faith]

Well, regarding the ammo balance

B.P.R.D told me per email that he didn't expect people to kill neither Smugla, nor the last rush of barons and hell knights. In fact he made the two paths leading to the three hands in order to give the player a possibility to divert the barons down one path.

If neither Smugla nor the last barons are to be killed the ammo balance are rather neat.


If you find all the secrets including the super secret and are aiming for a maxkill the ammo balance is about spot on with opportunity for a few misses.


I dunno, Should a maxkill be always be possible without finding any secrets? If yes, the ammo balance need to be tweaked, if not the ammo balance is quite OK indeed.



Still slipping a few one-sideds in without hurting anything would be extremely nice. Some of the fights are complicated by your low framerate.

[Fredrik]

Little Faith said:

I dunno, Should a maxkill be always be possible without finding any secrets?

It should (unless there are monsters in the secret areas, of course).

[The Flange Peddler]

I don't think framerate is Grove's biggest problem. Hunting for stupid hidden switches in pitch black is much more of a pain in the ass than the framerate problems caused by all the trees. And the ammo balance too. This is Doom, most people expect to be able to kill all the enemies.

[Grazza]

Obviously there aren't any hard-and-fast rules on this. But the concensus, I believe, is that it should be possible to exit a map without finding any *real* secrets - i.e. ones that are very well hidden (completely unmarked doors, etc.). Grove flouts that one a bit, but it's such a non-standard map in so many ways that I doubt anyone should be too bothered.

The standard "Max" category involves finding all secrets, so the question of killing everything without finding all the secrets doesn't tend to come up. However, there are plenty of maps in the classic megawads where you only get enough ammo to kill everything if you find most of the secrets. Certainly that goes for AV.

If I had a bit of time to spare, I might have a go at recording a Max on Grove. Sadly I don't. :( I think all I'd have time for this week would be a sucky -nomonsters demo. Anyway, the ammo balance seems OK for Max.

BTW, I get a good framerate throughout when playing the map in GLBoom (just the odd moment when it drops below normal, but nothing troublesome). And everything works, apart from two small visual glitches (two little GL holes in the floor - one near the start, and the other near the blue key). And it's not too dark either. Heh, you might think B.P.R.D. had made the map with GLBoom in mind, except that he kept recommending Zdoom in his text-file.

[Little Faith]

The Flange Peddler said:

I don't think framerate is Grove's biggest problem. Hunting for stupid hidden switches in pitch black is much more of a pain in the ass than the framerate problems caused by all the trees. And the ammo balance too. This is Doom, most people expect to be able to kill all the enemies.

The only switch that I still think is "too much" is the switch in the cave.

[Grazza]

Yes; even after reading your walkthrough, I still needed to look in an editor to find that one. That sort of secret switch should be just to find a bit of extra ammo or a power-up - not to find a key.

[cyber-menace]

After all of this talk about Grove I might just go play it... whenever I find the time to do so. The school week is always too damn busy for doing much else, but school and homework...

[Hellbent]

omg the ads on this site are getting unruly...

how do I download the wads?

Please... no Linguica type responses....

I click and it has the second half of the url, but not the first for downloading the wad. Real convenient.

[Grazza]

Hellbent said:

omg the ads on this site are getting unruly...

One solution is to disable javascript. There are others, including not using IE.

I click and it has the second half of the url, but not the first for downloading the wad. Real convenient.

It took me a while to realize what on earth you meant. I think you mean that when you click on the link to the idgames database, for the filename, it gives, e.g. "levels/doom2/Ports/g-i/grove.zip".

OK, the archive is located at ftp://archives.3dgamers.com/pub/idgames and the primary download server is at ftp://3darchives.in-span.net/pub/idgames, and there are several mirrors. A list of full URLs to download the file from the primary download server and the mirrors is given on the right-hand side of the page, where it says "Supported mirrors" and "Unsupported mirrors".

[Hellbent]

Andy Olivera said:

It works, though some nodebuilders handle it better than others. I've always used Zennode or WARM, and of the two WARM handles this particular scenario much more efficiently. What builder are you using?

what kind of effects can you get out of crossing lines without making a vertex connect the intersection? I never tried that.

[Hellbent]

Grazza said:

One solution is to disable javascript. There are others, including not using IE.

It took me a while to realize what on earth you meant. I think you mean that when you click on the link to the idgames database, for the filename, it gives, e.g. "levels/doom2/Ports/g-i/grove.zip".

OK, the archive is located at ftp://archives.3dgamers.com/pub/idgames and the primary download server is at ftp://3darchives.in-span.net/pub/idgames, and there are several mirrors. A list of full URLs to download the file from the primary download server and the mirrors is given on the right-hand side of the page, where it says "Supported mirrors" and "Unsupported mirrors".

