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Zoost

Moving and bobbing

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To celebrate the fact that it is more than 3 years ago the first footage of doom3 was shown to us (the Tokio/Apple/GF3 movie). I would like to discuss ... moving around in D3.

In DOOM a bobbing horizon when moving forward was added to add a feel for realism. It lookes like you are "walking". For some reason unknown to me this effect was abandonded in later titles from idsoftware. (motion sickness complains?)

I think this effect should be brought back, but not for walking, but only for jumping down. You should bend down through the knees and focus on the ground for a short moment. This would add to the feel that you actually jump down off something and makes it more "dangerous" to jump down off stuff because you are disoriented for a short while (beacuse you are made to look down to the ground).

You might argue that when jumping from a larger object, you should also let go of your weapon, so you can use your arms to absorb the jump (like IRL). I would like to see that too.

I think this would add to the feeling you are really "in" the game. The fluent motion in Quake 3 is nice for that type of gameply. (It doesnot really make a difference if you jumping down, climbing, walking stairs or whatever) But I think in D3 it might be a good thing.

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Paul Jaquays, former Id employee, complained that he got sick from the constant bobbing, so I highly doubt it'll return since it's in Id's own interest that nobody suffers any sicknesses from playing their games.

A shame, 'cause I loved it too and I felt that later FPS titles lacked the feel of being a ground-pounding grunt.

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When youre walking in real life the horizon doesnt bob up and down, unless youre pissed or TRYING to make it bob up and down, so why should it in a game

The 'weapon bob' of doom should return though, a lot of modern games just have your gun floating freely in front of you whatever you are doing

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Some subtle bobbing would be nice. And I like Zoost's idea bout jumping. Something should definitely happen to the screen when you're jumping or falling.

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I think another reason why they dropped the screen bobbing was that free mouselook was introduced with Quake, so that feature became relatively pointless (or would you notice screen bobbing when you walk and look arround freely?)

deathbringer said:

The 'weapon bob' of doom should return though, a lot of modern games just have your gun floating freely in front of you whatever you are doing


I don´t know to which modern games you are refering, but ALL of id Softwares shooters (that came out after Doom) had weapon bobbing and even weapon idle animations integrated. Why would they leave out someting like this?

Zoost said:

I think this effect should be brought back, but not for walking, but only for jumping down. You should bend down through the knees and focus on the ground for a short moment. This would add to the feel that you actually jump down off something and makes it more "dangerous" to jump down off stuff because you are disoriented for a short while (beacuse you are made to look down to the ground).



Interesting idea, that could work well.

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dsm said:

it's in Id's own interest that nobody suffers any sicknesses from playing their games.

Wouldn't that be the exact opposite of their interest? :P

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Fredrik said:

Wouldn't that be the exact opposite of their interest? :P

I'd have less of a hazzle respecting you if you didn't troll so fucking much ;-)

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If they didn't want to make you sick, surely they wouldn't put all the gore and hellish stuff in their games?

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Fredrik said:

If they didn't want to make you sick, surely they wouldn't put all the gore and hellish stuff in their games?

Aren't you "Mr. Best Guy in the Entire Fucking Universe"?

If so, aren't you intelligent enough to understand what I meant? I thought it was pretty obvious, but then again - I'm just an ignorant Doom Zealot ;-)

Anyways, the deal is that some people suffer from some kind of motion sickness and that apparently, some people get this urge to throw up when the screen bobs up and down (Bob doesn't like going up and down all the time either!).
That means that people who are otherwise ok with sickening contents would elect not to play an FPS, just because they get motion sick from playing it and Id don't want anyone in their target group to get ill (note: their target group does not comprise people who are faint of heart or get offended/sick from watching "evil/twisted" scenery).

It's really sad that I have to cut things out like this for people.

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dsm said:

If so, aren't you intelligent enough to understand what I meant?

Yes.

Congratulations.

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Ultraviolet said:

*cough* ZDoom.


You shouldn't leave home without your jacket! *cough* *cough*. But seriously what the thing with ZDoom.

Does anybody remember that helmet that could influence your sense of balance, by sending out some signal to the balance organ (or whatever that is called in English). It was used for flight simulators or something.. Never heard of that thing again...