I was afraid of such a technical response. I asked mxp128 and he linked me directly: http://www.gamers.org/pub/idgames/levels/doom2/Ports/g-i/grove.zip

now why couldn't they just include that in the url and make it clickable like everyone else on the interweb?

[Hellbent]

How do I get anywhere in the grove.wad? I got some mushrooms which were benign - actually, they were actually beneficial. But how do I get anywhere? It seems there should be a path through the forest grove. But I am fenced in my trees! If only I had a chainsaw....

Is there something I'm missing? In the map is that supposed to be a key? Where you start. Am I supposed to find a key? I just - I tried everything and couldn't go anywhere. I don't want it told to me, but there might be nothing for it. Small hint maybe?

[Little Faith]

Read my Walkthrough.

[Bloodshedder]

Hellbent said:

now why couldn't they just include that in the url and make it clickable like everyone else on the interweb?

Because the idgames database is a very useful tool that shows categorized information about each Wad, and also allows user reviews. Just click the bloody Indiana mirror on the sidebar and you can download the Wad that you are viewing.

[Hellbent]

Little Faith said:

Read my Walkthrough.

thanks faith.

thanks bloodshedder.

[Hellbent]

can anyone recommend a good single player map that[boldface]isn't too complex/eye candy heavy/and overpopulated? Thanks. Preferably from /newstuff in the last 6 months.

[Linguica]

Hellbent said:

Please... no Linguica type responses....

the hell

[Andy Olivera]

Hellbent said:

what kind of effects can you get out of crossing lines without making a vertex connect the intersection? I never tried that.

I've seen it used most often for 3D bridges. People are either too lazy to create all the vertices themselves, or they think it'll help because there's fewer lines. The problem is, when breaking down the level into Segs, the compiler adds its own vertices because it has to split the lines. In reality, the section ends up being more complex than if you'd split and joined the lines by hand.

For example, while I was working on the 3D bridge section in HR2-19, I tried redrawing the bridges without joining the lines to see if it would help. Well, Zennode always ended up with at least a hundred nodes more than WARM, even though Zennode comes out with a lower node count in almost every other circumstance. When I joined all the lines, Zennode had the lower count. I don't know why, but WARM handles the situation with far, far fewer splits than Zennode(that's why I said it's more "efficient").

In short, using overlapping lines offers no advantages, so I'd recommend avoiding them. Does that make any sense? :-)

[Hellbent]

Linguica said:

the hell

I remember you not giving a very clear answer as how to upload to /newstuff about a year ago. I was complaining that the directions on how to do it were rather paltry.

[Hellbent]

DC is back up btw.

[mystery8]

Damn, Grove & Phocas Island are very nice. Thank goodness for IDBEHOLDL though :)

[Martin Howe]

Cyb said:

I agree 100%, grove is damn near a work of genius, but I can't stand playing it for too long because the framerate is really choppy (I may try playing fullscreen at like 640x400 later).

Yeah, Grove is a "flawed genius" kinda thing. Not only is it slow, even on a P4/2.6/1GB machine, but there are LOOOOADS of map errors. GLBSP can't handle it and GLEDGE just goes insane, sticking huge shards of map all over the place. Even ZDoom is humbled by it :-)

It has such massive potential to be fantastically good... what a waste:-( :-(

[The Ultimate DooMer]

Andy Olivera said:

I've seen it used most often for 3D bridges. People are either too lazy to create all the vertices themselves, or they think it'll help because there's fewer lines. The problem is, when breaking down the level into Segs, the compiler adds its own vertices because it has to split the lines. In reality, the section ends up being more complex than if you'd split and joined the lines by hand.

Does this method slow the framerate down compared to splitting the lines yourself? I had to use this method for some pretty fancy architecture (namely outdoor buildings with a crossbeam roof, see the last screenie of this page) and it's pretty choppy at 700MHz and at 1.6GHz. Would the framerate be better if the lines were split by me rather than ZDBSP?

[Andy Olivera]

The Ultimate DooMer said:

Would the framerate be better if the lines were split by me rather than ZDBSP?

Yes, but there's no telling by how much. Like I said, it makes the area more complex than it needs to be, node-wise. Try connecting them and see if it makes a difference. It could be that the area is just really complicated, anyway.

[Foofoo]

Martin Howe said:

there are LOOOOADS of map errors. GLBSP can't handle it and GLEDGE just goes insane, sticking huge shards of map all over the place. Even ZDoom is humbled by it :-)
:-( :-(

I don't see what the problem should be. Except for a little crummy framerate (which isn't THAT BAD for god sake) it should be fine in Zdoom. Maybe you should defragment your drive or something- i dunno.

[The Ultimate DooMer]

Foofoo said:

Except for a little crummy framerate (which isn't THAT BAD for god sake)

It is when it makes the map unplayable. (made worse by the lack of health and ammo)