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Just have the bobbing motion centralized on your crosshairs. The player's head is still moving up and down, but the eye(camera) remains focused on whatever you're looking at(just like in real life).

On another note, I never understood how characters in games managed to keep their weapons so goddamned still while they were running full-tilt. Wouldn't you have to suffer some sort of speed penalty if you wanted to run with your weapon at the ready? On top of losing a large amount of accuracy when firing, of course...

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Numbermind said:

On another note, I never understood how characters in games managed to keep their weapons so goddamned still while they were running full-tilt. Wouldn't you have to suffer some sort of speed penalty if you wanted to run with your weapon at the ready? On top of losing a large amount of accuracy when firing, of course...

Could be a controlled run. I can do this... controlled knees-only underswing, somewhere between my high-end walking speed and my high-end running speed, that keeps the path of my head level and my body mostly stable, so I'd imagine anyone carrying a weapon can do that as well, remaining mostly accurate.

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Well in doom 3 you have your stamina bar so you aint gonna be running for long, anyways im not gonna run, i dont wanna accidently run into a hell knight with my weapon bouncing around so i cant aim straight. :D
But i have to admit, i do miss the dodgy bobbing of the original doom in newer games.

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Numbermind said:

On another note, I never understood how characters in games managed to keep their weapons so goddamned still while they were running full-tilt. Wouldn't you have to suffer some sort of speed penalty if you wanted to run with your weapon at the ready? On top of losing a large amount of accuracy when firing, of course...

Uh..like, it's just a game - not a simulator.
Would you be able to aim well if they made it realistic and had the gun moving all over the place? No, and it'd be freaking annoying and detract from the fun, hence it stays unrealistic like that.

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dsm said:

Uh..like, it's just a game - not a simulator.

realism = emersiveness, thats why you liked Doom

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Zoost said:

Does anybody remember that helmet that could influence your sense of balance, by sending out some signal to the balance organ (or whatever that is called in English). It was used for flight simulators or something.. Never heard of that thing again...


I think I heard it to be banned because it messed up some guys sense for balance permenently. not sure tho.

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Zoost said:

realism = emersiveness, thats why you liked Doom


Realism is NOT equal to immersiveness! An overdone realistic simulation based game would have such an awkward and annoying gameplay that it would kill any immersion.

To be immersed in a game, it doesn´t have simply to be "realistic" (realism is one of the aspects but not the main one). Surreal games can also be extremely immersive. It´s more a matter of coherent design, athmosphere and plausibility.

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Tetzlaff said:

Realism is NOT equal to immersiveness!

.

According to Webster's dictionary immersiveness is not a word, however in the world of computer game design it is quite a crucial word. Webster defines immerse to mean, "to plunge into something that surrounds or covers" and to engross and absorb.

Well i think reality is the most immersive thing there is. I agree that the context of the thing that is simulated is more important. A simulation of watching grass grow can be very lifelike but boring as hell.

If the context is right. for example, fighting demons on mars, I would say that everything that adds to a real feel, the suggestion that it could be real adds to the immersiveness. Therefore I continue to say realism is immersiveness.

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But surreal and irreal things are as well a big part of life. Games can take those surreal aspects (for example: hellish demons) and make something with it. Therefore I continue to say that realism isn´t immersiveness.

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That is what i meant, your interaction with the world should be real (creates immersiveness). The world itself can be unreal.

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Zoost said:

realism = emersiveness, thats why you liked Doom

Cool realism that adds to gameplay, yes - not overdone, gimmicky realism that kills the fun. That's why I liked Doom - no crappy realism that messed up gameplay.

Oh and learn to use a dictionary.

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Moving and boobing has been in Quake 2 , quake 3, and TEam arena... why would they stop?

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Cool realism that adds to gameplay, yes - not overdone, gimmicky realism that kills the fun


ahh, "the getaway" syndrome hehe

I don´t know to which modern games you are refering


er, it was SOF2 actually, though there is bobbing in that..sort of

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Wobbo said:

Moving and boobing has been in Quake 2 , quake 3, and TEam arena... why would they stop?

The bobbing in those games aren't as pronounced. Only the gun moves from side to side. You don't see the walls closest to you move up and down like they did in Doom - I think that's the catch here.

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